Sepang Race Thread

[MdubSTYLIE]

Chronic Fatigue


A certain degree of fatigue is normal in an athlete training hard for their sport or event. However, excessive and persistent fatigue and feelings of legarthy with a reduced sporting performance, often indicate a more serious problem.

There are many possible causes of chronic fatigue and in order to narrow down the possibilities the coach or sports medicine practitioner must ask the right questions:

Is there a constant feeling of fatigue, or does this occur before or after training/competition, at a particular venue (may suggest an allergy) or in warm weather (possible dehydration)
Does the patient fall asleep during the day?
How long has this tiredness been present? (try to establish if it first occurred after a competition, trip abroad or illness etc)
Are there any associated symptoms? (sore throat or a cold may indicate upper respiratory tract infection)
Are there any respiratory symptoms (such as a post-exercise cough or chest tightness) which may indicate exercise induced asthma or lower respiratory tract infection?
Causes of fatigue
As already mentioned there are endless causes of persistent fatigue. Some of the most common are listed here:

Overtraining syndrome
Viral illness
Inadequate diet low in carbohydrate or protein intake
Depletion of iron stores (Anaemia)
Chronic fatigue syndrome
Other conditions to look out for:

Dehydration
Exercise-induced asthma
Allergies
Jet lag
Psychological stress
Medication
Hypothyroidism
Diabetes
Pregnancy
Eating disorders
Infections
Neuromuscular disorders
If the answer to the problem is not immediately apparent, as it is not with so many of these cases, investigations should be undertaken to get to the bottom of the problem


From my sports training guide as how to diagnose chronic fatigue. Note: this is not something a doctor would use. Now this is were keyshaft and others get sensitive on me, you see cfs is a cause of chronic fatigue. But it doesn't not have to exist in people who suffer from chronic fatigue, you feel me?
Now ironically I think they have speculated at one time or another every one of those causes or symptoms. But if I go with what I have seen and what he has said about the issue himself. I would say he falls in the psychological stress category. Here is why I say that. What I seen, cs on a bike that he was incapable of competing for the win and caused him to very upset and frustrated. I seen him flip people off on track, stop in front of someone elses pit box to take a piss on them. What I heard him say, I heard him say week after week that he feels good all week long and come race time his fatigue comes back. I could go on about how he liked cold weather races, rain, and making bad tire choices but I think you get the picture.

I in no way mean to belittle what you are going through keesh, I just don't feel he is dealing with something a serious as what you seem to be. I am sure you will call me a not funny young little ...-clown and I will call you something like old good for nothing turd burglar, sometime in the future. But I wish you the best of luck with what you are going through. I'll take a nap for you later.(just a joke)

 

[Jumkie]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Nov 3 2009, 07:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Chronic Fatigue
...

Overtraining syndrome
Viral illness
Inadequate diet low in carbohydrate or protein intake
Depletion of iron stores (Anaemia)
Chronic fatigue syndrome
Other conditions to look out for:

Dehydration
Exercise-induced asthma
Allergies
Jet lag
Psychological stress
Medication
Hypothyroidism
Diabetes
Pregnancy
Eating disorders
Infections
Neuromuscular disorders
If the answer to the problem is not immediately apparent, as it is not with so many of these cases, investigations should be undertaken to get to the bottom of the problem


Hey Doc, I know what you mean. I have been tired for years and the docs had no answers, that is until they found out I was ....... multiple ....... daily. Turns out, that can cause chronic fatigue. Who knew.? So I've cut back, now I take Sunday's off (hey, I'm religious that way).

Carry on, we only have a few more days till next race.

 

[Keshav]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Nov 3 2009, 11:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Chronic Fatigue


A certain degree of fatigue is normal in an athlete training hard for their sport or event. However, excessive and persistent fatigue and feelings of legarthy with a reduced sporting performance, often indicate a more serious problem.

