The future of MotoGP?

mylexicon · Jul 28, 2014

Dennis Noyes wrote two good articles this summer about the performance of MotoGP bikes and the challenges ahead of the sport.

Brembo Engineer Lorenzo Bortolozzo & Andrea Dovizioso- MotoGP Brake Issues

Faster And Faster, Part 2- MotoGP Racing Speeds Raise Safety Concerns

Since MotoGP bikes weigh 160kg and reach 225mph, MotoGP appears to be reaching its performance threshold for horsepower, weight, and lap times (possibly).

Where does the sport go from here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sia_sk_K2q8

povol · Jul 28, 2014

mylexicon said:
Dennis Noyes wrote two good articles this summer about the performance of MotoGP bikes and the challenges ahead of the sport.

Brembo Engineer Lorenzo Bortolozzo & Andrea Dovizioso- MotoGP Brake Issues

Faster And Faster, Part 2- MotoGP Racing Speeds Raise Safety Concerns

Since MotoGP bikes weigh 160kg and reach 225mph, MotoGP appears to be reaching its performance threshold for horsepower, weight, and lap times (possibly).

Where does the sport go from here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sia_sk_K2q8

All they have to do is look at the 10's of thousands of empty seats at Indy, Talladega and Daytona to see if it matters to the fans how fast they go. We have had this debate numerous times, and if they slow the bikes down like car racing has slowed the cars down, many fans will not see the reason to go watch what they have seen ten years ago, A rider or driver who calls for slower speeds is scared and needs to be replaced by a younger hungrier talent. Riding on the edge of disaster is the show, its what makes us admire what they do.They may be able to get away with keeping it where it is, but cutting speeds 15-20 mph would be catastrophic to the sport.

mylexicon · Jul 29, 2014

I don't know, Pov. The 800s were slower in a straight line than the 990s, but you're still here.

povol · Jul 29, 2014

mylexicon said:
I don't know, Pov. The 800s were slower in a straight line than the 990s, but you're still here.

The top speed record was held by an 800cc bike until it was broken this year. This whole top speed argument is ........, how often do we see crashes on straights, rarely. If the speeds scare a rider, he has 2 options, brake earlier, or get the .... out of the series.

mylexicon · Jul 29, 2014

povol said:
The top speed record was held by an 800cc bike until it was broken this year. This whole top speed argument is ........, how often do we see crashes on straights, rarely. If the speeds scare a rider, he has 2 options, brake earlier, or get the .... out of the series.

We got the back story on Dani's Mugello record. The numbers were debunked by people in the paddock, and the top speed figures were supposedly attributable to some over-zealous Italians who wanted to hype the GP.

Similarly, Noyes points out that the official data isn't reliable, since the braking zones are set to be compatible with all 3 classes. The current top speeds are significantly understated in many instances, according to Brembo.

povol · Jul 29, 2014

mylexicon said:
We got the back story on Dani's Mugello record. The numbers were debunked by people in the paddock, and the top speed figures were supposedly attributable to some over-zealous Italians who wanted to hype the GP.

Similarly, Noyes points out that the official data isn't reliable, since the braking zones are set to be compatible with all 3 classes. The current top speeds are significantly understated in many instances, according to Brembo.

The numbers were scrutinized, then approved, just like any official record and the braking points were the same then as they are now. I read the articles a while back and i personally think Dorna is missing out on an excellent marketing tool by understating the speeds attained, it makes no sense for them to fudge numbers to the low side.

kilowatt · Jul 31, 2014

The MotoGP circus has become Big Entertainment with obligatory Big Marketing. As with any entertainment, the success of the whole thing depends on the quality of the show. Outright speed is cool and all, but it's rather one-dimensional and I don't think it's really necessary for a good show. I routinely find Moto3 and Moto2 races more entertaining than MotoGP. They invented drag racing for folks that care about nothing but speed.

With that said, some of the coolest races I have ever been to were the Formula USA events organized by Doug Gonda back in the '90's. They (at least at the beginning) were true "run whatcha brung" races. Kenny Roberts would show up with a couple of YZR500s, methanol burning GSXRs, turbocharged stuff, you name it. You couldn't wait to see what was going to happen! The lawyers probably killed that off.

Anyway, even though the manufacturers are big stakeholders in GP racing, I think it's time for their influence on rules making to be greatly reduced. Their motivations are to use racing as a development lab and to be completely dominant. That second part runs counter to the greater necessity of putting on a good show.

