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I don't know, I think there are more than two riders currently in AMA that could be at the pointy end. I'm thinking the eldest Hayden, and Zemke are another pair that would do well.
I'm afraid though we will never see this materialize because of the global economy, I don't think sponsers are going to be too keen on spending thier money on AMA yanks to come into the series.
I'm afraid though we will never see this materialize because of the global economy, I don't think sponsers are going to be too keen on spending thier money on AMA yanks to come into the series.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L8Braker @ Apr 3 2009, 07:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm afraid though we will never see this materialize because of the global economy, I don't think sponsers are going to be too keen on spending thier money on AMA yanks to come into the series.
sad but true methinks...
sad but true methinks...
Austin
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No doubt in my mind Mladin would be a title contender in WSBK and I think Hacking could nab a win as well. I'm not sure that there is anyone else in the states that could win in WSBK at the moment. I still think Zemke is the most underrated rider in the states but I think his prime was about two or three years ago. Tommy Hayden is impressing me more and more this season but I'm not sure he could get a win over there, maybe a podium but I doubt a win. I don't think anyone else could make a dent in the series. Not even my beloved BB.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 3 2009, 04:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>sad but true methinks...
Yea its always going to be tough for American riders to get rides in Europe when equally good european riders who already know at least some of the tracks will do the same job for less money. It's a shame that Boulder motorsports team didn't materialize into a team willing to promote more american riders
Yea its always going to be tough for American riders to get rides in Europe when equally good european riders who already know at least some of the tracks will do the same job for less money. It's a shame that Boulder motorsports team didn't materialize into a team willing to promote more american riders
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 3 2009, 12:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes i still think AMA sat marginally above the AMA (before all the rule changes). AMA has 2 riders who ride at an impressive level, only one of which was prepared to challenge himself against the worlds best at his dicipline.
?
Anyway, like I've said, you never let facts get in your way. Fact of the matter is the AMA could have easily sent two former champs and look to win the WSBK title straight away. The BSB champs...not so much (Kiyo/Byrne). BSB has recently sent a few good riders, and I have been very impressed with them, but I'd say they are not better than T. Hayden (who has actually diced at times with Mladin/Spies, so if they were all there, we could easily see a 123 of AMA riders in WSBK) and ad to the list of podium contenders we could put: Hacking, Zemke, Yates, and Hayes. I'd even say the new young blood in WSBK from BSB are more like our young guns: Blake Young, Josh Herrin, and DiSalvo. Again, the former WSBK/BSB (Neil Hodgson) champ has had to take a back seat to some of these names above in races.
But you still think BSB were/is rated above AMA... and your reason is why?
?
Anyway, like I've said, you never let facts get in your way. Fact of the matter is the AMA could have easily sent two former champs and look to win the WSBK title straight away. The BSB champs...not so much (Kiyo/Byrne). BSB has recently sent a few good riders, and I have been very impressed with them, but I'd say they are not better than T. Hayden (who has actually diced at times with Mladin/Spies, so if they were all there, we could easily see a 123 of AMA riders in WSBK) and ad to the list of podium contenders we could put: Hacking, Zemke, Yates, and Hayes. I'd even say the new young blood in WSBK from BSB are more like our young guns: Blake Young, Josh Herrin, and DiSalvo. Again, the former WSBK/BSB (Neil Hodgson) champ has had to take a back seat to some of these names above in races.
But you still think BSB were/is rated above AMA... and your reason is why?
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 4 2009, 05:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>?
Anyway, like I've said, you never let facts get in your way. Fact of the matter is the AMA could have easily sent two former champs and look to win the WSBK title straight away. The BSB champs...not so much (Kiyo/Byrne). BSB has recently sent a few good riders, and I have been very impressed with them, but I'd say they are not better than T. Hayden (who has actually diced at times with Mladin/Spies, so if they were all there, we could easily see a 123 of AMA riders in WSBK) and ad to the list of podium contenders we could put: Hacking, Zemke, Yates, and Hayes. I'd even say the new young blood in WSBK from BSB are more like our young guns: Blake Young, Josh Herrin, and DiSalvo. Again, the former WSBK/BSB (Neil Hodgson) champ has had to take a back seat to some of these names above in races.
But you still think BSB were/is rated above AMA... and your reason is why?
I would say that if you looked back over the last decade, BSB has consistently produced better racing than AMA, it also launched the WSB career of Bayliss and Hodgson - and obviously the fact that GSE are such a sorted team had a great deal to do with that. Currently, I think the standard at the front of the field is superior in AMA, but it is a series which notoriously lacks depth in field, something that Hodgson found alarming upon his arrival four seasons back. He commented on the fact that some of the backmarkers he encountered wouldn't be out of place in group two on a midweek trackday at Pembrey. He also added that many of the circuits in America were extremely difficult to learn, and very technically challenging. On that subject however I would contentiously add that you could take any rider currently from the AMA, sling him on the best bike in BSB and he wouldn't win the championship for exactly the same reason - the circuits which over here are a major headfuck. That's why I was in awe of riders like Steve Baker, KR, Randy, Schwantz etc etc - their ability to come over here in the Trans Atlantic challenges and kick .... Take Mallory for example, which Bob Macyntyre refused to race at because he claimed it was so deceptively easy it was a death trap. These days I simply couldn't see a rider like Aaron Yates for example coming over here and running at the front at Knockhill in the pissing rain, or Tommy Hayden doing the business at Croft or Snetterton in a galeforce wind, without even makng mention of Cadwell and Oulton. Other than Hodgson, our recent exports to the AMA, Mason, Davies, McWilliams, Ellison have hardly set the series alight, Chaz's Daytona win being disappointingly obtained by default. I would concede, that tracks like the wonderful Road America, Laguna, or the decidedly dodgy Fontana, would be just as daunting for differing reasons.
I do however agree with you Jum that the cream of current potential rider exports are of a far higher standard in the AMA series. That said, please keep one eye on our lad Crutchlow in supersport - he's a real fighter and has the conviction and will to win. Ditto Eugene Laverty. I was really pleased to see Josh Hayes race WSS last year, and rate him highly, as I do Zemke who I would love to see race in Europe. Although I agree that there are a host of riders that could come across from AMA and make a significant impact, (an I would love to see this happen), a 123 is unlikely given the innate disparities in machinery...they would have to be assured of the top rides. I remember reading that the Makitia Suzuki's ridden by Maladin and Spies were consistently of a higher spec/budget and level of factory support afforded to the Alstare machines. Added to that, why would the likes of Maladin decamp himself, Peter Doyle and select members of his crew into a European based series, when they can negotiate triple the race revenue and sponsorship in the States. He's got his import business on the side, and his airplanes to entertain him. AMA pays big bucks to the top riders, which maddeningly accounts for the inertia of so many of its top riders. So many are content where they are...it comes down to being happy and content with your lot, which I think in spite of these troubled times, a lot of Americans are in general over their Anglo-European counterparts. Ask any rider in BSB, and unless their names Michael Rutter or Scott Smart, they all want to branch out onto the World Stage. I don't think there's quite the same impetus Stateside, which is a shame given the talent that the AMA produces. That said, we'll never produce a rider sufficiently laid back to take a year long sabbatical in order to farm mango's in South America.
-so it's not always about the money. For a while it seemed that Spies main barrier to world domination was not his faultering negotiations with Crescent Suzuki, but his pathological fear of flying!!
Most importantly, AMA has the greatest pedigree......., you guys invented the superbike as we know it - (all hail Steve McClaughlin), and in Merkel on the RC30, gave us the first World Champion. Then there was Russell. Prior to that, Cooley, Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Shobert, Schwantz, GPZ's locking horns with CB9's - that's what it was all about.