There are many possible causes of chronic fatigue and in order to narrow down the possibilities the coach or sports medicine practitioner must ask the right questions:

Is there a constant feeling of fatigue, or does this occur before or after training/competition, at a particular venue (may suggest an allergy) or in warm weather (possible dehydration)
Does the patient fall asleep during the day?
How long has this tiredness been present? (try to establish if it first occurred after a competition, trip abroad or illness etc)
Are there any associated symptoms? (sore throat or a cold may indicate upper respiratory tract infection)
Are there any respiratory symptoms (such as a post-exercise cough or chest tightness) which may indicate exercise induced asthma or lower respiratory tract infection?
Causes of fatigue
As already mentioned there are endless causes of persistent fatigue. Some of the most common are listed here:

Overtraining syndrome
Viral illness
Inadequate diet low in carbohydrate or protein intake
Depletion of iron stores (Anaemia)
Chronic fatigue syndrome
Other conditions to look out for:

Dehydration
Exercise-induced asthma
Allergies
Jet lag
Psychological stress
Medication
Hypothyroidism
Diabetes
Pregnancy
Eating disorders
Infections
Neuromuscular disorders
If the answer to the problem is not immediately apparent, as it is not with so many of these cases, investigations should be undertaken to get to the bottom of the problem


From my sports training guide as how to diagnose chronic fatigue. Note: this is not something a doctor would use. Now this is were keyshaft and others get sensitive on me, you see cfs is a cause of chronic fatigue. But it doesn't not have to exist in people who suffer from chronic fatigue, you feel me?
Now ironically I think they have speculated at one time or another every one of those causes or symptoms. But if I go with what I have seen and what he has said about the issue himself. I would say he falls in the psychological stress category. Here is why I say that. What I seen, cs on a bike that he was incapable of competing for the win and caused him to very upset and frustrated. I seen him flip people off on track, stop in front of someone elses pit box to take a piss on them. What I heard him say, I heard him say week after week that he feels good all week long and come race time his fatigue comes back. I could go on about how he liked cold weather races, rain, and making bad tire choices but I think you get the picture.

I in no way mean to belittle what you are going through keesh, I just don't feel he is dealing with something a serious as what you seem to be. I am sure you will call me a not funny young little ...-clown and I will call you something like old good for nothing turd burglar, sometime in the future. But I wish you the best of luck with what you are going through. I'll take a nap for you later.(just a joke)

In the mildest terms possible - I'm saying; read my posts more carefully. I never said that. It would be like saying the word cancer is the cause of cancer. I've repeatedly said that CFS is an oddball collection of symptoms that no doctor has been able to correlate to one single cause. That's why I've referred to CFS numerous times as being "mysterious".

It's like Irritable Bowel Syndrome - which any honest doctor will tell you - is not a disease at all, but rather that IBS is just a catch-all phrase that gastroenterologists use instead of saying "You have - I don't know what the .... it is.". Same is true for CFS or Epstein Barr etc.

In any event - I'm okay these days. What got me started and feeling all Bill Clinton-I-feel-yer-pain and all was seeing Stoner looking so ....... miserable, exhausted to the point where he could hardly stand up and obviously shattered at the knowledge that his bid for the championship was down the toilet and hearing people spout nonsense about it all being a ploy and that it was some cheap, exaggerated showbiz ........ to cover up some imagined inadequacy of Stoner's. The idea of kicking a man when he's down riles me - especially when it's a guy who has provided so much great racing, not to mention all the really interesting controversy that came out of his championship year that helped make the forum a much more lively place. ... Okay - off the soap box.

 

[michaelm]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Nov 3 2009, 08:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In any event - I'm okay these days. What got me started and feeling all Bill Clinton-I-feel-yer-pain and all was seeing Stoner looking so ....... miserable, exhausted to the point where he could hardly stand up and obviously shattered at the knowledge that his bid for the championship was down the toilet and hearing people spout nonsense about it all being a ploy and that it was ll some cheap, exaggerated showbiz ........ to cover up some imagined inadequacy of Stoner's. The idea of kicking a man when he's down riles me - especially when it's a guy who has provided so much great racing, not to mention all the really interesting controversy that came out of his championship year that helped make the forum a much more lively place. ... Okay - off the soap box.

This is basically what annoyed me as well, and (for me as a fan) on top of that a need by some people to believe that valentino rossi had caused this in stoner which somehow makes valentino even greater, and as a corollary was another reason apart from his apparently unfair bike why stoner's championship did not really count.

 

[michaelm]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Nov 3 2009, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What I seen, cs on a bike that he was incapable of competing for the win and caused him to very upset and frustrated.
He in fact at the time maintained the opposite to this, that the bike did give him the capability to win but his physical condition did not allow it, and his performance since his return would suggest he was telling the truth, even if valentino did not necessarily go all out in the last 2 races.

