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Stoner: Without electronics, Rossi would still be number 1

It would be interesting to hear why he thinks this, as we have seen a rider like Marquez dominate lowers classes with no electronics. all I know is the more spec things get with electronics, the more Marquez seems to widen the gulf between himself and the other riders. A lot of people were bleating about how Marquez and Honda would struggle without their proprietary electronics and he is running off and leaving the pack at will without it. Now you have people bleating that the spec IMU will bring Honda down because they are assuming it is them and only them that have figured it out. I would be willing to bet that Marquez takes another step in his domination with the spec IMU as it will further highlite his skill level over the other riders. I think Stoners argument holds water against the likes of Pedrosa, Dovi, Lorenzo, but I would pick Marc straight up in a head to head bike race against Rossi no matter what you put them on.
 
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povol said:
It would be interesting to hear why he thinks this, as we have seen a rider like Marquez dominate lowers classes with no electronics. all I know is the more spec things get with electronics, the more Marquez seems to widen the gulf between himself and the other riders. A lot of people were bleating about how Marquez and Honda would struggle without their proprietary electronics and he is running off and leaving the pack at will without it. Now you have people bleating that the spec IMU will bring Honda down because they are assuming it is them and only them that have figured it out. I would be willing to bet that Marquez takes another step in his domination with the spec IMU as it will further highlite his skill level over the other riders. I think Stoners argument holds water against the likes of Pedrosa, Dovi, Lorenzo, but I would pick Marc straight up in a head to head bike race against Rossi no matter what you put them on.
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10 years ago Rossi was a beast and would've have beaten Marquez. Now it's a different story.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
 
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povol said:
It would be interesting to hear why he thinks this, as we have seen a rider like Marquez dominate lowers classes with no electronics. all I know is the more spec things get with electronics, the more Marquez seems to widen the gulf between himself and the other riders. A lot of people were bleating about how Marquez and Honda would struggle without their proprietary electronics and he is running off and leaving the pack at will without it. Now you have people bleating that the spec IMU will bring Honda down because they are assuming it is them and only them that have figured it out. I would be willing to bet that Marquez takes another step in his domination with the spec IMU as it will further highlite his skill level over the other riders. I think Stoners argument holds water against the likes of Pedrosa, Dovi, Lorenzo, but I would pick Marc straight up in a head to head bike race against Rossi no matter what you put them on.
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Maybe his crash rate would increase without electronics.
 
RCV600RR said:
Maybe his crash rate would increase without electronics.
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Riders with dirt experience excelled on the 500’s . I see no reason whatsoever that with Marc’s world class dirt riding skills, he would master the throttle control needed to excel on one. Marc’s crash rate is admittedly self induced to find limits and are virtually always slower front end wash outs which is why he never gets hurt. His throttle control keeps him from losing the rear.
 
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povol said:
Riders with dirt experience excelled on the 500’s . I see no reason whatsoever that with Marc’s world class dirt riding skills, he would master the throttle control needed to excel on one. Marc’s crash rate is admittedly self induced to find limits and are virtually always slower front end wash outs which is why he never gets hurt. His throttle control keeps him from losing the rear.
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Maybe he'd crash, maybe he wouldn't crash much on the 500s - I agree that he'd still be really strong on the 500s. He's a spectacular talent.

With that being said, I think the fact that Marquez only crashes on the front is more a function of the new era of MotoGP bikes with the extremely sophisticated traction, ignition and fuelling control. Almost everyone crashes on the front now. Since 2007, the incidence of highsides have dropped to 10% of what we saw with the 500s. Many riders (including Stoner, KRJR, etc.) have commented that the bikes are really hard to crash on the throttle. I think it was JL in 2008 who said that the 800cc M1 was easier to ride than his RSA250...(though oddly enough he was the guy that highsided, hard, twice in 2008!).

I cast my mind back to, e.g., Jerez 2016 when the track was so slippery that the rear was spinning on the straight for all of the riders, or Argentina 2015 when the rear was sliding everywhere and JL struggled. Rossi won both races (I think from MM, interestingly enough (or at least it would've been MM at Argentina but for the collision).
 
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Stoner is doing drugs? Why would he say this unless he is afraid Marc-yee is going to steal what remains of his thunder?

Here is a quote from Rossi in 2006. I used it elsewhere as a sig in '06-'07
the systems that assist the motor help a lot. These are bikes that weigh 145 kilos [320 pounds] and have 250 horsepower: if there weren’t those rider [electronic] aids, we wouldn’t even be able to get out of the garage.
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I have zero doubt that Marc-yee is the fastest sucker out there with or without electronics, tires, or elbow sliders. I also have little doubt he would be the faster sucker out there against any aged Rossi.
 
povol said:
It would be interesting to hear why he thinks this, as we have seen a rider like Marquez dominate lowers classes with no electronics. all I know is the more spec things get with electronics, the more Marquez seems to widen the gulf between himself and the other riders. A lot of people were bleating about how Marquez and Honda would struggle without their proprietary electronics and he is running off and leaving the pack at will without it. Now you have people bleating that the spec IMU will bring Honda down because they are assuming it is them and only them that have figured it out. I would be willing to bet that Marquez takes another step in his domination with the spec IMU as it will further highlite his skill level over the other riders. I think Stoners argument holds water against the likes of Pedrosa, Dovi, Lorenzo, but I would pick Marc straight up in a head to head bike race against Rossi no matter what you put them on.
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I bow to few in terms of being a staunch Stoner fan, but he is not unknown for making self serving statements, and given he reputedly used the least electronics when he was racing this is imo shorthand for him being of the belief he himself would be better than MM without electronics. Even if it happens to be true, he hasn't raced for 6 years and left by his own choice which I respect, but doesn't put him in a strong position to make even veiled criticism of MM, again imo.