The more the influx of talented American riders in WSB the better, (and that goes out to the antipodean fraternity as well who haven't exactly acquitted themselves badly on the world stage over the years).
In the light of their big 'up-yours' to DMG, American Honda should've despatched their race team straight over to Italy and competed in WSB for a year or two (but left Hodgson behind sunning himself at Laguna Beach in the process
)
Anyway, like I've said, you never let facts get in your way. Fact of the matter is the AMA could have easily sent two former champs and look to win the WSBK title straight away. The BSB champs...not so much (Kiyo/Byrne). BSB has recently sent a few good riders, and I have been very impressed with them, but I'd say they are not better than T. Hayden (who has actually diced at times with Mladin/Spies, so if they were all there, we could easily see a 123 of AMA riders in WSBK) and ad to the list of podium contenders we could put: Hacking, Zemke, Yates, and Hayes. I'd even say the new young blood in WSBK from BSB are more like our young guns: Blake Young, Josh Herrin, and DiSalvo. Again, the former WSBK/BSB (Neil Hodgson) champ has had to take a back seat to some of these names above in races.
But you still think BSB were/is rated above AMA... and your reason is why?
I would say that if you looked back over the last decade, BSB has consistently produced better racing than AMA, it also launched the WSB career of Bayliss and Hodgson - and obviously the fact that GSE are such a sorted team had a great deal to do with that. Currently, I think the standard at the front of the field is superior in AMA, but it is a series which notoriously lacks depth in field, something that Hodgson found alarming upon his arrival four seasons back. He commented on the fact that some of the backmarkers he encountered wouldn't be out of place in group two on a midweek trackday at Pembrey. He also added that many of the circuits in America were extremely difficult to learn, and very technically challenging. On that subject however I would contentiously add that you could take any rider currently from the AMA, sling him on the best bike in BSB and he wouldn't win the championship for exactly the same reason - the circuits which over here are a major headfuck. That's why I was in awe of riders like Steve Baker, KR, Randy, Schwantz etc etc - their ability to come over here in the Trans Atlantic challenges and kick .... Take Mallory for example, which Bob Macyntyre refused to race at because he claimed it was so deceptively easy it was a death trap. These days I simply couldn't see a rider like Aaron Yates for example coming over here and running at the front at Knockhill in the pissing rain, or Tommy Hayden doing the business at Croft or Snetterton in a galeforce wind, without even makng mention of Cadwell and Oulton. Other than Hodgson, our recent exports to the AMA, Mason, Davies, McWilliams, Ellison have hardly set the series alight, Chaz's Daytona win being disappointingly obtained by default. I would concede, that tracks like the wonderful Road America, Laguna, or the decidedly dodgy Fontana, would be just as daunting for differing reasons.
I do however agree with you Jum that the cream of current potential rider exports are of a far higher standard in the AMA series. That said, please keep one eye on our lad Crutchlow in supersport - he's a real fighter and has the conviction and will to win. Ditto Eugene Laverty. I was really pleased to see Josh Hayes race WSS last year, and rate him highly, as I do Zemke who I would love to see race in Europe. Although I agree that there are a host of riders that could come across from AMA and make a significant impact, (an I would love to see this happen), a 123 is unlikely given the innate disparities in machinery...they would have to be assured of the top rides. I remember reading that the Makitia Suzuki's ridden by Maladin and Spies were consistently of a higher spec/budget and level of factory support afforded to the Alstare machines. Added to that, why would the likes of Maladin decamp himself, Peter Doyle and select members of his crew into a European based series, when they can negotiate triple the race revenue and sponsorship in the States. He's got his import business on the side, and his airplanes to entertain him. AMA pays big bucks to the top riders, which maddeningly accounts for the inertia of so many of its top riders. So many are content where they are...it comes down to being happy and content with your lot, which I think in spite of these troubled times, a lot of Americans are in general over their Anglo-European counterparts. Ask any rider in BSB, and unless their names Michael Rutter or Scott Smart, they all want to branch out onto the World Stage. I don't think there's quite the same impetus Stateside, which is a shame given the talent that the AMA produces. That said, we'll never produce a rider sufficiently laid back to take a year long sabbatical in order to farm mango's in South America.
Most importantly, AMA has the greatest pedigree......., you guys invented the superbike as we know it - (all hail Steve McClaughlin), and in Merkel on the RC30, gave us the first World Champion. Then there was Russell. Prior to that, Cooley, Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Shobert, Schwantz, GPZ's locking horns with CB9's - that's what it was all about.
The more the influx of talented American riders in WSB the better, (and that goes out to the antipodean fraternity as well who haven't exactly acquitted themselves badly on the world stage over the years).
In the light of their big 'up-yours' to DMG, American Honda should've despatched their race team straight over to Italy and competed in WSB for a year or two (but left Hodgson behind sunning himself at Laguna Beach in the process
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 4 2009, 05:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Anyway, like I've said, you never let facts get in your way. Fact of the matter is the AMA could have easily sent two former champs and look to win the WSBK title straight away.
This is classic, you accuse me of not acknowledging facts only to waste no time in presenting one of your speculative opinions as a fact and expect people to buy it.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 4 2009, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would say
Excellent. Thanks for your well thought out response Arrab. As usually buddy.
Excellent. Thanks for your well thought out response Arrab. As usually buddy.
Jumkie for your benefit i will ellaborate (again) on why i think BSB is a higher level championship than AMA superbike. It's fairly simple. Firstly our series runs to regulations closer to the world championship, and attracts more factory teams and international riders. It also operates on more world class tracks and produces more exciting racing. Additionally to that, recently BSB has simply produced more riders that have gone on to ride at world championship level.
Austin
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I'd first like to say, top post Arrab. You really echoed the majority of my sentiments regarding the debate between AMA and BSB. For the past few years I've felt as though the top talent from the UK has remained in BSB, were victims of underfunded MotoGP projects or rotted away in lowly private Aprilia teams. This year has changed that and I couldn't be more excited to see what Johnny Rea, Leon Haslam, Shakey Byrne, Euegene Laverty and Cal Crutchlow can do.
Unfortunately, what Arrab said about the talent in the AMA was spot on. I think Mladin could likely beat anyone running BSB at the moment but past him, the series is largely unimpressive. I rate Jamie Hacking is a very talented rider, although he is in his mid-30s with little to no SBK pedigree to show for it. Tommy Hayden may have the talent to compete, but he seems to be too mercurial for it to show on any regular basis. If we were talking Zemke three or four seasons ago, I would be confident he could hold his own in any SBK series in the world. I think he's slowed down some in fatherhood. Bostrom the same scenario except eight years ago and it's not fatherhood that's slowed him down, it's too many ventures happening simultaneously. Disalvo is a flameout. I think Roger Hayden will be a career AMA guy. I don't think Blake Young has world championship potential. I don't think Aaron Yates had what it took in his prime, much less six years later. Josh Hayes is a veteran satellite guy in the AMA, I don't think he has it either.
Bit of a sad state of affairs at the moment. But there is young talent coming through, just not at this sort of a national level yet.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 5 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Firstly our series runs to regulations closer to the world championship, and attracts more factory teams and international riders.
Which is why I want the AMA to adopt WSBK spec rules. And so we can have wildcard rides again.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 5 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It also operates on more world class tracks and produces more exciting racing.
