THE CASE FOR MARQUEZ

J4rn0 said:

Trying to affect the pace of another rider is not "racing for position". These are two diffferent things.

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What do you base this accusation on? How do you 'know' Marc was not racing for position? Race Direction's report? Because Race Direction disbelieved Marc while they believed Rossi YET Rossi deliberately ran Marc off the stable racing surface. That is, you believe the perpetrator is being honest while the victim is being dishonest! Quite curious. Though that assessment was based entirely on faith. You have based your entire premise on the foundation that Marc was guilty of toying with Rossi. And you cite Race Direction for that support. How can that standard be so shallow for you then to run with it as a statement of fact?

Also, since you have been and an active member of this forum, please provide us with some quotes of yours that accuses Marquez of deliberately toying with Rossi past say two weeks ago. Since you seem to have always had access to Valentino's thoughts, then surely you heard him think about this at PI before it became public. Or did you base your suspicious on just observing Marc? Because that would also be some very interesting mind reading as well. You are convinced the "truth" is that Marc lied about his intentions, and use the same faith to conclude Rossi was telling the "truth", that is the same faith from Mike Webb. Coincidence?

Give us substantial evidence then to support you claim that Marc is guilty of toying with Rossi. I'd love to read it. And better yet, love to debunk it.

michaelm said:

Just for the sake of argument, why can't MM race as he did for whatever reason, given that the stewards have said he was racing legally for position?

Perhaps he was playing mind games to advance his cause against Rossi next year, he thinks Rossi's ego is too big and needs trimming, he laid a personal curse on Rossi privately post-Assen (where MM had no grounds for complaint imo btw) that Valentino would never win another title, or even just likes close faring bashing racing for its own sake. All of these motives have been approved, and indeed lauded, on more than a few occasions when Valentino has raced exactly as MM did in this race.

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No can. let's see how it works out for him.

but then again i can't remember Vale sandbagging to jack around for 3rd place.

You're not going to get any evidence Jum.

No one has any.

All they have is the statement from Mike Webb, which also contains zero evidence.

The "evidence" the fans are relying on happens to be a statement, which also contains no evidence. lol

J4rn0 said:

Either you guys are deaf or pretend to be. Your freedom of course, being deaf is not a crime. We all know MM's behavior was "guilty but not punishable" as Mike Webb put it, but the fact remains that it wasn't innocent behavior. Not by a mile. So you can't go on just answering "he didnt break any rules". We all know that. Thank you.
.

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You don't KNOW anything. Its a modern day witch hunt! You have no evidence except your religious like faith in Rossi's accusations. Mike Webb possibly suffers from the same ailment with the added pressure that going against Dorna, even his own status, was on the balance. Such is the monster they created when they doctored the sport. This is absolute religious extremism. You have NO MORE knowledge nor evidence nor proof Marquez is a witch as did those accusers had that burned 19 girls in the Salem witch hunts. Produce something substantive, all you've offered so far is Mike Webb going on a hunch, his personal belief, that is his faith, that Marquez is lying.

Jumkie said:

You have made multiple accusations that you know the intentions of Marquez. Please provide some evidence. Its the basis for your entire argument, so lets examine this foundation. Please detail what has led you to believe this notion that Marquez was out to "disturb" Rossi. Also, please point out any posts you have made before last Thursday (one with a time stamp not edited before that time) where you describe your suspicion of Marquez's dirty intentions.

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The rhetorical operation you're asking Rossi defenders to undertake is comparable to, let's say, a thief you've just catched in your own living room with your tv in his arms who asks you to not accuse him of any crime unless you give undeniable proofs that he's not a tv technician who bumped into your house by mistake. True, you can't proove the reason his face is covered in black is that he doesn't want you to recognize him... we have to consider that maybe he was just feeling cold. True, he's holding a tv, but we have to consider the empirical possibility that he could've been about to put it right back where it was before...

... If we're willing to be captious defenders of absurdities and misreaders of the obviousness of an event. Who was the rider Marc fought the most time with? Rossi. Who was the rider Marc fought less time with? I think it's Lorenzo. I could already stop there. Who was the rider Marc fought unquestionably harder? Rossi. Who was the only rider Marc managed to make contact with several times? Rossi. During the harsh several-laps-lasting duel, was Marc for more than few seconds keeping a decent distance, either by staying clearly in front or clearly behind? No, not even by chance.

And finally, before the now famous and infamous "kick", did Marc make an "headbutting" move towards Vale's bike? Yes he did.

Does this all make Valentino's aim to drive him off track more correct? Hell no. More understandable? Hell yeah.

JPSLotus said:

You're not going to get any evidence Jum.

No one has any.

All they have is the statement from Mike Webb, which also contains zero evidence.