 

[Mick D]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Nov 4 2009, 03:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In the mildest terms possible - I'm saying; read my posts more carefully. I never said that. It would be like saying the word cancer is the cause of cancer. I've repeatedly said that CFS is an oddball collection of symptoms that no doctor has been able to correlate to one single cause. That's why I've referred to CFS numerous times as being "mysterious".

Kesh... I think it was you who misread Dub's post - CFS was listed as a cause of chronic fatigue in his sports trainer's guide... which he then quoted from. He did not say that you had said that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Nov 3 2009, 10:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Chronic Fatigue

A certain degree of fatigue is normal in an athlete training hard for their sport or event. However, excessive and persistent fatigue and feelings of legarthy with a reduced sporting performance, often indicate a more serious problem.

There are many possible causes of chronic fatigue and in order to narrow down the possibilities the coach or sports medicine practitioner must ask the right questions:

Is there a constant feeling of fatigue, or does this occur before or after training/competition, at a particular venue (may suggest an allergy) or in warm weather (possible dehydration)
Does the patient fall asleep during the day?
How long has this tiredness been present? (try to establish if it first occurred after a competition, trip abroad or illness etc)
Are there any associated symptoms? (sore throat or a cold may indicate upper respiratory tract infection)
Are there any respiratory symptoms (such as a post-exercise cough or chest tightness) which may indicate exercise induced asthma or lower respiratory tract infection?
Causes of fatigue
As already mentioned there are endless causes of persistent fatigue. Some of the most common are listed here:

Overtraining syndrome
Viral illness
Inadequate diet low in carbohydrate or protein intake
Depletion of iron stores (Anaemia)
Chronic fatigue syndrome
Other conditions to look out for:

Dehydration
Exercise-induced asthma
Allergies
Jet lag
Psychological stress
Medication
Hypothyroidism
Diabetes
Pregnancy
Eating disorders
Infections
Neuromuscular disorders
If the answer to the problem is not immediately apparent, as it is not with so many of these cases, investigations should be undertaken to get to the bottom of the problem...

From my sports training guide as how to diagnose chronic fatigue.

 

[MdubSTYLIE]

Yes what mick said. I was trying to say not everyone who suffers from chronic fatigue has chronic fatigue syndrome. It can be cause by one or more of the things on the list. And having cfs is the worst on the list, because as you say there is no real cure or known cause. But that doesn't relate to all cases. Some cases may be due to psychological stress, caused by racing let say. Now lets add to that jet lag, a bad diet, over training, and dehydration. Well my friend you will have one bad case of chronic fatigue, but not necessarily cfs. All four of those things are easy to deal with, know the psychological stress, he is just going to have to learn to deal with.

 

[Bunyip]

Whatever the exact cause or nature of Caseys fatigue, it seems that people are coming around to the fact that it was-
1) Real- Casey could not compete with the degree of weakness/illness that he had.
2) His break was not only justified but did ,in fact, enable him to recover.
3) As Casey said himself, he was probably a danger to those around him due to extreme tiredness/ weakness, and was better off being off-track away from other riders.

Mud seems to be debating the psychological component and there it does become tricky. I don,t believe Casey has ever been "Psyched out" by Rossi as his many duels with VR would seem to support. VRs "pressure from behind" tactic had a zero success rate. Maybe Caseys desire for perfection does put too much pressure on himself, and that self-imposed pressure coupled with underlying viral infections (latent and current active) led to his CFS. If this is the case ,then can you criticise Casey for it.? Some of you will, but then does the flawless personality exist. Even the greatest of champions can succumb to pressure at certain times. Witness Rossi at Valencia 2006.
The only people I have heard of that never succumb to weaknesses involving emotion, are psychopaths, and I,m sure none of you would want a psychopath as world champion!
Casey has his faults ,but I believe him to be honest about his health. And he adds significantly to the spectacle of motorcycle racing. We should all be grateful that he is there with Rossi and Lorenzo.

Must almost be race weekend.............can we stop now..........?