I tend to agree with you that MM would almost certainly adapt to whatever the formula happened to be, given how dominant he was in moto 2 for one as you say, where he scythed threw the entire field on occasion. Stoner is perhaps correct to the extent that elements of MM's current style are dependent on electronics, the miraculous saves and the strategy of crashing to find the limit would not be possible without them imo, but given he has current level electronics it is hardly unreasonable for MM to exploit them.

To be fair to Stoner he has been consistent about electronics ie being of the belief there should be less of them including when he was racing.
 
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Iamapony said:
Here is a quote from Rossi in 2006. I used it elsewhere as a sig in '06-'07
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That's because the bikes are actually designed with the electronics in mind. The extraordinarily peaky engine design (approach to the cams, bore, stroke, combustion chamber, etc.) is very extreme, but the roughness is 'tamed' by the electronics. If you removed the electronics, the engine and chassis design would need consequential changes.
 
michaelm said:
I bow to few in terms of being a staunch Stoner fan, but he is not unknown for making self serving statements, and given he reputedly used the least electronics when he was racing this is imo shorthand for him being of the belief he himself would be better than MM without electronics.
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Crediting Rossi, who he hates, in such an emphatic way isn't self-serving though. He could've made a self-serving point without involving Rossi.

He also has far more against Rossi than MM. He's never raced MM.
 
RCV600RR said:
That's because the bikes are actually designed with the electronics in mind. The extraordinarily peaky engine design (approach to the cams, bore, stroke, combustion chamber, etc.) is very extreme, but the roughness is 'tamed' by the electronics. If you removed the electronics, the engine and chassis design would need consequential changes.
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I am sure as an Australian that you are aware that Stoner became renowned for very limited use of the electronics on the Ducati and later the Honda. It helps to read Stoner's teammates comments about how he used electronics and his brakes. They saw the telemetry. I don't recall the same information coming from the Rossi camp at any time. That doesn't mean he didn't turn down the assists, too, but it wasn't obvious, if he did. He has also recently complained that it's the electronics that is the problem with the Yamaha.

I suspect that particular Yamaha issue would not be quite as big of a problem for MM, just because he can ride hard rubber better than most. And the tire wear wouldn't bother him like Rossi and Vinales. He crashes pushing the harder compound but he doesn't fall on his face at the starts, despite racing against soft donuts. Dovi and Rossi are both good at going the other way and maintaining softer tires.

I guess a point that I am trying to make is that the electronics still follow the bike design, not the other way around. You can ride a good bike fast with minimum electronic assist, but you can't ride a terrible bike fast, just because you have electronics.
 
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RCV600RR said:
On a slightly unrelated note, that helmet is awesome. I'm going to buy one.
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I've done an internship at Nolan in 2012 as they have their headquarters and manufacturing really close to where I live. I can tell you each helmet they produce is basically hand-built and the quality is astonishing. Amazing stuff really!
 
RCV600RR said:
Crediting Rossi, who he hates, in such an emphatic way isn't self-serving though. He could've made a self-serving point without involving Rossi.

He also has far more against Rossi than MM. He's never raced MM.
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Sure, but he had at worst an even head to head record against Rossi (2 titles each, many more wins for Stoner) despite being on a Ducati and an LCR Honda for 5 out of the 7 years of his premier class carreer, all the while reputedly using less electronics than Rossi, so if Rossi would be the best without electronics the implication as far as he himself is concerned is fairly obvious I would have thought.
 
Electronics are necessary when you're putting that much power down, you get rid of rider aids you have to make the bikes less powerful like they did in BSB.
 
But do they need all these electronic aids, maybe take some of them off?

I remembered this interview with Wayne Rainey and his view on this:
 
When the spec ECU was introduced Nakamoto said it was like going back to 2006 in terms of their sophistication. I highly doubt the electronics have made that strong of a jump from that "period" to what we have in 2018 as the whole goal was to prevent proprietary ECU software from being deployed. The electronics are dumbed down significantly as seen by the close racing we've had this season.

Not sure what Stoner is smoking but at age 39 Rossi would not be #1 on a bike with no electronics. Marquez would still be king of the castle. I do remember Stoner saying if there were no electronics he would be willing to ride again, but given the nature of a GP bike in 2018, you have to have electronics, or the power output levels would need to be reduced by 20% or somewhere in that ballpark to make the bikes rideable. You'd have a huge increase in high side crashes when throttles are opened too much on corner exit when still leaned over. For a guy who made such a fuss about safety, something that isn't incorrect by any means, going to no electronics would compromise rider safety significantly. He needs to go back to fishing.
 

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