Aren't there some notoriously dodgy tracks on the BSB schedule? The AMA does race at a few ovals unfortunately, but we have tracks like Laguna Seca, Road America, Miller Motorsports Park and Barber. Road America would be the only one incapable of holding a world championship event because of safety, but it's a top circuit nonetheless.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 5 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Additionally to that, recently BSB has simply produced more riders that have gone on to ride at world championship level.
I thought I had you with this one, but it's a lot closer than I thought it would be.
Troy Bayliss, 2001 WSBK World Champion. Neil Hodgson, 2003 WSBK World Champion. James Toseland, 2004 and 2007 WSBK World Champion.
Kenny Roberts Jr., 2000 500cc World Champion. Colin Edwards, 2000 and 2002 WSBK World Champion. Nicky Hayden, 2006 MotoGP World Champion.
Although BSB may have produced more riders competing at a world championship level, AMA riders have collected the same amount of world championships since 2000. One could also make the argument that the 500cc and MotoGP crowns are worth more than the WSBK championships.
Unfortunately, what Arrab said about the talent in the AMA was spot on. I think Mladin could likely beat anyone running BSB at the moment but past him, the series is largely unimpressive. I rate Jamie Hacking is a very talented rider, although he is in his mid-30s with little to no SBK pedigree to show for it. Tommy Hayden may have the talent to compete, but he seems to be too mercurial for it to show on any regular basis. If we were talking Zemke three or four seasons ago, I would be confident he could hold his own in any SBK series in the world. I think he's slowed down some in fatherhood. Bostrom the same scenario except eight years ago and it's not fatherhood that's slowed him down, it's too many ventures happening simultaneously. Disalvo is a flameout. I think Roger Hayden will be a career AMA guy. I don't think Blake Young has world championship potential. I don't think Aaron Yates had what it took in his prime, much less six years later. Josh Hayes is a veteran satellite guy in the AMA, I don't think he has it either.
Bit of a sad state of affairs at the moment. But there is young talent coming through, just not at this sort of a national level yet.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 5 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Firstly our series runs to regulations closer to the world championship, and attracts more factory teams and international riders.
Which is why I want the AMA to adopt WSBK spec rules. And so we can have wildcard rides again.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 5 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It also operates on more world class tracks and produces more exciting racing.
Aren't there some notoriously dodgy tracks on the BSB schedule? The AMA does race at a few ovals unfortunately, but we have tracks like Laguna Seca, Road America, Miller Motorsports Park and Barber. Road America would be the only one incapable of holding a world championship event because of safety, but it's a top circuit nonetheless.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 5 2009, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Additionally to that, recently BSB has simply produced more riders that have gone on to ride at world championship level.
I thought I had you with this one, but it's a lot closer than I thought it would be.
Troy Bayliss, 2001 WSBK World Champion. Neil Hodgson, 2003 WSBK World Champion. James Toseland, 2004 and 2007 WSBK World Champion.
Kenny Roberts Jr., 2000 500cc World Champion. Colin Edwards, 2000 and 2002 WSBK World Champion. Nicky Hayden, 2006 MotoGP World Champion.
Although BSB may have produced more riders competing at a world championship level, AMA riders have collected the same amount of world championships since 2000. One could also make the argument that the 500cc and MotoGP crowns are worth more than the WSBK championships.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Apr 6 2009, 08:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Mladin could likely beat anyone running BSB at the moment but past him, the series is largely unimpressive. I rate Jamie Hacking is a very talented rider, although he is in his mid-30s with little to no SBK pedigree to show for it. Tommy Hayden may have the talent to compete, but he seems to be too mercurial for it to show on any regular basis. If we were talking Zemke three or four seasons ago, I would be confident he could hold his own in any SBK series in the world. I think he's slowed down some in fatherhood. Bostrom the same scenario except eight years ago and it's not fatherhood that's slowed him down, it's too many ventures happening simultaneously. Disalvo is a flameout. I think Roger Hayden will be a career AMA guy. I don't think Blake Young has world championship potential. I don't think Aaron Yates had what it took in his prime, much less six years later. Josh Hayes is a veteran satellite guy in the AMA, I don't think he has it either.
Bit of a sad state of affairs at the moment. But there is young talent coming through, just not at this sort of a national level yet.
Disagree Austin. I think you don't give these guys enough credit. I don't think you are extrapulating how they might fair against a 'standard of comparison' that both lists of (BSB/AMA) riders have encountered--Ben Spies. If Mladin/Spies are the bell-weather of comparison, all those impressive BSB riders that made the switch to WSBK would be put in perspective if you asked yourself how they might fair if those same riders where here in the AMA? As you state yourself: "I think Mladin could likely beat anyone running BSB at the moment..." And I agree, I think they would look equally dismal here against Mladin. So does that make them "unimpressive"? Would that make them as "unimpressive" as your list of American riders? Josh Hayes held his own in a wild card last year in WSBK SS on a one-off ride. You started the above paragraph by saying Mladin would be the cut above, but you didn't carry the reasoning to extraulate how that group of former BSB riders now in WSBK would fair in America. I think we would find that they would look equally "uinpressive" as you characterized the list of Americans. Keep in mind, Kiyo/Byrne are the outright champs who diced with the list of BSB riders now in WSBK. That is, they are much closer in rider talent as their peers--the list of BSB riders who recently made the jump to WSBK. I don't follow BSB (as it is very difficult State-side, but I do read and watch the season reviews), but I do recall the racing being much tighter. Do you see what I'm getting at? So then, were are they now (Kiyo/Byrne)? Spies has made them look like Spies made the list of American riders look while here in the States. Kiyo/Byrne as still dicing with the same riders they diced while in the BSB, making their peers about as good as they are. So would you characterize them (the new Brits from BSB) "unimpressive" too since they have come 15-20++ seconds addrift of Spies? Guess what, that's about the margin that the list of American riders use to come adrift from Spies too while in the States. So no, I completely disagree with the idea that BSB is in any wayy shape or form a cut above the AMA. As you know, I give the edge to the AMA.
Bit of a sad state of affairs at the moment. But there is young talent coming through, just not at this sort of a national level yet.
Disagree Austin. I think you don't give these guys enough credit. I don't think you are extrapulating how they might fair against a 'standard of comparison' that both lists of (BSB/AMA) riders have encountered--Ben Spies. If Mladin/Spies are the bell-weather of comparison, all those impressive BSB riders that made the switch to WSBK would be put in perspective if you asked yourself how they might fair if those same riders where here in the AMA? As you state yourself: "I think Mladin could likely beat anyone running BSB at the moment..." And I agree, I think they would look equally dismal here against Mladin. So does that make them "unimpressive"? Would that make them as "unimpressive" as your list of American riders? Josh Hayes held his own in a wild card last year in WSBK SS on a one-off ride. You started the above paragraph by saying Mladin would be the cut above, but you didn't carry the reasoning to extraulate how that group of former BSB riders now in WSBK would fair in America. I think we would find that they would look equally "uinpressive" as you characterized the list of Americans. Keep in mind, Kiyo/Byrne are the outright champs who diced with the list of BSB riders now in WSBK. That is, they are much closer in rider talent as their peers--the list of BSB riders who recently made the jump to WSBK. I don't follow BSB (as it is very difficult State-side, but I do read and watch the season reviews), but I do recall the racing being much tighter. Do you see what I'm getting at? So then, were are they now (Kiyo/Byrne)? Spies has made them look like Spies made the list of American riders look while here in the States. Kiyo/Byrne as still dicing with the same riders they diced while in the BSB, making their peers about as good as they are. So would you characterize them (the new Brits from BSB) "unimpressive" too since they have come 15-20++ seconds addrift of Spies? Guess what, that's about the margin that the list of American riders use to come adrift from Spies too while in the States. So no, I completely disagree with the idea that BSB is in any wayy shape or form a cut above the AMA. As you know, I give the edge to the AMA.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Apr 6 2009, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1.Which is why I want the AMA to adopt WSBK spec rules. And so we can have wildcard rides again.