The coming of the spec ECU in MotoGP is probably a step in the right direction. In a perfect world, that ECU would not be capable of traction control, wheelie control, gps-based mapping, etc. The next step might be adoption of a spec engine as in Moto2. Keep the power in proportion to tire and brake technology and the safety issues are managed. If the OEMs take their toys and go home I think DORNA has the resources to commission a respectable MotoGP engine from the industry outside of the usual suspects (the KR/Proton effort was pretty impressive).

As in the smaller classes, what will make MotoGP racing consistently great is large grids on relatively equal machinery where there's 15 guys that could win on any day. Tire-smoking slides giant power wheelies will be icing on the cake.

Cheers!

povol · Jul 31, 2014

kilowatt said:
The next step might be adoption of a spec engine as in Moto2.

Blasphemy, i was only slightly disagreeing with much of what you said, this is the worst idea ever for a prototype racing series

If the OEMs take their toys and go home I think DORNA has the resources to commission a respectable MotoGP engine from the industry outside of the usual suspects (the KR/Proton effort was pretty impressive).

Without the OEM's Moto GP dies a quick death

As in the smaller classes, what will make MotoGP racing consistently great is large grids on relatively equal machinery where there's 15 guys that could win on any day.

There has never been a prototype series of any kind where there were 15 guys capable of winning races. Personally, i cant think of any racing series on the planet except for Nascar where there are 15 legitimate possible winners on a given Sunday.

mylexicon · Jul 31, 2014

kilowatt said:
The MotoGP circus has become Big Entertainment with obligatory Big Marketing. As with any entertainment, the success of the whole thing depends on the quality of the show. Outright speed is cool and all, but it's rather one-dimensional and I don't think it's really necessary for a good show. I routinely find Moto3 and Moto2 races more entertaining than MotoGP. They invented drag racing for folks that care about nothing but speed.

With that said, some of the coolest races I have ever been to were the Formula USA events organized by Doug Gonda back in the '90's. They (at least at the beginning) were true "run whatcha brung" races. Kenny Roberts would show up with a couple of YZR500s, methanol burning GSXRs, turbocharged stuff, you name it. You couldn't wait to see what was going to happen! The lawyers probably killed that off.

Anyway, even though the manufacturers are big stakeholders in GP racing, I think it's time for their influence on rules making to be greatly reduced. Their motivations are to use racing as a development lab and to be completely dominant. That second part runs counter to the greater necessity of putting on a good show.

The coming of the spec ECU in MotoGP is probably a step in the right direction. In a perfect world, that ECU would not be capable of traction control, wheelie control, gps-based mapping, etc. The next step might be adoption of a spec engine as in Moto2. Keep the power in proportion to tire and brake technology and the safety issues are managed. If the OEMs take their toys and go home I think DORNA has the resources to commission a respectable MotoGP engine from the industry outside of the usual suspects (the KR/Proton effort was pretty impressive).

As in the smaller classes, what will make MotoGP racing consistently great is large grids on relatively equal machinery where there's 15 guys that could win on any day. Tire-smoking slides giant power wheelies will be icing on the cake.

Cheers!

Moto2 and Moto3 are fun to watch, but prototyping is what keeps people coming back through the decades.

kilowatt · Jul 31, 2014

povol said:
Blasphemy, i was only slightly disagreeing with much of what you said, this is the worst idea ever for a prototype racing series

The bikes would be prototypes at least to the same degree as the Moto2 machines. I think the purity of the mechanical DNA should be secondary to quality, competitive racing.

I believe Dorna agrees with this (they are TV people after all), but is currently too afraid of losing the OEMs.

povol · Jul 31, 2014

kilowatt said:
The bikes would be prototypes at least to the same degree as the Moto2 machines. I think the purity of the mechanical DNA should be secondary to quality, competitive racing.

I believe Dorna agrees with this (they are TV people after all), but is currently too afraid of losing the OEMs.

This more than a competition between riders. Its is also a competition between engineers employed by the different OEM's. Their job is to build a machine to beat the competitor. If they can build one that wins every race, more power to them. Moto 2 is not as popular as you think it is. People dont attend a GP event to see a Moto2 event with GP as a bonus. Moto 2 doesnt give you anything that WSS or DSB doesnt give you.

33 Coupe · Jul 31, 2014

kilowatt said:
The bikes would be prototypes at least to the same degree as the Moto2 machines.