 

[inam22]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Nov 4 2009, 09:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whatever the exact cause or nature of Caseys fatigue, it seems that people are coming around to the fact that it was-
1) Real- Casey could not compete with the degree of weakness/illness that he had.
2) His break was not only justified but did ,in fact, enable him to recover.
3) As Casey said himself, he was probably a danger to those around him due to extreme tiredness/ weakness, and was better off being off-track away from other riders.

Mud seems to be debating the psychological component and there it does become tricky. I don,t believe Casey has ever been "Psyched out" by Rossi as his many duels with VR would seem to support. VRs "pressure from behind" tactic had a zero success rate. Maybe Caseys desire for perfection does put too much pressure on himself, and that self-imposed pressure coupled with underlying viral infections (latent and current active) led to his CFS. If this is the case ,then can you criticise Casey for it.? Some of you will, but then does the flawless personality exist. Even the greatest of champions can succumb to pressure at certain times. Witness Rossi at Valencia 2006.
The only people I have heard of that never succumb to weaknesses involving emotion, are psychopaths, and I,m sure none of you would want a psychopath as world champion!
Casey has his faults ,but I believe him to be honest about his health. And he adds significantly to the spectacle of motorcycle racing. We should all be grateful that he is there with Rossi and Lorenzo.

Must almost be race weekend.............can we stop now..........?

Brno and Misano comes to mind last season when chamionship fight was on between VR and CS.

 

[Talpa]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Nov 3 2009, 03:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Score:

People with a brain: 10,000X +10000000000000000000000000000000000000000X

Talpa:<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100% 0

(I think somebody should give up).

-sorry guys, I want to join the fun but I'm just too busy today, but really, do we need to add anymore?

EDIT: Zeros, they only matter when you're not one.
Why is it only you that comes to these conclusions? Oh .... I keep forgetting, your POV

Heres one for you
Jumkie: -(thats a minus for the simpler amongst us) 10,000+ 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000000000X

See you have to be involved to be relevant, hence your score is somewhat negative........

, funny how Rossi Detractors seem to like to create some sort ridiculous bias based score, even though the stats are insurmountably stacked against them without his supporters even having to point them out, though we still do, you mentioned people with brains above, brains yes, but of course we are all reflecting our POV are we not?
Just idiots writing .... on a website wasting time, kinda like I am now bothering with another one of your dumb-... posts, Its a sorry sign for humans in general, sore losers, it really is..........

 

[Bunyip]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Nov 4 2009, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Brno and Misano comes to mind last season when chamionship fight was on between VR and CS.

I believe Caseys fractured Scaphoid was a factor in those crashes, but then I must be biased.

 

[Bunyip]

Just following up................ if I remember rightly Casey crashed in 2 races where he had built up reasonably large gaps. Rossi,s "pressure from behind" tactic involves following closely and actively applying pressure by showing a wheel every now and then and effectively saying " here I am, I can pass you anytime soon". I have never said that Casey does not succumb to pressure of any sort.

 

[Mick D]

Though I love Casey when he's racin' 'cause he's fookin' fast and a great asset to the MotoGP paddock, here is what those of us who aren't coming around beleive...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Nov 5 2009, 04:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Edited from above post
1) Real- Casey believed he could not compete with the degree of weakness/illness that he had.
2) His break was only justified because he believed it enabled him to recover.
3) Because Casey believed it himself, he was probably a danger to those around him due to extreme tiredness/ weakness, and was better off being off-track away from other riders.
Lots of theories... no real answers... we shall agree to disagree until Casey retires and someone writes a biography... ahhh ....., we'll probably never know!!

 

[michaelm]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bunyip @ Nov 4 2009, 10:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Just following up................ if I remember rightly Casey crashed in 2 races where he had built up reasonably large gaps. Rossi,s "pressure from behind" tactic involves following closely and actively applying pressure by showing a wheel every now and then and effectively saying " here I am, I can pass you anytime soon". I have never said that Casey does not succumb to pressure of any sort.
I think it is hard to dismiss pressure as an element in casey putting the bike down at laguna seca, brno and misano in 2008; as I recall the scaphoid problem only became apparent after brno and may have been re-injured in the fall there, and he crashed early in the misano race when for the rest of the season his claim was that the scaphoid affected him later in races particularly on tracks where the nature of the corners put strain on the wrist concerned.