2. Aren't there some notoriously dodgy tracks on the BSB schedule?
3.I thought I had you with this one, but it's a lot closer than I thought it would be.
Troy Bayliss, 2001 WSBK World Champion. Neil Hodgson, 2003 WSBK World Champion. James Toseland, 2004 and 2007 WSBK World Champion.
Kenny Roberts Jr., 2000 500cc World Champion. Colin Edwards, 2000 and 2002 WSBK World Champion. Nicky Hayden, 2006 MotoGP World Champion.
Although BSB may have produced more riders competing at a world championship level, AMA riders have collected the same amount of world championships since 2000. One could also make the argument that the 500cc and MotoGP crowns are worth more than the WSBK championships.
1. I agree it'd be nice wouldn't it
2. Yes, we do have a few sketchy ones. The thing with the British tracks is that they are mostly very old and not purpose built, making them often thin and laid out in a way which has become dangerous with increasing speeds, with no way to solve the problem effectively other than adding chincanes, which is horrible.
3. Firstly, the BSB AMA comparison isn't really valid pre 95 when the BSB was actually establishsed, it is a relatively young series. So that brings the AMA world title tally down to 1. Also, if you were to include riders who graduated from the AMA and BSB paddocks rather than just the superbike class, we'd be able to add Stoner and Vermuellen to our list.
2. Aren't there some notoriously dodgy tracks on the BSB schedule?
3.I thought I had you with this one, but it's a lot closer than I thought it would be.
Troy Bayliss, 2001 WSBK World Champion. Neil Hodgson, 2003 WSBK World Champion. James Toseland, 2004 and 2007 WSBK World Champion.
Kenny Roberts Jr., 2000 500cc World Champion. Colin Edwards, 2000 and 2002 WSBK World Champion. Nicky Hayden, 2006 MotoGP World Champion.
Although BSB may have produced more riders competing at a world championship level, AMA riders have collected the same amount of world championships since 2000. One could also make the argument that the 500cc and MotoGP crowns are worth more than the WSBK championships.
1. I agree it'd be nice wouldn't it
2. Yes, we do have a few sketchy ones. The thing with the British tracks is that they are mostly very old and not purpose built, making them often thin and laid out in a way which has become dangerous with increasing speeds, with no way to solve the problem effectively other than adding chincanes, which is horrible.
3. Firstly, the BSB AMA comparison isn't really valid pre 95 when the BSB was actually establishsed, it is a relatively young series. So that brings the AMA world title tally down to 1. Also, if you were to include riders who graduated from the AMA and BSB paddocks rather than just the superbike class, we'd be able to add Stoner and Vermuellen to our list.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 4 2009, 01:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would say that if you looked back over the last decade, BSB has consistently produced better racing than AMA, it also launched the WSB career of Bayliss and Hodgson - and obviously the fact that GSE are such a sorted team had a great deal to do with that. Currently, I think the standard at the front of the field is superior in AMA, but it is a series which notoriously lacks depth in field, something that Hodgson found alarming upon his arrival four seasons back. He commented on the fact that some of the backmarkers he encountered wouldn't be out of place in group two on a midweek trackday at Pembrey. He also added that many of the circuits in America were extremely difficult to learn, and very technically challenging. On that subject however I would contentiously add that you could take any rider currently from the AMA, sling him on the best bike in BSB and he wouldn't win the championship for exactly the same reason - the circuits which over here are a major headfuck. That's why I was in awe of riders like Steve Baker, KR, Randy, Schwantz etc etc - their ability to come over here in the Trans Atlantic challenges and kick .... Take Mallory for example, which Bob Macyntyre refused to race at because he claimed it was so deceptively easy it was a death trap. These days I simply couldn't see a rider like Aaron Yates for example coming over here and running at the front at Knockhill in the pissing rain, or Tommy Hayden doing the business at Croft or Snetterton in a galeforce wind, without even makng mention of Cadwell and Oulton. Other than Hodgson, our recent exports to the AMA, Mason, Davies, McWilliams, Ellison have hardly set the series alight, Chaz's Daytona win being disappointingly obtained by default. I would concede, that tracks like the wonderful Road America, Laguna, or the decidedly dodgy Fontana, would be just as daunting for differing reasons.
I do however agree with you Jum that the cream of current potential rider exports are of a far higher standard in the AMA series. That said, please keep one eye on our lad Crutchlow in supersport - he's a real fighter and has the conviction and will to win. Ditto Eugene Laverty. I was really pleased to see Josh Hayes race WSS last year, and rate him highly, as I do Zemke who I would love to see race in Europe. Although I agree that there are a host of riders that could come across from AMA and make a significant impact, (an I would love to see this happen), a 123 is unlikely given the innate disparities in machinery...they would have to be assured of the top rides. I remember reading that the Makitia Suzuki's ridden by Maladin and Spies were consistently of a higher spec/budget and level of factory support afforded to the Alstare machines. Added to that, why would the likes of Maladin decamp himself, Peter Doyle and select members of his crew into a European based series, when they can negotiate triple the race revenue and sponsorship in the States. He's got his import business on the side, and his airplanes to entertain him. AMA pays big bucks to the top riders, which maddeningly accounts for the inertia of so many of its top riders. So many are content where they are...it comes down to being happy and content with your lot, which I think in spite of these troubled times, a lot of Americans are in general over their Anglo-European counterparts. Ask any rider in BSB, and unless their names Michael Rutter or Scott Smart, they all want to branch out onto the World Stage. I don't think there's quite the same impetus Stateside, which is a shame given the talent that the AMA produces. That said, we'll never produce a rider sufficiently laid back to take a year long sabbatical in order to farm mango's in South America.
-so it's not always about the money. For a while it seemed that Spies main barrier to world domination was not his faultering negotiations with Crescent Suzuki, but his pathological fear of flying!!
Most importantly, AMA has the greatest pedigree......., you guys invented the superbike as we know it - (all hail Steve McClaughlin), and in Merkel on the RC30, gave us the first World Champion. Then there was Russell. Prior to that, Cooley, Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Shobert, Schwantz, GPZ's locking horns with CB9's - that's what it was all about.
The more the influx of talented American riders in WSB the better, (and that goes out to the antipodean fraternity as well who haven't exactly acquitted themselves badly on the world stage over the years).
In the light of their big 'up-yours' to DMG, American Honda should've despatched their race team straight over to Italy and competed in WSB for a year or two (but left Hodgson behind sunning himself at Laguna Beach in the process
)
excellent!
I do however agree with you Jum that the cream of current potential rider exports are of a far higher standard in the AMA series. That said, please keep one eye on our lad Crutchlow in supersport - he's a real fighter and has the conviction and will to win. Ditto Eugene Laverty. I was really pleased to see Josh Hayes race WSS last year, and rate him highly, as I do Zemke who I would love to see race in Europe. Although I agree that there are a host of riders that could come across from AMA and make a significant impact, (an I would love to see this happen), a 123 is unlikely given the innate disparities in machinery...they would have to be assured of the top rides. I remember reading that the Makitia Suzuki's ridden by Maladin and Spies were consistently of a higher spec/budget and level of factory support afforded to the Alstare machines. Added to that, why would the likes of Maladin decamp himself, Peter Doyle and select members of his crew into a European based series, when they can negotiate triple the race revenue and sponsorship in the States. He's got his import business on the side, and his airplanes to entertain him. AMA pays big bucks to the top riders, which maddeningly accounts for the inertia of so many of its top riders. So many are content where they are...it comes down to being happy and content with your lot, which I think in spite of these troubled times, a lot of Americans are in general over their Anglo-European counterparts. Ask any rider in BSB, and unless their names Michael Rutter or Scott Smart, they all want to branch out onto the World Stage. I don't think there's quite the same impetus Stateside, which is a shame given the talent that the AMA produces. That said, we'll never produce a rider sufficiently laid back to take a year long sabbatical in order to farm mango's in South America.
