Sepang Race Thread

[Austin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Nov 1 2009, 05:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Really, what is the point of bringing up the whole 800cc era, when GS and myself were clearly discussing recent times......other than to improve CS's stats with 07 included. So now Mr Stats, if we are going to go back then please bring up the past 8 years for all of the riders mentioned above and lets look at those shall we? Please do, I would love to see them all there, VR's CS's, Pedders and JL's, Throw in Loris for good measure- from 2001 up to Sepang 2009-Premier class or all. After all you are responding to a 'Who is Faster?' Post aren't you? I believe you will see VR with more than double CS's Premier class wins while VR has been on the Yamaha alone, but this doesn't auger well for your 'CS is Best' disguised POV. And you can't say its an 800 thing, as these bikes and tires have changed so much since 07, you might as well bring in the 990's and smaller classes too.
Maybe you're just trying to play on the thought that Gaz was trying to improve Stoner's stats by including 2007 but this is exactly the same. Except 990cc and feeder class stats are irrelevant to any discussion about 800cc MotoGP with the exception of fluffling a CV.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Nov 1 2009, 08:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A major illness??You make it sound like he overcame cancer or something. And to be fair it is not like he needs to be in the best shape of his life to twist the throttle and lean a bit. We are not talking about soccer or triathlons. People ride sick and injured all the time rdp managed to race half the year with a broken ankle. So quit giving credit where credit is not due.


You are right the guy that could of beat rossi was on the couch, but to say it wasn't his fault is ridicules. Whos fault was it then? It was he and the peoples around hims choice, because he was acting like a foolish little baby throwing fits and ..... He missed three races over a two month period with an illness that no one even knows what it was, that will forever make him the biggest ..... on the grid.

Let go of what could have been cs fans. You are just being sore losers. but I guess asking anything else from the stoner fans would be asking to much. God you guys are more annoying than finger nails on a chalkboard.
According to Jules Ryder, all the trainers and the MX people he's spoken to, are convinced it's a case of overtraining. Nothing more.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Nov 1 2009, 04:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Dub, in seriousness and you probably consider me one of the sore losers (I sure know of someone who does

) it happens each and every year really doesn't it when a small section of fans of vanquished riders ask the 'what if' questions.
That's a fun game to play with the career of Kenny Roberts Jr.

 

[Talpa]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Nov 2 2009, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe you're just trying to play on the thought that Gaz was trying to improve Stoner's stats by including 2007 but this is exactly the same. Except 990cc and feeder class stats are irrelevant to any discussion about 800cc MotoGP with the exception of fluffling a CV.

well actually no, twelve months is long time in motogp, and 07 is now a while back with many tech changes in between, so if we are going to go back then we go back, and I say this in reference to gazs post even with vr's record being the best there, I don't need to fluff vr's cv, it speaks for itself , however I would like to see those same stats with a few more years added, gaz fluffed the cs cv here as the 800s in 07 were a completely different machine and about as relevant for comparison as the 990's, just ask Suzuki!

 

[lad]

Hey Talpa somewhere else on this board you said something to the effect of "if cs was on a honda now he'd be running around with dovi." Now I'd just like to ask you if you'd like to retract that statement so that I may see some credence in any other statements you make? Really I can accept we all make mistakes sometimes so how about some proof it's not all about somehow proving that vr is superior (which he is in my mind anyway) and there is some semblance of reality in what you say.

 

[VHMP01]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lad @ Nov 2 2009, 06:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hey Talpa somewhere else on this board you said something to the effect of "if cs was on a honda now he'd be running around with dovi." Now I'd just like to ask you if you'd like to retract that statement so that I may see some credence in any other statements you make? Really I can accept we all make mistakes sometimes so how about some proof it's not all about somehow proving that vr is superior (which he is in my mind anyway) and there is some semblance of reality in what you say.

I think, as I said before, that Stoner would not beat Lorenzo on a Yamaha to a Championship. And I also stated that Stoner, cosidering that Honda developed the 800cc bike wirh Pedrosa in mind, would not beat Pedrosa on a Honda to a Championship either. I think that Stoner found his golden bike and style to suit at Ducati and 800cc too. I am sorry for being repetitive so much, but I see it relevant to what has been asked Talpa. Although I think Dovi is not really proving himself too (maybe next year).

Anyway, to answer the question maid to Talpa (i'll help out a bit). Dovisiozo finished 5th on JiR Team Scot Satellite Honda on his first year of MotoGP, behind the best 4, and above the likes of Hayden, Edwards, Vermeulen, Nakano, Capirossi, Toseland and Elias. This seemed to be a reason to elevate Stoner on a Honda by Gaz.

Now, Stoner finished 8th on his first go (on a Honda) at LRC Satellite Team.

 

[Keshav]

<span style="color:#0000FFQUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Nov 1 2009, 08:07 AM)
A major illness??You make it sound like he overcame cancer or something. And to be fair it is not like he needs to be in the best shape of his life to twist the throttle and lean a bit. We are not talking about soccer or triathlons. People ride sick and injured all the time rdp managed to race half the year with a broken ankle. So quit giving credit where credit is not due.