The "evidence" the fans are relying on happens to be a statement, which also contains no evidence. lol

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JPS? do you marc had the pace to pull away?
simple yes or no question.

steeeeeve said:

When Rossi made those statements right after PI I thought is was strange. Then I realized he knew what he was talking about after I saw what went down in Sepang.

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When Rossi makes those comments after PI, the world thought they were pretty strange. In Spanish media, which is the most Moto savy globaly and also has a deep Rossi following, there was a lot of confusion as to what Rossi was on about. If Marquez was helping Lorenzo a quick possition swap would have netted Lorenzo 5 more points. Rossi's accusations were baseless and unwarranted. And most importantly not understood

Now, if I'm going to be accused of something I didn't do, in the next confrontation the accuser is going to get the horns. Simple as that really. If I'm accused of deliberatly slowin a rider or helping another, well all right, if that is what you want that's what you'll get... Sporting, NO, but Marquez never broke any rules. These are 2 Mediterranean men that need to ooze machismo. Rossi forgot that rule bit.... And the fact that the world was watching.

JPSLotus said:

You're not going to get any evidence Jum.

No one has any.

All they have is the statement from Mike Webb, which also contains zero evidence.

The "evidence" the fans are relying on happens to be a statement, which also contains no evidence. lol

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That is what is so mind-boggling.

"Marc is guilty and is lying"-I base my entire argument of this premise!

'Ah, ok, what evidence do you have that Marc is quilty of something? Either it by of toys with Rossi, causing the crash, provoking and ruffling Rossi's feathers, etc.???'

"Mike Webb said so."

OK, lets examine what Mike Webb said. 'I just have faith Marc is lying and Rossi is telling the sublime truth'. Yes but please give us some evidence sir. 'Oh, I have none, its just a statement of faith.'


Rossi fans: "You see, Marc was guilty of lying. He provoked this mess, Rossi is INNOCENT!" The world is against Rossi!

baturro said:

When Rossi makes those comments after PI, the world thought they were pretty strange. In Spanish media, which is the most Moto savy globaly and also has a deep Rossi following, there was a lot of confusion as to what Rossi was on about. If Marquez was helping Lorenzo a quick possition swap would have netted Lorenzo 5 more points. Rossi's accusations were baseless and unwarranted. And most importantly not understood

Now, if I'm going to be accused of something I didn't do, in the next confrontation the accuser is going to get the horns. Simple as that really. If I'm accused of deliberatly slowin a rider or helping another, well all right, if that is what you want that's what you'll get... Sporting, NO, but Marquez never broke any rules. These are 2 Mediterranean men that need to ooze machismo. Rossi forgot that rule bit.... And the fact that the world was watching.

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I think these guys can tell if someone is sandbagging or riding abnormally. Much better that we could ever imagine. Ianonne could also tell.

AlienDNA said:

I don’t understand why no one has analysed the footage correctly.

At the corner in question, Marc runs wide on purpose to let Rossi through. Rossi sees this, not for the first time and it is the last straw, so decides to make a point by slowing down and running Marc out wide. Marc reacts and lifts the Honda slowing it down. Rossi looks over at Marc to make his point, and this should have been the end of it, but this incites Marc and he decides to go around the outside. He gets on the gas and leans in which causes his line to tighten (Check the Honda data log and see if I’m wrong!) and hits Rossi’s knee with his helmet. A split second later, Rossi having felt the touch flicks his knee/leg out, a perfectly natural reaction, and Marc goes down.

Marc made first contact and that along with the OBVIOUS intentional harassment earlier on with extreme overtaking manoeuvres and slowing down means he should be the one who gets penalised!

NB: I had always been a Marquez fan and had great respect for his skill – but alas no more. His spirit stands shamed.

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Do you have any interview quotes, or anything on record to support your claim Marquez ran wide "on purpose"? Because Rossi just debunked your assertion already, given that he is on RECORD saying he deliberately ran Marc wide! So let me get this straight, Marc read Rossi's mind and they both went out wide together? Because again, Rossi already admitted he ran Marc wide! So what credibility does the rest of your post have if you already stated it with a glaring mistake for which you base the rest of it? You see, you built your case on sand stating it was concrete.

What relevance is their in trying to blame Marc after he was cornered by the perpetrator? GIVEN the perpetrator already admitted to running Marc wide? Let me explain something to you, once the perpetrator has admitted, any evasive action the victim attempts is in reaction to that, the blame has already been assigned by their own admission.

So then, you are trying to say Marc was guilty AFTER he was put in a predicament by the GUILTY Perpetrator? Uhm, sorry, logic doesn't work that way.

Jumkie said:

Boppers: "You see, Marc was guilty of lying. He provoked this mess, Rossi is INNOCENT!" The world is against Rossi!

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FTFY

steeeeeve said:

JPS? do you marc had the pace to pull away?
simple yes or no question.