Most importantly, AMA has the greatest pedigree......., you guys invented the superbike as we know it - (all hail Steve McClaughlin), and in Merkel on the RC30, gave us the first World Champion. Then there was Russell. Prior to that, Cooley, Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Shobert, Schwantz, GPZ's locking horns with CB9's - that's what it was all about.
The more the influx of talented American riders in WSB the better, (and that goes out to the antipodean fraternity as well who haven't exactly acquitted themselves badly on the world stage over the years).
In the light of their big 'up-yours' to DMG, American Honda should've despatched their race team straight over to Italy and competed in WSB for a year or two (but left Hodgson behind sunning himself at Laguna Beach in the process
excellent!
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 6 2009, 09:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Also, if you were to include riders who graduated from the AMA and BSB paddocks rather than just the superbike class, we'd be able to add Stoner and Vermuellen to our list.
Do you consider the English 125 series BSB? And if you're going to then you can add a few more Americans to that list of "paddock" graduates to the higher echelons of the sport: Roberts, Edwards, Hopkins, and Hayden (and soon to be Spies).
Do you consider the English 125 series BSB? And if you're going to then you can add a few more Americans to that list of "paddock" graduates to the higher echelons of the sport: Roberts, Edwards, Hopkins, and Hayden (and soon to be Spies).
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 5 2009, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie for your benefit i will ellaborate (again) on why i think BSB is a higher level championship than AMA superbike. It's fairly simple. Firstly our series runs to regulations closer to the world championship, and attracts more factory teams and international riders.
It also operates on more world class tracks and produces more exciting racing.
Additionally to that, recently BSB has simply produced more riders that have gone on to ride at world championship level.
That the regulations closer mimic WSBK regulations means what? AMA & MotoGP regulations are a universe apart, but that hasn't stopped the AMA from producing riders that have had success at the World level. Advantage, AMA
The US has it share of world class venues. Push. on the fantastic tracks in both series, granted we have Daytona & Fontana; however, what's up with those small tracks unsafe tracks with them horrible chicanes and guard rails everywhere like Mallory Park, Cadwell Park, and laps almost under a minute (Lydden Hill). Geez, they seem more like go kart tracks on steroids. Advantage, AMA.
BSB has graduated two champs that have so far looked fairly "mediocre" at the world stage, compare that to the recent AMA export. BSB has exported a champ to the AMA, he has yet to be successful. BSB (proper) has yet to match exporting a successful rider to MotoGP. Advantage, AMA.
It also operates on more world class tracks and produces more exciting racing.
Additionally to that, recently BSB has simply produced more riders that have gone on to ride at world championship level.
That the regulations closer mimic WSBK regulations means what? AMA & MotoGP regulations are a universe apart, but that hasn't stopped the AMA from producing riders that have had success at the World level. Advantage, AMA
The US has it share of world class venues. Push. on the fantastic tracks in both series, granted we have Daytona & Fontana; however, what's up with those small tracks unsafe tracks with them horrible chicanes and guard rails everywhere like Mallory Park, Cadwell Park, and laps almost under a minute (Lydden Hill). Geez, they seem more like go kart tracks on steroids. Advantage, AMA.
BSB has graduated two champs that have so far looked fairly "mediocre" at the world stage, compare that to the recent AMA export. BSB has exported a champ to the AMA, he has yet to be successful. BSB (proper) has yet to match exporting a successful rider to MotoGP. Advantage, AMA.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 5 2009, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie for your benefit i will ellaborate (again) on why i think BSB is a higher level championship than AMA superbike. It's fairly simple. Firstly our series runs to regulations closer to the world championship, and attracts more factory teams and international riders. It also operates on more world class tracks and produces more exciting racing. Additionally to that, recently BSB has simply produced more riders that have gone on to ride at world championship level.
Adopting WSBK rules cost you nearly every decent rider you had in BSB. BSB SBK should adopt the AMA SBK rules if AMA superbike proves to be successful. Then BSB and AMA should form a Transatlantic series.
Transatlantic races run in England would be sanctioned by BSB and Transatlantic races in America will be sanctioned by the AMA. The series should avoid any entanglements with the FIM by using dual sanctioning. The series could be 4 invitational events for the top 10 in each series. The invitational tournament/series would be run run in addition to normal AMA and BSB seasons.
A Transatlantic series should increase viewership/interest in both series and it might help attract sponsors as well.
Lots of potential problems but worth it, imo.
BSB is better b/c it uses WSBK rules
Adopting WSBK rules cost you nearly every decent rider you had in BSB. BSB SBK should adopt the AMA SBK rules if AMA superbike proves to be successful. Then BSB and AMA should form a Transatlantic series.
Transatlantic races run in England would be sanctioned by BSB and Transatlantic races in America will be sanctioned by the AMA. The series should avoid any entanglements with the FIM by using dual sanctioning. The series could be 4 invitational events for the top 10 in each series. The invitational tournament/series would be run run in addition to normal AMA and BSB seasons.
A Transatlantic series should increase viewership/interest in both series and it might help attract sponsors as well.
Lots of potential problems but worth it, imo.
BSB is better b/c it uses WSBK rules
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Arrabbiata, I must say its always a pleasure to read your posts, they are fair and balance, well informed and substantiated, on top of the fact that your writing is eloquent. So I think its fair to reciprocate with a more thorough response.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 4 2009, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would say that if you looked back over the last decade, BSB has consistently produced better racing than AMA
As to the question which series is "better", it’s obviously a difficult if not impossible question to answer. There is such subjectivity and very little head to head evidence to draw from, however, the little evidence available we can extrapolate for the purpose of debate. Its really more for the fun of splitting hairs to debate the merits of which series is ranked higher, that is assuming we where to rank national series from "best to..." Each series has it merits for sure, having said that, its my opinion that the more prestigious, competitive, higher status of sorts between national series is the AMA.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>it also launched the WSB career of Bayliss and Hodgson - and obviously the fact that GSE are such a sorted team had a great deal to do with that. Currently, I think the standard at the front of the field is superior in AMA, but it is a series which notoriously lacks depth in field, something that Hodgson found alarming upon his arrival four seasons back. He commented on the fact that some of the backmarkers he encountered wouldn't be out of place in group two on a midweek trackday at Pembrey.
Over the last decade we have seen factories come and go and grid sizes and depth ebb and flow. Both AMA and BSB has seen up to five factory teams, though in the area of satellite/privateer team, I'd give the advantage to AMA for having a few more strong privateer teams (at least in numbers 4-6+, where as BSB may have 3+ well funded privateers teams). The BSB privateer seats are much more coveted therefore, coveted riders take the seat; point being: the lack of depth is more a function of available seats in a BSB grid. Where as in the AMA, you have your strong privateers then you have the other less funded privateers that become backmarkets making it appear that there is a lack of depth; but what you are seeing are the 2nd tier of privateers not seen in BSB grids. You get what I'm saying? In other words, eliminate that second tier and you got what BSB has, a few well-funded and strong privateer teams and riders. Difference is the AMA grid is a bit larger (or at least has been at times). I believe this is what Hodgson refers to, and on top of that, each round has "track specialist" who don't run the entire series but because the rules, are allow to participate in rounds creating even more backmarkers. Depending on your view, these riders actually add to the challenge of racecraft to negotiate these "obstacles" in the latter stage of the races. This also speaks to AMA's lax qualifying standard; it’s a bit too inclusive. The gap between the factory and privateer is greater in the AMA compared to the BSB; so when you say the BSB has "better" racing, well I agree that the 'consistency' of the field is more even but that doesn't mean they as BSB riders are "better" because there is a lack of 2nd tier riders in the same race.
