Team KR

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jun 4 2009, 07:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whilst I never felt that KRSR's teams achieved that much in MotoGP...

I suppose it depends what you mean by "achieved" and under what capacity of team management... You got me thinking...

If you are talking about KRSR's management of teams: then being the principle "team manager" he guided such riders as Eddie Lawson, Wayne Rainey, John Kocinski, Luca Cadalora and others to race wins and multiple championships in two classes; I'd say that's rather a considerable "achievement".

I you are talking about KRSR's team's achievement in innovation, his team managed in creating unique engineering marvels, from 3 to 5 cylinder machines, in both 2 & 4 stroke, and in-house produced chassis and exhaust systems, in what is suppose to be a "prototype series" with the engineering of the Proton KR3, Proton V5, and the KR211V/212, and spanned three different major displacements of 500, 990, and 800ccs. So in innovation; I'd say that's rather a considerable "achievement".

Still not impressed, consider the "achievement" in longevity; one doesn't have to look far, how about Ilmor's project of the X3 which did not survive for more than a few photo opps; contrast that with KRSR's machines who's project started in 1997 and lasted until 2007, that's ten seasons! In that time two full factory efforts, Arpillia & Kawasaki, and several small teams like Paton, TSR, Muz Weber, Harris WCM, and Blata, have come and gone in that same time. I'd say in the area of longevity, that's a rather considerable "acheivement". Ah, but I think you're still not impressed Garry. You're probably saying, well you were thinking more like "results". Ok.

If you are talking about KRSR's team's achievements in "results" well then lets analyze this a little deeper than your standard shallow onlooker who may look at the podium and not see a KR team rider and conclude; they are ..... Let's establish a standard; perhaps a good standard of results is indicated by 'points' earned in the classification, afterall that is how championships are won. Well lets compare a relative rookie entry like say full factory Kawasaki in 2002 & 03, they scored 4 and 19 points respectively. Compare that to the first two years of TEAM KR, first year they scored 68 points and the following year 105 (combined). Not bad for a rookie season right considering that in the second year for Kawasaki, KR out scored them in constructors points 38 to 19 (double). In 10 seasons, KR scored over 105 points three separate times, and over 60 points three other seasons. Since 1997-2006, any and all KRSR "teams" have never finished last in "team" standing (there was alway a team entry under KR albeit sometimes a very small one). In that time they have scored double digit points every year, and most every year scored a combined greater number of points than full factory Aprillia and Kawasaki. In the first three years of the KR3, they on average outscored Aprillia, that is until their best rider (Junior) left in 99 to come runner up and 2000 to win the title. This left KR Proton without a consistent good rider, yet they still managed to score 20 points (and that is still more than Kawasaki's first two years). There worst scoring year was in 2004, but who can blame them less you forget the V4 engine provided by KTM was terrible, so bad that in 05, KTM thereby was found in breach (you see, sometimes you have too look a little deeper than the podium to find a meaningful analysis of results.) In 01 Aprillia exited MotoGP but Kawasaki entered, and KR Proton out scored them the next two years. Only in 04 did Kawasaki outscore a KR team, that is until KR211 in 2006 when TEAM KR scored a 6th place overall classification, with a single bike, over full factory Kawasaki and satellite Ducati.

1997
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1998
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1999
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2000
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2001
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2002
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2003
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2004
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2005
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2006
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2007
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I suppose it depends what you mean by "achieved"... eh.

Lets hope we see another KR Team entry in the near future, perhaps under the new MOTO2.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jun 5 2009, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>discussion.

Awesome post as usual Garry. Hope you don't mind that I used your statement to start the discussion; I know you originally qualified it with a great understanding of what KR was up against in your original post. Actually, your premise is what got the wheels turning in my head and so I just ran with it. I knew in my mind that KR had accomplished/achieved something significant but you challenged me to revisit, so thanks buddy.

I really like the way you describe the KR experience, "always fighting above their weight". That's really an insightful way of putting it (I wish I would have thought of that). I couldn't agree with you more, but the beauty is that they always held their own, and those of us who admire the underdog were amazed that they kept getting back up after being knocked down and pushed around (i.e. the KTM debacle).

Its true that we focus on the "failures and underachievement" of some efforts/riders and erroneously chalk it up to poor performance when in reality there can be circumstances outside the spectators eye. One thing that I noticed while reacquainting myself with the KR experience was that when they fielded two machines the results by their riders was usually fairly similar. I forgot to mention that, but I think this fact is another indicator that KR tried as much as possible to give either rider a fighting chance, both being #1 in the classical factory sense. Their teams had a greater element of “teamwork” than today’s idea of a “team” in the paddock.

You said Roberts should not have gone broke chasing the dream, ah, but aren't you glad he did? He didn't just go broke my friend; the man went into debt the last couple years fielding that lofty experiment. Sadly, it was a mental mistake that cost KR a win in Estoril 06, otherwise they would have had a race win against the heavy weights of the sport. Insult to injury, but isn't that how life is? Perhaps this is what made KR and all its forms, ebbs and flows throughout the life admired for the grand effort despite the odds. I once heard a commentator many years ago say after a rider suffered a crash while leading the final lap, and as the race winner crossed the line, he said; "Folks, that's motorsports, agony and euphoria, both can leave you in tears; regardless, you can bet they'll do it again tomorrow!" ....... eh!

