So who is the GOAT

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Theo

Theo

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Much as it annoys me, there can be only 1 goat and he leads at the moment by quite a margin. In my opinion its Mike Hailwood, but sadly he loses to his arch foe on a few occasions, yet as you will see at the bottom he only comes 4th, yet I am pleased to see that the person I do loathe comes a lowly 7th :p
I'm sure certain people will rubbish this as they can't stand the fact their man is an also ran.


Rider Wins Wins per year
1. Giacomo Agostini 122 (1965 – 1977) 13 years 9.384
2. Valentino Rossi 115 (1996 – 2018) 22 years 5.272
3. Angel Nieto 90 (1969 – 1985) 17 years 5.294
4. Mike Hailwood 76 (1959 – 1967) 9 years 8.444
5. Jorge Lorenzo 65 (2003 – 2018) 16 years 4.533
6. Marc Marquez 65 (2010 – 2018) 9 years 8.625
7. Michael Doohan 54 (1990 – 1998) 9 years 6
8. Dani Pedrosa 54 (2002 – 2018) 17 years 4.5
= Phil Read 52 (1961 – 1975) 14 years 3.176
10. Jim Redman 45 (1961 – 1966) 5 years 9
= Casey Stoner 45 (2003 – 2012) 9 years 4.5



So looking at it like that the GOAT is Giacomo Agostini followed in order of wins per year.
Jim Redman
Marc Marquez
Mike Hailwood
Michael Doohan
Angel Nieto
Valentino Rossi
Jorge Lorenzo
Casey Stoner
Dani Pedrosa
Phil Read
 
Numbers are not opinable so I guess this will also be a thread about personal thoughts.

Here are mine:

Purest talent in the history of the sport: Casey Stoner.

Most "360 degrees" talented/win oriented rider in the history of the sport: Marc Marquez.



I'll come back with more details about why I think this later :)
 
Theo said:
Much as it annoys me, there can be only 1 goat and he leads at the moment by quite a margin. In my opinion its Mike Hailwood, but sadly he loses to his arch foe on a few occasions, yet as you will see at the bottom he only comes 4th, yet I am pleased to see that the person I do loathe comes a lowly 7th :p
I'm sure certain people will rubbish this as they can't stand the fact their man is an also ran.


Rider Wins Wins per year
1. Giacomo Agostini 122 (1965 – 1977) 13 years 9.384
2. Valentino Rossi 115 (1996 – 2018) 22 years 5.272
3. Angel Nieto 90 (1969 – 1985) 17 years 5.294
4. Mike Hailwood 76 (1959 – 1967) 9 years 8.444
5. Jorge Lorenzo 65 (2003 – 2018) 16 years 4.533
6. Marc Marquez 65 (2010 – 2018) 9 years 8.625
7. Michael Doohan 54 (1990 – 1998) 9 years 6
8. Dani Pedrosa 54 (2002 – 2018) 17 years 4.5
= Phil Read 52 (1961 – 1975) 14 years 3.176
10. Jim Redman 45 (1961 – 1966) 5 years 9
= Casey Stoner 45 (2003 – 2012) 9 years 4.5



So looking at it like that the GOAT is Giacomo Agostini followed in order of wins per year.
Jim Redman
Marc Marquez
Mike Hailwood
Michael Doohan
Angel Nieto
Valentino Rossi
Jorge Lorenzo
Casey Stoner
Dani Pedrosa
Phil Read
Click to expand...
I just can’t put Ago number one knowing that he had advantages that can’t be understated. Factory twin cylinder bikes against privateer single cylinder bikes that literally would be like running a Moto 2 bike against GP machines today. Then you had Rossi with a bike advantage, nothing close to the advantage Ago had but an advantage nonetheless , and the Saturday night special tires again cannot he understated. To me it’s between Marquez and Stoner with Marc getting the nod in numbers and longevity. Spec tire, spec ecu’s, an almost spec engine with the bore being set, the rules are setup to not allow domination but he does anyway. Been following the sport for 50 years and no one I’ve seen rides a bike like Marquez.
 
Holypuck said:
Numbers are not opinable so I guess this will also be a thread about personal thoughts.

Here are mine:

Purest talent in the history of the sport: Casey Stoner.

Most "360 degrees" talented/win oriented rider in the history of the sport: Marc Marquez.
Click to expand...

This is where Im at also.
 
I think it's pretty hard to seperate a few of them. But from what I've read Hailwood is an absoloute standout amongst the early guys including Ago, who has said that if Hailwood didn't go to Honda he(Ago) wouldn't have won much.

I don't think Rossi is the GOAT despite being a great rider. I think his records against Lorenzo, Stoner and a young pre-prime Marquez hurts him alongside with not being able to show the same dominance as Doohan despite similar and at times more advantages disqualifies him from being the GOAT.