May I also add, that Hodgson shouldn't be talking much about “depth” (though I like the guy) since he has not made much of an impact in the AMA. Which brings up the point, what series attracts whom? That is, who wants to race where between the two series (which says something about its prestige and elevation, right? Well in 2005-07 BSB had 3 former WSBK riders and 2 former GP riders, while the AMA had 3 former WSBK riders, Neil being a former WSBK champion of the series, and several more former GP riders have ridden at AMA events. I know we may disagree on this point, since you mentioned that GP riders going to WSBK did not "elevate" the series (in the thread discussing Hopkins’s entry in WSBK); however, I contend that it does elevate by virtue of adding proven world level riders together in a series; hence, concentration and “elevating” the level of competitiveness between riders. So here both series have world level riders returning to a national series, however, the AMA can claim at least one is a "World" champion as well as a greater number of former GP participants in events. (If Colin Edwards ever returns, then we will have two, haha). BTW, if Neil Hodgson is any bell-weather of the caliber of BSB champs produced, well then a 6th classification in his first season with AMA followed by a 5th finish may speak of something, eh.. (Yes, I'm stooping a little bit).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>He also added that many of the circuits in America were extremely difficult to learn, and very technically challenging. On that subject however I would contentiously add that you could take any rider currently from the AMA, sling him on the best bike in BSB and he wouldn't win the championship for exactly the same reason - the circuits which over here are a major headfuck. That's why I was in awe of riders like Steve Baker, KR, Randy, Schwantz etc etc - their ability to come over here in the Trans Atlantic challenges and kick .... Take Mallory for example, which Bob Macyntyre refused to race at because he claimed it was so deceptively easy it was a death trap. These days I simply couldn't see a rider like Aaron Yates for example coming over here and running at the front at Knockhill in the pissing rain, or Tommy Hayden doing the business at Croft or Snetterton in a galeforce wind, without even makng mention of Cadwell and Oulton. Other than Hodgson, our recent exports to the AMA, Mason, Davies, McWilliams, Ellison have hardly set the series alight, Chaz's Daytona win being disappointingly obtained by default. I would concede, that tracks like the wonderful Road America, Laguna, or the decidedly dodgy Fontana, would be just as daunting for differing reasons.
Ah the tracks, yes, both series have wonderful venues, then as if it were as sick joke, they mix in some horrible places both to ride and view. We have Daytona and Fontana. Ugly and marginally safe. You have Mallory Park, Cadwell Park, and Oulton. Have you seen Lydden Hill? Well then, perhaps as you say, it speaks to the challenge of the riders to adapt and learn diverse tracks in order to win the championship of respective series. As you contend that an AMA rider would have difficulty negotiating a "mind-...." track (haha, I like that description) well I'd contend having a BSB rider on a high degree banking at 200mph with a concrete barrier as your guide only to be greeted with a high-speed chicane (Fontana--several riders say this is the most mentally/physically demanding section of any racetrack visited) might screw with some BSB heads too. As far as weather, it can get pretty ugly in the east coast though I think you boys have the market on wet weather racing, seriously, its amazing to see BSB riding around while its pissing down, I was at Indy last year so I can only imagine what a season is like in the UK). If you want to talk winds though, Miller Park can pick you up and set you down 5 feet from where you were standing.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I do however agree with you Jum that the cream of current potential rider exports are of a far higher standard in the AMA series. That said, please keep one eye on our lad Crutchlow in supersport - he's a real fighter and has the conviction and will to win. Ditto Eugene Laverty. I was really pleased to see Josh Hayes race WSS last year, and rate him highly, as I do Zemke who I would love to see race in Europe.
Yes, I am very high on the Brits that came over from the BSB. I have mentioned it several times on these superbike threads. Byrne, Haslam, Rea, Sykes, Crutchlow have been a real treat to watch. I said it before, that I thought these would be the ones to beat, and expected Byrne to have a real chance at the title in his first year out. I still remember his masterful win as a wild card in WSBK back in the day (can’t remember year but I know it happened). Though I admit I had more of an interest in Haslam (because of his pedigree) and Crutchlow, because he reminds me of a kid here named Blake Young, as you say, "fighters". A few years ago I met some chaps at Laguna that had a Rea t-.... on, I asked them about hime and they said he would be in WSBK some day. That name stuck to my memory and low and behold, here he is. So BSB has had a real export of very good riders. Which in a way has depleted the BSB (that is in reference to AMA and how they stack up to eachother) though I keep hearing good things about Leon Camier (is he the real deal or a small fish in a depleted pond?)
Though I would like to mention, the fact that BSB is exporting to WSBK and AMA is not doesn’t mean the riders left behind are crap. But I know you know that, I’m just saying this so when Tom reads this he won’t make the leap.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Although I agree that there are a host of riders that could come across from AMA and make a significant impact, (an I would love to see this happen), a 123 is unlikely given the innate disparities in machinery...they would have to be assured of the top rides. I remember reading that the Makitia Suzuki's ridden by Maladin and Spies were consistently of a higher spec/budget and level of factory support afforded to the Alstare machines. Added to that, why would the likes of Maladin decamp himself, Peter Doyle and select members of his crew into a European based series, when they can negotiate triple the race revenue and sponsorship in the States. He's got his import business on the side, and his airplanes to entertain him. AMA pays big bucks to the top riders, which maddeningly accounts for the inertia of so many of its top riders. So many are content where they are...it comes down to being happy and content with your lot, which I think in spite of these troubled times, a lot of Americans are in general over their Anglo-European counterparts. Ask any rider in BSB, and unless their names Michael Rutter or Scott Smart, they all want to branch out onto the World Stage. I don't think there's quite the same impetus Stateside, which is a shame given the talent that the AMA produces. That said, we'll never produce a rider sufficiently laid back to take a year long sabbatical in order to farm mango's in South America.
-so it's not always about the money. For a while it seemed that Spies main barrier to world domination was not his faultering negotiations with Crescent Suzuki, but his pathological fear of flying!!
Well buddy, the comment I made about having a potential 123 finish in WSBK is based on Mladin and Spies about the same. So conceivably we could see a 1-2, do you agree (provided they were both on good teams)? Now I stretched this 123 with Tommy Hayden because he has diced with Mladin (the standard), so it would follow, if on an equal footing at some point in the season, maybe say Miller we could see a 123 of former AMA riders at a WSBK event. (Yes, all speculative, but conceivable).