Exactly why Moto GP should never be like Moto 2. We already have it. Moto 2 is not a lot sower than Moto GP, yet it is nowhere near as popular as Moto GP, the riders use it as a stepping stone to Moto GP & most fans only show a passing interest due to it being a part of the GP circus. If it was a stand alone series, it would be dead within a couple of years.

Riders don't aspire to be in Moto GP because of the close racing. They want to ride the fastest, highest tech bikes on the planet & this is why Moto GP is the most popular series in bike racing, the best riders on prototype bikes. If close racing is what the fans want, then Moto 3 & Moto 2 would be the most popular series, and they are not even close. Moto GP has been this way for 50 years & is still the most popular bike racing on earth, so it must be doing something right.

Edit - Sorry for repeating what Pov has said above.

mylexicon · Jul 31, 2014

I understand the push for more entertainment, but spec racing is not the way to make it happen. Spec racing works in some forms of car racing, notably NASCAR, because the races are redneck demolition derbies. Motorcycle racing cannot "entertain" people in the same way.

Furthermore, the riders make a much bigger difference so it's possible that the racing could become less entertaining.

33 Coupe · Jul 31, 2014

True Lex. The riders are the difference & they are so damn good these days. There may only be 1/10 of a second between riders, which is miniscule, but they can hit that 1/10 every lap for 30 laps & at the end that adds up to 3 seconds. Some may find it boring, but that is why they are the best in the world, consistent & no mistakes.

kilowatt · Aug 1, 2014

Sure, MotoGP is the most popular class for fans because the bikes are the baddest things on the planet and the riders are the best in the world. This would still be true with 275 HP spec engines with no electronic rider aids.

Dorna needs to do something to fill the grid with quality machinery. I recall times during the 2 stroke era where there was maybe a dozen bikes on the grid - only 2 or 3 capable of winning, as is historically typical for the class. Kind of pathetic. Dorna's failed CRT experiment didn't fool anybody, but at least they are trying something. They have to solve this problem because if there is another global economic downturn that results in 4 bikes lining up for the start, Many fans will lose interest. I would.

mylexicon · Aug 1, 2014

It's called motor-cycle racing.

Without engine prototyping, the series is more or less spec, regardless of the regulatory semantics. We've already taken a big step down the road to perdition with the 81mm 1000cc rule. I'm not sure we'd benefit from another step in the same direction.

povol · Aug 1, 2014

kilowatt said:
Sure, MotoGP is the most popular class for fans because the bikes are the baddest things on the planet and the riders are the best in the world. This would still be true with 275 HP spec engines with no electronic rider aids.

Dorna needs to do something to fill the grid with quality machinery. I recall times during the 2 stroke era where there was maybe a dozen bikes on the grid - only 2 or 3 capable of winning, as is historically typical for the class. Kind of pathetic. Dorna's failed CRT experiment didn't fool anybody, but at least they are trying something. They have to solve this problem because if there is another global economic downturn that results in 4 bikes lining up for the start, Many fans will lose interest. I would.

You keep forgetting that this class is first and foremost an engineering competition. If you do spec this and spec that, its no longer Moto GP. I dont know what GP pays for a constructors championship, but its 4 wheeled cousin F1 pays out around 100 million to the winning constructor, not the winning driver. The engineers are rock stars as well as the drivers.

kilowatt · Aug 1, 2014

povol said:
You keep forgetting that this class is first and foremost an engineering competition. If you do spec this and spec that, its no longer Moto GP. I dont know what GP pays for a constructors championship, but its 4 wheeled cousin F1 pays out around 100 million to the winning constructor, not the winning driver. The engineers are rock stars as well as the drivers.

I'm not forgetting it, I just don't buy it. Consumers like you and me make the whole thing go round. We buy the race tickets, the motorcycles, the crap the advertisers sell (that includes the constructors). It's all about US, not the constructors. I'm an engineer too so I've got nothing against them, but they are small cogs in the machine now.

povol · Aug 1, 2014

kilowatt said:
I'm not forgetting it, I just don't buy it. Consumers like you and me make the whole thing go round. We buy the race tickets, the motorcycles, the crap the advertisers sell (that includes the constructors). It's all about US, not the constructors. I'm an engineer too so I've got nothing against them, but they are small cogs in the machine now.

What do you mean you just dont buy it. Is that another way of saying im new to the sport and dont understand it.

kilowatt · Aug 1, 2014

povol said:
What do you mean you just dont buy it. Is that another way of saying im new to the sport and dont understand it.

Assuming those are actually questions, what I mean is that it's another way of saying that your understanding of the sport is stuck in 1982.

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