Marquez is almost there and I'd argue another title or two probably puts him there given competition and new rules etc. he's arguably already the best ever.
 
Nice comments, TBO I can see MM at the top in the next 2 years, yes some of the others did have unfair advantages.
I believe though that even if everything had been spec as it is now from 1960 on then the data would be different but I don't think that it would be much different.
Marc will be the GOAT for many years to come, he's just outshone everyone with his antics since he reached the premier class.

On another note, I don't like this modern racing much, its become a one size fits all, bit like british schools in fact where nobody is allowed to fail.
I'd rather see a budget being the way to go and the manufacturers can only spend that, it would lead to a far more interesting outcome imo.
 
Hailwood for me, he won Grand Prix on MV, Honda, MZ, Norton and Ducati, 125, 250, 350, 500, singles, twins 4 cylinders etc. Races were longer and the tracks more challenging in those days too.

It is subjective though as different eras and all, I do believe you need to be fitter these days.
 
OK, well here goes but at the same time, each person's criteria will vary.

For me as a Doohan tragic I so want to say Mick and not just because of his wins but in large part due to what he overcame following those early injuries and the sheer likelihood that were it not for the dutch doctor, he would have had 6 titles (remembering the point gap at the time as a fit Doohan would have accumulated enough points). But no matter how hard I try, how much I want it, I cannot say that he is the GOAT.

I do not go with Stoner either as whilst he was for me likely one of the very best outright motorcycle riders and was able to ride poor bikes to great results, longevity is against him but I also fully admit that I like that about Stoner. He came, he saw, he conquered and he went .... you all, I have had enough, and left.

Marquez, well he is well on his way as I simply cannot ignore his ability to race, his ability to dominate or his outright results. He is brutal and has dominated on good bikes and not so good bikes but man, he is only 25 and has so much more to achieve. The guy is easily the best of the last 15 or 20 or so years and I say that with no disrespect intended to others, but for me Marquez is just that bit better and it scares me that he has so much more to give and so much more drive. In saying that, I also fully expect that in a few years Marquez will be spoken of as the GOAT, he is just too good not to be considered.

Nope, for me it is Mike the Bike. Never saw much of him (not televised in Australia) but I did review and do enjoy reading of him, his achievements.

I would give a very honorable mention here to a rider such as Freddie Spencer who I always rate as a mercurial but flawed genius, a man who achieved the double in a season but like Stoner, longevity is against him.

Of course, the yellow elephant in the room is Rossi but like many others I cannot see him as the GOAT for my own reasons, but primarily I just think that there have been better riders and better racers across the years, not just those above either.
 
Gaz said:
OK, well here goes but at the same time, each person's criteria will vary.

For me as a Doohan tragic I so want to say Mick and not just because of his wins but in large part due to what he overcame following those early injuries and the sheer likelihood that were it not for the dutch doctor, he would have had 6 titles (remembering the point gap at the time as a fit Doohan would have accumulated enough points). But no matter how hard I try, how much I want it, I cannot say that he is the GOAT.

I do not go with Stoner either as whilst he was for me likely one of the very best outright motorcycle riders and was able to ride poor bikes to great results, longevity is against him but I also fully admit that I like that about Stoner. He came, he saw, he conquered and he went .... you all, I have had enough, and left.

Marquez, well he is well on his way as I simply cannot ignore his ability to race, his ability to dominate or his outright results. He is brutal and has dominated on good bikes and not so good bikes but man, he is only 25 and has so much more to achieve. The guy is easily the best of the last 15 or 20 or so years and I say that with no disrespect intended to others, but for me Marquez is just that bit better and it scares me that he has so much more to give and so much more drive. In saying that, I also fully expect that in a few years Marquez will be spoken of as the GOAT, he is just too good not to be considered.

Nope, for me it is Mike the Bike. Never saw much of him (not televised in Australia) but I did review and do enjoy reading of him, his achievements.

I would give a very honorable mention here to a rider such as Freddie Spencer who I always rate as a mercurial but flawed genius, a man who achieved the double in a season but like Stoner, longevity is against him.

Of course, the yellow elephant in the room is Rossi but like many others I cannot see him as the GOAT for my own reasons, but primarily I just think that there have been better riders and better racers across the years, not just those above either.
Click to expand...
Up to the bit about Mike the Bike, I agree 100%.

I don't necessarily disagree about Hailwood. Just never witnessed him myself. I think it's difficult to compare times you have witnessed to those you haven't.
That's why an "all time" greatest is near impossible to decide. Makes for good discussion though.
 
I have to disagree about Mike Hailwood. I always held John Surtees in much greater esteem.