On to the rest of your point, well here you bring up a great issue. The money thrown at the riders in the AMA. If this says anything about the two series there is no doubt which of the two will provide a better livelihood. Of course this is a matter of market, and when comparing the two countries, well there is no comparison really in terms of size, which may or may not account for the salaries of top factory riders. I say may or may not account because though the sheer number of residents is vastly lob sided, I really wonder who actually has the greater number of avid motorcycle racing fans. The amount of coverage for BSB trumps AMA, therefore, it would seem that for marketing value, companies could get a greater number of solid impression in the UK. But unless a reliable count was taken, I’m really not sure which of the two series have loyal fans following it. Regardless, this for me is another indication as to why I rank AMA above BSB, that is follow the money. So much money is involved for the top AMA factory riders that they have no incentive to move on to the world stage (other than a personal goal). So what happens is you have a concentration of talent sticking around where as you have BSB guys chomping at the bit to leave for World Superbike. This may be a reason why BSB uses WSBK as a stepping stone to the pinnacle of the sport, where as AMA has typically skipped WSBK and gone straight into MotoGP.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Most importantly, AMA has the greatest pedigree......., you guys invented the superbike as we know it - (all hail Steve McClaughlin), and in Merkel on the RC30, gave us the first World Champion. Then there was Russell. Prior to that, Cooley, Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Shobert, Schwantz, GPZ's locking horns with CB9's - that's what it was all about.
The more the influx of talented American riders in WSB the better, (and that goes out to the antipodean fraternity as well who haven't exactly acquitted themselves badly on the world stage over the years).
True, there is no mistaking the illustrious history of AMA producing riders making an impact to the pinnacle of the sport. And as Tom contends, it might be unfair to compare AMA & BSB prior to 95. I disagree; I contend it needs to be part of the conversation and the formula for comparing the national series as it speaks to the status relative to eachother. The fact that BSB is young speaks to the lack of prestige of a long and storied history that is the AMA. Sure, we cannot compare sheer numbers of graduates to the world stage before the inception of BSB, however, this fact says to me that the status has to be overtaken, something I don't think has happened. And now with the American AMA champ having such a great showing against recent BSB exports, I believe it has elevated again the AMA. You see, I believe Europeans had forgot the position of the AMA since Europeans have placed so much focus in European series such as the BSB and the Spanish Formula Extreme (BTW, as series that could give the BSB & AMA riders a run for their money).
The AMA had been forgotten, that is until we exported a champ who has had a cracker of a start. Now you have people taking a second look at the AMA and saying, oh yeah, so who is good over there? And who could blame them, we haven’t been sending much to the WSBK stage for a while since Edwards has been a MotoGP regular for a while, and his “lack luster” success has tricked people into thinking American racers lack skill. (Purely my speculation).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>In the light of their big 'up-yours' to DMG, American Honda should've dispatched their race team straight over to Italy and competed in WSB for a year or two (but left Hodgson behind sunning himself at Laguna Beach in the process
)
Haha, I could only hope my friend. I'd love to see some of the boys going head to head with the Euros.
Ok, now having said all this, I must add that one thing the BSB has on the AMA is bike livery. The AMA looks dull while the BSB bikes look like true world machines. And the fans that show up to BSB (well at least from the videos I see) look like they draw larger more enthusiastic crowds.
So which series is more competitive, has more prestige, is the premiere national series? Ah, that is a hard one brotha. I say the AMA historically. But the AMA has a new sheriff in town. DMG may be the turning point for BSB to gain the upper hand (if it hasn’t already). So perhaps in a few years, you may be right. Which will leave us very sad. Stay tuned.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 4 2009, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would say that if you looked back over the last decade, BSB has consistently produced better racing than AMA
As to the question which series is "better", it’s obviously a difficult if not impossible question to answer. There is such subjectivity and very little head to head evidence to draw from, however, the little evidence available we can extrapolate for the purpose of debate. Its really more for the fun of splitting hairs to debate the merits of which series is ranked higher, that is assuming we where to rank national series from "best to..." Each series has it merits for sure, having said that, its my opinion that the more prestigious, competitive, higher status of sorts between national series is the AMA.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>it also launched the WSB career of Bayliss and Hodgson - and obviously the fact that GSE are such a sorted team had a great deal to do with that. Currently, I think the standard at the front of the field is superior in AMA, but it is a series which notoriously lacks depth in field, something that Hodgson found alarming upon his arrival four seasons back. He commented on the fact that some of the backmarkers he encountered wouldn't be out of place in group two on a midweek trackday at Pembrey.
Over the last decade we have seen factories come and go and grid sizes and depth ebb and flow. Both AMA and BSB has seen up to five factory teams, though in the area of satellite/privateer team, I'd give the advantage to AMA for having a few more strong privateer teams (at least in numbers 4-6+, where as BSB may have 3+ well funded privateers teams). The BSB privateer seats are much more coveted therefore, coveted riders take the seat; point being: the lack of depth is more a function of available seats in a BSB grid. Where as in the AMA, you have your strong privateers then you have the other less funded privateers that become backmarkets making it appear that there is a lack of depth; but what you are seeing are the 2nd tier of privateers not seen in BSB grids. You get what I'm saying? In other words, eliminate that second tier and you got what BSB has, a few well-funded and strong privateer teams and riders. Difference is the AMA grid is a bit larger (or at least has been at times). I believe this is what Hodgson refers to, and on top of that, each round has "track specialist" who don't run the entire series but because the rules, are allow to participate in rounds creating even more backmarkers. Depending on your view, these riders actually add to the challenge of racecraft to negotiate these "obstacles" in the latter stage of the races. This also speaks to AMA's lax qualifying standard; it’s a bit too inclusive. The gap between the factory and privateer is greater in the AMA compared to the BSB; so when you say the BSB has "better" racing, well I agree that the 'consistency' of the field is more even but that doesn't mean they as BSB riders are "better" because there is a lack of 2nd tier riders in the same race.
May I also add, that Hodgson shouldn't be talking much about “depth” (though I like the guy) since he has not made much of an impact in the AMA. Which brings up the point, what series attracts whom? That is, who wants to race where between the two series (which says something about its prestige and elevation, right? Well in 2005-07 BSB had 3 former WSBK riders and 2 former GP riders, while the AMA had 3 former WSBK riders, Neil being a former WSBK champion of the series, and several more former GP riders have ridden at AMA events. I know we may disagree on this point, since you mentioned that GP riders going to WSBK did not "elevate" the series (in the thread discussing Hopkins’s entry in WSBK); however, I contend that it does elevate by virtue of adding proven world level riders together in a series; hence, concentration and “elevating” the level of competitiveness between riders. So here both series have world level riders returning to a national series, however, the AMA can claim at least one is a "World" champion as well as a greater number of former GP participants in events. (If Colin Edwards ever returns, then we will have two, haha). BTW, if Neil Hodgson is any bell-weather of the caliber of BSB champs produced, well then a 6th classification in his first season with AMA followed by a 5th finish may speak of something, eh.. (Yes, I'm stooping a little bit).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>He also added that many of the circuits in America were extremely difficult to learn, and very technically challenging. On that subject however I would contentiously add that you could take any rider currently from the AMA, sling him on the best bike in BSB and he wouldn't win the championship for exactly the same reason - the circuits which over here are a major headfuck. That's why I was in awe of riders like Steve Baker, KR, Randy, Schwantz etc etc - their ability to come over here in the Trans Atlantic challenges and kick .... Take Mallory for example, which Bob Macyntyre refused to race at because he claimed it was so deceptively easy it was a death trap. These days I simply couldn't see a rider like Aaron Yates for example coming over here and running at the front at Knockhill in the pissing rain, or Tommy Hayden doing the business at Croft or Snetterton in a galeforce wind, without even makng mention of Cadwell and Oulton. Other than Hodgson, our recent exports to the AMA, Mason, Davies, McWilliams, Ellison have hardly set the series alight, Chaz's Daytona win being disappointingly obtained by default. I would concede, that tracks like the wonderful Road America, Laguna, or the decidedly dodgy Fontana, would be just as daunting for differing reasons.