You are right the guy that could of beat rossi was on the couch, but to say it wasn't his fault is ridicules. Whos fault was it then? It was he and the peoples around hims choice, because he was acting like a foolish little baby throwing fits and ..... He missed three races over a two month period with an illness that no one even knows what it was, that will forever make him the biggest ..... on the grid.

Let go of what could have been cs fans. You are just being sore losers. but I guess asking anything else from the stoner fans would be asking to much. God you guys are more annoying than finger nails on a chalkboard.

According to Jules Ryder, all the trainers and the MX people he's spoken to, are convinced it's a case of overtraining. Nothing more.

Y'know after all the factual information that's been posted here by knowledgle people on Chronic Fatigue - it amazes me that anyone can continue to be so obtuse regarding this very serious illness. On one level it's kind of understandable. Most general practitioners tend to be ignorant about Chronic Fatigue because it's not an illness they are taught to cure in med school.

On the other hand there have been a number of other well known racers (including Bostrom and Mladin) who have suffered from this illness and a few forum members (including myself) who have been through hell with CFS.

Remember - Jules is not a doctor. And the trainers aren't doctors either. They are basically overpaid gym coaches.

Before you go poo-pooing this illness - you might want to do a little research. If you do you will find that there are millions of people who suffer from CFS and very few (certainly not myself) who have come down with it from "overtraining". There was a large article in The Times about 10 days ago on CFS and one of the top virologist researchers said she'd rather have full blown AIDs than chronic fatigue - because there's been so many billions of dollars in research for AIDs and it is now a relatively treatable disease. On the other hand, so little is known about CFS - and it's known to leave sufferers so ill that they don't get out of bed for months at at time. Moreover it's documented that many people who get it, become so discouraged by the medical community's inability to cure it - that they commit suicide. I suffered with it for years and my doctors were ....... baffled. Had every test in the book. It took years of experimenting with different therapies before I started to be able to live a relatively normal life.

So - for once and for all - get it through your heads; CFS is not some imagined disease that malingerers use as an excuse to get out work. This kind of obtuseness is not unexpected from Ol' Muddy, but I am disappointed to hear it coming from Austin.

 

[michaelm]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Nov 2 2009, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Anyway, to answer the question maid to Talpa (i'll help out a bit). Dovisiozo finished 5th on JiR Team Scot Satellite Honda on his first year of MotoGP, behind the best 4, and above the likes of Hayden, Edwards, Vermeulen, Nakano, Capirossi, Toseland and Elias. This seemed to be a reason to elevate Stoner on a Honda by Gaz.

Now, Stoner finished 8th on his first go (on a Honda) at LRC Satellite Team.
All of this is irrelevant, what you and talpa are basically arguing is that someone who has won 20 premier class races, unlike anyone else in history who has done so, is a midpack rider, which could be construed by the less broadminded as extreme prejudice. If dovisioso in the future does start to win motogp races in significant numbers then you can argue he was held back by equipment, late maturation or whatever as I among others have argued about casey but until he starts doing so I can't see that you have any argument.

Btw, whilst I don't think it is any more relevant than casey's results on the lcr honda, when pedrosa beat stoner on the factory honda 250 in 2005 dovi who also was on a factory honda finished 3rd behind casey.

I think you have a stronger case with pedrosa who is definitely not a mid-pack rider, beat stoner in the 250s, and as you say at least partly had the bike built for him; I personally think stoner would still beat him not in every race but overall on an hrc bike but will admit to it being purely a quite possibly biased opinion.
(EDIT I will concede the possibility that dovi rode michelins better than casey but assuming hrc and everyone else remain on bridgestones which admittedly as of today is only an assumption this is perhaps not very relevant either).

 

[VHMP01]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Nov 2 2009, 08:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All of this is irrelevant, what you and talpa are basically arguing is that someone who has won 20 premier class races, unlike anyone else in history who has done so, is a midpack rider, which could be construed by the less broadminded as extreme prejudice. If dovisioso in the future does start to win motogp races in significant numbers then you can argue he was held back by equipment, late maturation or whatever as I among others have argued about casey but until he starts doing so I can't see that you have any argument.

Btw, whilst I don't think it is any more relevant than casey's results on the lcr honda, when pedrosa beat stoner on the factory honda 250 in 2005 dovi who also was on a factory honda finished 3rd behind casey.

I think you have a stronger case with pedrosa who is definitely not a mid-pack rider, beat stoner in the 250s, and as you say at least partly had the bike built for him; I personally think stoner would still beat him not in every race but overall on an hrc bike but will admit to it being purely a quite possibly biased opinion.
(EDIT I will concede the possibility that dovi rode michelins better than casey but assuming hrc and everyone else remain on bridgestones which admittedly as of today is only an assumption this is perhaps not very relevant either).

No Michael, I am not stating that Stoner would get Dovisiozo's results on a Honda. I set the example because Gaz used more or less the same reasoning to elevate his results on a Satellite Honda.