The laguna seca error was a simple one at low speed and probably due to inattention rather than intimidation, and arguably a less significant riding error than rossi's corkscrew excursion, brilliantly though rossi did to keep the bike upright during that episode. I think in the next 2 races he was in win it or bin it mode given the points situation and the unlikelihood of anyone else taking points from valentino and pushed too hard early in the races. I will concede that after laguna seca he may have seen his best bet tactically as not to engage in a dogfight with valentino, doubtless influenced by valentino having again demonstrated his great ability in a dogfight but also by the characteristics of the ducati which appeared at that time anyway to be better suited to front-running than dogfighting. From his statements at that time he also may have felt that rossi had fewer restrictions on the manouevres available to him in such a dogfight as well

; he has possibly reconsidered his stance since then given the comments of schwantz, mladin and others.

I think the rest of it is nonsense. As gsfan said I don't see how anyone watching stoner in the rain at sepang last race can doubt his bravery, and his win at mugello with the championship in play immediately before his supposed mental collapse was an even more dramatic demonstration of this, given that it was entirely due to him pulling 10 seconds on rossi and lorenzo by pushing many seconds a lap harder than they were prepared to on new slicks with the track still slippery.

There is no doubt he is or was tightly wound, and puts pressure on himself probably to his detriment.

 

[Bunyip]

[quote name='michaelm' date='Nov 5 2009, 03:43 AM' post='217307']

"I think the rest of it is nonsense."



The rest of what?

 

[michaelm]

[quote name='Bunyip' date='Nov 5 2009, 03:42 AM'
The rest of what?
[/quote]
I meant the rest of the manifold posturing on the internet in particular, more marked elsewhere than here, concerning stoner having been intimidated/broken by rossi, rather than the rest of your post

.

Valentino may have beaten stoner for the last 2 world championships because he is better than him, but not imo because casey is afraid of him.

 

[Bunyip]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Nov 5 2009, 05:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>[quote name='Bunyip' date='Nov 5 2009, 03:42 AM'
The rest of what?

I meant the rest of the manifold posturing on the internet in particular, more marked elsewhere than here, concerning stoner having been intimidated/broken by rossi, rather than the rest of your post

.

Valentino may have beaten stoner for the last 2 world championships because he is better than him, but not imo because casey is afraid of him.

Ok.
You had me worried for a minute, as we are usually on the same page. And yes, Rossi won the last 2 years because he was the best ( skills plus body condition) then. But now and next year??

 

[MdubSTYLIE]

No where have I ever said that rossi was the cause of cs's psych issues. He caused them on his own. Not by intimidation of the great one. But by his inability to be as competitive as he wanted to. From catalunya to donny it was especially noticeable. His interviews were always the same story, the bike set-up was wrong and then a rain dance would follow. Thats were I think the psychological pressure came from.

 

[Rising Sun]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Nov 5 2009, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>From catalunya to donny it was especially noticeable. His interviews were always the same story, the bike set-up was wrong and then a rain dance would follow. Thats were I think the psychological pressure came from.
You really won't let this go, will you?

Here are some quotes to consider, Mflubs:

"I'm sorry for the team because they've done a great job to give me a bike capable of winning races at every circuit we've been to lately, even though for one reason or another I haven't been able to get the best out of it."

Stoner, after Donington.

"I want to thank the team for giving me a great bike and also Doctor Claudio Macchiagodena and our physiotherapist Freddie (Dente) for all their help. Now we'll focus on trying to find out the root of the problem because racing in this condition is not much fun."

Stoner, after Laugna Seca.

"I've been feeling fine all week but started to feel run down again on Friday and I've just got worse as the weekend has gone on. I've taken every kind of supplement and vitamin tablet you can think of but nothing seems to have worked, so it is obviously something we need to have looked at closer because I can't keep going like this and it is costing us points. Thankfully I had a fantastic bike underneath me again today and I owe the team for that."

Stoner, after Assen.

"I haven't felt in great shape all weekend - I wasn't ill but I wasn't quite myself. Then last night I couldn't sleep, I probably got a couple of hours at the most, and after just a couple of laps this morning I was destroyed. I decided to race myself, basically, and bring home as many points as I could manage but my bike was fantastic and that is why I was able to ride it to a really valuable podium."

Stoner, after Catalunya.

 

[notabikerther4useless]

Rising Sun, if there was a definition of "ownage" (or pwnage, I really don't get this stuff), I'm pretty sure you just nailed it.