Ah the tracks, yes, both series have wonderful venues, then as if it were as sick joke, they mix in some horrible places both to ride and view. We have Daytona and Fontana. Ugly and marginally safe. You have Mallory Park, Cadwell Park, and Oulton. Have you seen Lydden Hill? Well then, perhaps as you say, it speaks to the challenge of the riders to adapt and learn diverse tracks in order to win the championship of respective series. As you contend that an AMA rider would have difficulty negotiating a "mind-...." track (haha, I like that description) well I'd contend having a BSB rider on a high degree banking at 200mph with a concrete barrier as your guide only to be greeted with a high-speed chicane (Fontana--several riders say this is the most mentally/physically demanding section of any racetrack visited) might screw with some BSB heads too. As far as weather, it can get pretty ugly in the east coast though I think you boys have the market on wet weather racing, seriously, its amazing to see BSB riding around while its pissing down, I was at Indy last year so I can only imagine what a season is like in the UK). If you want to talk winds though, Miller Park can pick you up and set you down 5 feet from where you were standing.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I do however agree with you Jum that the cream of current potential rider exports are of a far higher standard in the AMA series. That said, please keep one eye on our lad Crutchlow in supersport - he's a real fighter and has the conviction and will to win. Ditto Eugene Laverty. I was really pleased to see Josh Hayes race WSS last year, and rate him highly, as I do Zemke who I would love to see race in Europe.
Yes, I am very high on the Brits that came over from the BSB. I have mentioned it several times on these superbike threads. Byrne, Haslam, Rea, Sykes, Crutchlow have been a real treat to watch. I said it before, that I thought these would be the ones to beat, and expected Byrne to have a real chance at the title in his first year out. I still remember his masterful win as a wild card in WSBK back in the day (can’t remember year but I know it happened). Though I admit I had more of an interest in Haslam (because of his pedigree) and Crutchlow, because he reminds me of a kid here named Blake Young, as you say, "fighters". A few years ago I met some chaps at Laguna that had a Rea t-.... on, I asked them about hime and they said he would be in WSBK some day. That name stuck to my memory and low and behold, here he is. So BSB has had a real export of very good riders. Which in a way has depleted the BSB (that is in reference to AMA and how they stack up to eachother) though I keep hearing good things about Leon Camier (is he the real deal or a small fish in a depleted pond?)
Though I would like to mention, the fact that BSB is exporting to WSBK and AMA is not doesn’t mean the riders left behind are crap. But I know you know that, I’m just saying this so when Tom reads this he won’t make the leap.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Although I agree that there are a host of riders that could come across from AMA and make a significant impact, (an I would love to see this happen), a 123 is unlikely given the innate disparities in machinery...they would have to be assured of the top rides. I remember reading that the Makitia Suzuki's ridden by Maladin and Spies were consistently of a higher spec/budget and level of factory support afforded to the Alstare machines. Added to that, why would the likes of Maladin decamp himself, Peter Doyle and select members of his crew into a European based series, when they can negotiate triple the race revenue and sponsorship in the States. He's got his import business on the side, and his airplanes to entertain him. AMA pays big bucks to the top riders, which maddeningly accounts for the inertia of so many of its top riders. So many are content where they are...it comes down to being happy and content with your lot, which I think in spite of these troubled times, a lot of Americans are in general over their Anglo-European counterparts. Ask any rider in BSB, and unless their names Michael Rutter or Scott Smart, they all want to branch out onto the World Stage. I don't think there's quite the same impetus Stateside, which is a shame given the talent that the AMA produces. That said, we'll never produce a rider sufficiently laid back to take a year long sabbatical in order to farm mango's in South America.
Well buddy, the comment I made about having a potential 123 finish in WSBK is based on Mladin and Spies about the same. So conceivably we could see a 1-2, do you agree (provided they were both on good teams)? Now I stretched this 123 with Tommy Hayden because he has diced with Mladin (the standard), so it would follow, if on an equal footing at some point in the season, maybe say Miller we could see a 123 of former AMA riders at a WSBK event. (Yes, all speculative, but conceivable).
On to the rest of your point, well here you bring up a great issue. The money thrown at the riders in the AMA. If this says anything about the two series there is no doubt which of the two will provide a better livelihood. Of course this is a matter of market, and when comparing the two countries, well there is no comparison really in terms of size, which may or may not account for the salaries of top factory riders. I say may or may not account because though the sheer number of residents is vastly lob sided, I really wonder who actually has the greater number of avid motorcycle racing fans. The amount of coverage for BSB trumps AMA, therefore, it would seem that for marketing value, companies could get a greater number of solid impression in the UK. But unless a reliable count was taken, I’m really not sure which of the two series have loyal fans following it. Regardless, this for me is another indication as to why I rank AMA above BSB, that is follow the money. So much money is involved for the top AMA factory riders that they have no incentive to move on to the world stage (other than a personal goal). So what happens is you have a concentration of talent sticking around where as you have BSB guys chomping at the bit to leave for World Superbike. This may be a reason why BSB uses WSBK as a stepping stone to the pinnacle of the sport, where as AMA has typically skipped WSBK and gone straight into MotoGP.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Most importantly, AMA has the greatest pedigree......., you guys invented the superbike as we know it - (all hail Steve McClaughlin), and in Merkel on the RC30, gave us the first World Champion. Then there was Russell. Prior to that, Cooley, Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Shobert, Schwantz, GPZ's locking horns with CB9's - that's what it was all about.
The more the influx of talented American riders in WSB the better, (and that goes out to the antipodean fraternity as well who haven't exactly acquitted themselves badly on the world stage over the years).
True, there is no mistaking the illustrious history of AMA producing riders making an impact to the pinnacle of the sport. And as Tom contends, it might be unfair to compare AMA & BSB prior to 95. I disagree; I contend it needs to be part of the conversation and the formula for comparing the national series as it speaks to the status relative to eachother. The fact that BSB is young speaks to the lack of prestige of a long and storied history that is the AMA. Sure, we cannot compare sheer numbers of graduates to the world stage before the inception of BSB, however, this fact says to me that the status has to be overtaken, something I don't think has happened. And now with the American AMA champ having such a great showing against recent BSB exports, I believe it has elevated again the AMA. You see, I believe Europeans had forgot the position of the AMA since Europeans have placed so much focus in European series such as the BSB and the Spanish Formula Extreme (BTW, as series that could give the BSB & AMA riders a run for their money).
The AMA had been forgotten, that is until we exported a champ who has had a cracker of a start. Now you have people taking a second look at the AMA and saying, oh yeah, so who is good over there? And who could blame them, we haven’t been sending much to the WSBK stage for a while since Edwards has been a MotoGP regular for a while, and his “lack luster” success has tricked people into thinking American racers lack skill. (Purely my speculation).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>In the light of their big 'up-yours' to DMG, American Honda should've dispatched their race team straight over to Italy and competed in WSB for a year or two (but left Hodgson behind sunning himself at Laguna Beach in the process
Haha, I could only hope my friend. I'd love to see some of the boys going head to head with the Euros.
Ok, now having said all this, I must add that one thing the BSB has on the AMA is bike livery. The AMA looks dull while the BSB bikes look like true world machines. And the fans that show up to BSB (well at least from the videos I see) look like they draw larger more enthusiastic crowds.
So which series is more competitive, has more prestige, is the premiere national series? Ah, that is a hard one brotha. I say the AMA historically. But the AMA has a new sheriff in town. DMG may be the turning point for BSB to gain the upper hand (if it hasn’t already). So perhaps in a few years, you may be right. Which will leave us very sad. Stay tuned.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 6 2009, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>BSB is better b/c it uses WSBK rules