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I'm not going to give you a simple answer, because it doesn't boil down to a 'yes' or 'no' answer.

The answer is no. The reason is because had he had the pace, he would have not started losing time to Dani Pedrosa right out of the gate. Dani was the fastest guy the whole weekend. It showed in qualifying, and it showed where it really mattered; the race. MM may have qualified second, but we have seen Marc stick it high up on the grid this year in qualifying, only to see him have a lesser race pace.

You could see the RCV didn't have the top speed advantage on the straights. When Marc couldn't open up a gap there, it was obvious they were going to be in for a fight since it was a push everywhere else between the two riders.

JPSLotus said:

I'm not going to give you a simple answer, because it doesn't boil down to a 'yes' or 'no' answer.

The answer is no. The reason is because had he had the pace, he would have not started losing time to Dani Pedrosa right out of the gate. Dani was the fastest guy the whole weekend. It showed in qualifying, and it showed where it really mattered; the race. MM may have qualified second, but we have seen Marc stick it high up on the grid this year in qualifying, only to see him have a lesser race pace.

You could see the RCV didn't have the top speed advantage on the straights. When Marc couldn't open up a gap there, it was obvious they were going to be in for a fight since it was a push everywhere else between the two riders.

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okay we simply disagree. I think he had the pace. Rossi thinks he had the pace. Ianonne thought he had the pace in PI. You don't. Perhaps we can agree to disagree.

steeeeeve said:

okay we simply disagree. I think he had the pace. Rossi thinks he had the pace. Ianonne thought he had the pace in PI. You don't. Perhaps we can agree to disagree.

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Back to Jums' original point, none of this matters whether you think he had the pace, or I think he did not.

There is zero evidence that supports either claim.

So thinking he rode at a pace less than was possible, is a thought that has no supporting evidence whatsoever.

steeeeeve said:

No can. let's see how it works out for him.

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Absolutely he should have looked to how it would turn out for him if he did do what you accuse him of. Rossi fans are obviously perfectly entitled to consider him to be a prick, and will doubtless now hate him for the rest of his career, which may not exactly smooth his path. However Stoner for one raced Rossi entirely cleanly and incurred the undying hatred of Rossi fans of your ilk anyway.

My assessment of MM is that he may well have considered all this and just doesn't care.

What is fairly incontrovertible is that if Valentino had the capability he had the options of not letting Lorenzo past and of passing MM and pulling away. I don't see how him losing the championship due to not being able to do this differs from Jorge losing because he couldn't match Valentino in the wet or that not being fast enough to achieve this legally means he is allowed to run a competitor off the track.

JPSLotus said:

Back to Jums' original point, none of this matters whether you think he had the pace, or I think he did not.

There is zero evidence that supports either claim.

So thinking he rode at a pace less than was possible, is a thought that has no supporting evidence whatsoever.

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the problem is for you guys is that this isn't a court of law. MM HAS ...... HIMSELF. AND THAT"S OKAY.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, but I find it curious that the RCV could walk away from the M1 in Phillip Island, but not in Sepang.

steeeeeve said:

the problem is for you guys is that this isn't a court of law. MM HAS ...... HIMSELF. AND THAT"S OKAY.

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No, Rossi and people who support his disgusting baseless accusations have ...... Marquez. Let's place the blame where it stems from. All Marc did is do what supposedly Rossi and his fans have admired. Race hard, and in this case clean! Yes, it's not a court of law, This is at very least a space to expose the human condition that has ...... Marc, a young kid who was living out his career but got entangled in the Tyranny of Rossi and his cult worshippers in tow over EXACTLY NO EVIDENCE. None. You haven't produced any, in fact you said, you might be wrong. Well if you are, multiple that times hundreds of thousands which have now put Marc career and life in a awful predicament.

Can you for a moment Steve imagine the implication that you are wrong about Marc? Hell it shouldn't be that hard to do since you wouldn't have to shelve anything, nothing substantial, in fact a mere hunch. Now then imagine what this has done to Marc, the very real human being. You may be hindered because of your faith that he is guilty, and deserves it, now if he is not guilty, does he deserve the mess of his reputation that this has caused?

Remember walking in a GP paddock, its 80% Rossi fans. Marc's work space has now become a hostile environment. And for what? A ....... hunch by a paranoid tyrant who planted a seed to fester in his fanbase.

Iowegian said:

I don't think it's a conspiracy, but I find it curious that the RCV could walk away from the M1 in Phillip Island, but not in Sepang.

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Temperature, impact on tires, weight of Dani Pedrosa.

steeeeeve said:

the problem is for you guys is that this isn't a court of law. MM HAS ...... HIMSELF. AND THAT"S OKAY.

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So you still have no proof. Good to know.