Hailwood was what I would call a "playboy". He followed the world circuit when it was really nothing more than a pastime for those who could not get a real job. Sponsorship was not what it is now, back then. And even then didnt his dad fund him? The worlds best riders were not on the world circuit then. I remember him coming over to race a local race here, and being thoroughly outshone. Ago came out here and did way better than Hailwood.

Bit surprised nobody mentions Surtees .... he had class. And skill. And he was a racer.
 
Last edited:
Deefer Dogg said:
Up to the bit about Mike the Bike, I agree 100%.

I don't necessarily disagree about Hailwood. Just never witnessed him myself. I think it's difficult to compare times you have witnessed to those you haven't.
That's why an "all time" greatest is near impossible to decide. Makes for good discussion though.
Click to expand...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LnNP7mw7XY

Take a look at that, Mallory Park 1978, the fastest bikes then were Kawas and Hailwood was on a Ducati which was slower than even the Honda's just shows how good he was and not a kneeslider to be seen.
 
BarryMachine said:
I have to disagree about Mike Hailwood. I always held John Surtees in much greater esteem.

Hailwood was what I would call a "playboy". He followed the world circuit when it was really nothing more than a pastime for those who could not get a real job. Sponsorship was not what it is now, back then. And even then didnt his dad fund him? The worlds best riders were not on the world circuit then. I remember him coming over to race a local race here, and being thoroughly outshone. Ago came out here and did way better than Hailwood.

Bit surprised nobody mentions Surtees .... he had class. And skill. And he was a racer.
Click to expand...

He was world champion on 2 and 4 wheels. :D
 
I meet up with an old fella every year at the TT and he's adamant that the best rider there has ever been is Jarno Saarinen, though unfortunately due to his premature death he never won what his talent could achieve.
 
RCV600RR said:
What does GOAT mean? Define that, and I'll be able to answer.
Click to expand...

Isn't it a given what GOAT means i.e. Greatest (motorbike rider) of all time? Anymore limitations than that and you will exclude periods, series, type of bikes, etc. I think the only limiting factor in this conversation is that it ought to be on street bikes.

Personally I don't think it is possible to assess this. If you take limited 'chunks' of time like decades or start of new advanced technologies (4 stroke vs 2 stoke, TC vs no-TC, etc.) than there is more of a likelihood to come to a consensus and to a correct one at that.
 
AntG said:
I meet up with an old fella every year at the TT and he's adamant that the best rider there has ever been is Jarno Saarinen, though unfortunately due to his premature death he never won what his talent could achieve.
Click to expand...

Was going to mention Saarinen but just have not seen enough and was hoping actually that J4 would pop into the thread as he has discussed Saarinen at length a few times.
 
cucoloco said:
Isn't it a given what GOAT means i.e. Greatest (motorbike rider) of all time? Anymore limitations than that and you will exclude periods, series, type of bikes, etc. I think the only limiting factor in this conversation is that it ought to be on street bikes.

Personally I don't think it is possible to assess this. If you take limited 'chunks' of time like decades or start of new advanced technologies (4 stroke vs 2 stoke, TC vs no-TC, etc.) than there is more of a likelihood to come to a consensus and to a correct one at that.
Click to expand...

I also think it's really hard to assess because it means different things to different people.

What is greatness though? Championships? Championships on different bikes? Championships in different classes? Championships over a long period of time? Championships against high caliber opposition? Wins? Premier class wins? Outright speed? Who would win the championship against all his rivals for GOAT? If so, on what bike (2T 500? 4T 990? 4T 800? What tyres? etc.)
 
RCV600RR said:
I also think it's really hard to assess because it means different things to different people.

What is greatness though? Championships? Championships on different bikes? Championships in different classes? Championships over a long period of time? Championships against high caliber opposition? Wins? Premier class wins? Outright speed? Who would win the championship against all his rivals for GOAT? If so, on what bike (2T 500? 4T 990? 4T 800? What tyres? etc.)
Click to expand...

As I said, GOAT means different things to different people as afterall, greatness is in the eye of the beholder (although after a race that could well be beer holder) which all means that really, whilst we may disagree with some people that person cannot really be wrong as it is afterall, their opinion.

I rate some riders far higher than their stats would show (I seriously rate McCoy for example) and then we have others with good stats who, whilst good riders may not be in discussions for other reasons.

My thoughts only.
 
AntG said:
I meet up with an old fella every year at the TT and he's adamant that the best rider there has ever been is Jarno Saarinen, though unfortunately due to his premature death he never won what his talent could achieve.
Click to expand...

I can see why he thinks that Sarinnen hit and was a breath of fresh air. Complete with a new style. He actually looked like he knew what he was doing on the bike. He was the Stoner of his time.
 

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