Even if KR doesn’t get back in the game with Moto2, those of us old bean that got to see the grand effort, will admire it for what it was—an act of passion to the point of ruin. (Ah, isn’t that the script of a love story…?)







(BTW, I must say, it seems the forum has been restored, I hope this isn't the kiss of death in saying as much).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Jun 5 2009, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Achievement infers that there was a successful end. What end did Kjr's team in MotoGP achieve other than to end?

I think I answered your question in my post. Perhaps not satisfactory?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Yes they fought and did what they did but they were just mired in process and it is hard to see how they could have enjoyed it. Like I said before the Kjr team belongs in Moto2 and they will be on equal footing to everyone else. In MotoGP they were drowning and there was no way they could compete with the factory teams. Moto2 seems like a winner from the get go.

GS, that will be the very first question I'll ask when given the opportunity. But I'm certain their answer will be "YES". For sure there is countless frustration and as you said, they were "mired in process", but I contend that there is joy in process. Have you ever created something or perhaps wrenched on something and regardless if it was show quality, it was pretty good to be proud of your accomplishment? I have. I once painted a bike that took me almost a year. There were several set backs and sleepless nights. In the end I entered it into a bike show, it came in third place. The two bikes that beat mine had been done in a professional shop and the owners had spent thousands with a crew of dedicated workers. I, on the other hand, had two friends help me. We had fun doing it, and we still talk about all the crap that happened to us in the process. There were sometimes we had to start some parts completely over from scratch, very frustrating. (Yeah, yeah, You don't have to tell me how this doesn't compare to the KR experience, I get it). But I do think some of the same emotions are experienced. There is beauty in the ebbs and flows of struggle and moderate success. One has a sense of true accomplishment and personal pride. So yes GS, I do think they clutched their heads in frustration and anger and disappointment, but along the way there was pride, a sense of accomplishment, and joy in modest success. Lets not forget that they had several podiums along the way and McWilliams set stuning pole on a KR Proton. Sure that's not setting the world ablaze, but that's the euphoric moments that kept the team soldiering forward in search of that next fix of success.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 5 2009, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Remember when a member.....Jeremy McWilliams is ...."..

This bike was a True prototype and in the true spirit of the championship they were true champions.

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Yeah, I remember that. Its always amusing to see a person make such a bold statement only to be shown a mirror where they proceed in seeing their reflection with foot-in-mouth.

McWilliams was certainly not ..... It may interest you to know that he remains the only British rider to score a win or pole in the modern era in the premier class. Do you still remember how stunned all the experts and casual spectators were when he scored that pole position on a very unlikely KR3 Proton machine in 2002? Him and Aoki scored 59/63 points respectively that year and beat a representative from each of the major manufactures competing in the series in the final overall classification. Yeah, that's right, they beat representative who ran both the conventional and evolution machine of the time by Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Aprillia, and Kawasaki.

Think about this for a moment. Think back to that season 2002, Rossi won just about every race in sight on a Honda. The other race winners that year where Ukawa and Barros, both on a Honda, and then Biaggi who scored two wins on an M1. No other brand scored a win (and really, how could they against the peak of Rossi's dominance on the all conquering RC211V, untouchable.) The only other full factory to score more points in the overall classification against the true prototype KR3; was Suzuki with their rider Kenny Roberts JR! The other GSVR ridden by Sete Gibers (who wasn't a slouch in his own right) ended below both KR3 riders in the final classification. So other than Honda and Yamaha, who where wining everything, only one other factory beat KR3 in points. Speaking of "prototypes", consider that Honda ran both the RC211V & the NSR500 while Yamaha ran both the YZR-M1 & the YZR500 that year; the Aprillia ran the RS3 CUBE, and Kawasaki the first entry of the ZX-RR. So even among a season that saw a greater competition of "prototype" engineering, the KR3, being the most unique in my opinion, still held its own.

McWilliams is a special class of rider who will go down as never achieving their true potential. The other rider that comes to mind is Garry McCoy. It’s really a shame that they succumbed to unlucky injury in their careers. Its no coincidence that Roberts Senior, having an uncanny eye for talent on a shoe string budget employed McWilliams. And its no coincidence, that when Ilmor asked Mr. Roberts who they might employ as a test rider for a unique machine as was the X3, the names that came to mind were both Garry McCoy and Jeremy McWilliams; both of which were employed by Ilmor during their very short run. Even in their dote age, they where called upon to make sense of another highly engineered machine. That speaks to their talent and character, and of course to the insiders that can identify this quality.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 5 2009, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>... the results on paper dont always tell the whole story.

....... eh brotha. And that's why I like to exchange with the adults around here. You nailed it wit this statement.

Here's another one for ya. Both aboard the Ilmore X3.

McWilliams
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McCoy
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Its between races guys, humor me. Feel free to chime in.