I truly think Stoner still would be in the top 4 (obviously not 1st). Perhaps on a Yamaha he would beat Pedrosa to a Championship, not Lorenzo in this case. And about Stoner on a Honda, I think Pedrosa would get the best result at the end of a Season too. I also think Dovisiozo has proved to be the best of the rest so far, and not by much.

 

[MdubSTYLIE]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Nov 2 2009, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><span style="color:#0000FFQUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Nov 1 2009, 08:07 AM)
A major illness??You make it sound like he overcame cancer or something. And to be fair it is not like he needs to be in the best shape of his life to twist the throttle and lean a bit. We are not talking about soccer or triathlons. People ride sick and injured all the time rdp managed to race half the year with a broken ankle. So quit giving credit where credit is not due.


You are right the guy that could of beat rossi was on the couch, but to say it wasn't his fault is ridicules. Whos fault was it then? It was he and the peoples around hims choice, because he was acting like a foolish little baby throwing fits and ..... He missed three races over a two month period with an illness that no one even knows what it was, that will forever make him the biggest ..... on the grid.

Let go of what could have been cs fans. You are just being sore losers. but I guess asking anything else from the stoner fans would be asking to much. God you guys are more annoying than finger nails on a chalkboard.

According to Jules Ryder, all the trainers and the MX people he's spoken to, are convinced it's a case of overtraining. Nothing more.

Y'know after all the factual information that's been posted here by knowledgle people on Chronic Fatigue - it amazes me that anyone can continue to be so obtuse regarding this very serious illness. On one level it's kind of understandable. Most general practitioners tend to be ignorant about Chronic Fatigue because it's not an illness they are taught to cure in med school.

On the other hand there have been a number of other well known racers (including Bostrom and Mladin) who have suffered from this illness and a few forum members (including myself) who have been through hell with CFS.

Remember - Jules is not a doctor. And the trainers aren't doctors either. They are basically overpaid gym coaches.

Before you go poo-pooing this illness - you might want to do a little research. If you do you will find that there are millions of people who suffer from CFS and very few (certainly not myself) who have come down with it from "overtraining". There was a large article in The Times about 10 days ago on CFS and one of the top virologist researchers said she'd rather have full blown AIDs than chronic fatigue - because there's been so many billions of dollars in research for AIDs and it is now a relatively treatable disease. On the other hand, so little is known about CFS - and it's known to leave sufferers so ill that they don't get out of bed for months at at time. Moreover it's documented that many people who get it, become so discouraged by the medical community's inability to cure it - that they commit suicide. I suffered with it for years and my doctors were ....... baffled. Had every test in the book. It took years of experimenting with different therapies before I started to be able to live a relatively normal life.

So - for once and for all - get it through your heads; CFS is not some imagined disease that malingerers use as an excuse to get out work. This kind of obtuseness is not unexpected from Ol' Muddy, but I am disappointed to hear it coming from Austin.

Good post keshav.
And you summed up were are opinions on this differ. I, like a lot of doctors, are putting cfs in a category with things like some types of depression and anxiety. Or that depression and/or anxiety are the cause of cfs a lot of the time. But were I differ from the opinion of doctors is that I dont think prescription drugs are the answer to these. Thats were I get to the mental and not really sick. I think people with certain types of depression and anxiety, like what I feel cs was dealing with, the best solution is to get over it. Man up if you will, its not an overnight process but one you will notice everyday with a change out look on life and/or racing. And so far I think thats what we have seen in casey since his return, each week I seen him slowly gain in maturity back to at least where he was before this all began. But can he get farther? People tend to grow more from when ...... things happen, is this that moment in casey life?


I say all this with having dealt with depression and anxiety in the past. At the end of my teen years I had a spiral of bad things happen. Note all of my own doing. But I became very depressed. They put me on meds but those just werent right for me. Long story short, I found I had the mental capicity to get over it myself. I didnt need the help of doctors or drugs it was all in my head. And thats why I say what I say about cs.

Now I know what I dealt with was different than cfs. If you don't mind, how did it begin with you, and how did you or any other powerslider get over it? Or do you still deal with it? I understand if it is something you dont want to discuss.

 

[Jumkie]

Score:

People with a brain: 10,000X +10000000000000000000000000000000000000000X

Talpa:<span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100% 0

(I think somebody should give up).

-sorry guys, I want to join the fun but I'm just too busy today, but really, do we need to add anymore?

EDIT: Zeros, they only matter when you're not one.

 

[Austin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Nov 2 2009, 01:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well actually no, twelve months is long time in motogp, and 07 is now a while back with many tech changes in between, so if we are going to go back then we go back, and I say this in reference to gazs post even with vr's record being the best there, I don't need to fluff vr's cv, it speaks for itself , however I would like to see those same stats with a few more years added, gaz fluffed the cs cv here as the 800s in 07 were a completely different machine and about as relevant for comparison as the 990's, just ask Suzuki!
So you weren't just trying to be cute then? It's not relevant to include 2007 in a discussion of Rossi and Stoner on today's machinery but it's relevant to cite Rossi stats from when Stoner wasn't even racing against him? I can see your point about '07, I don't agree, but if you really do believe that the Ducati was leaps and bounds stronger than anything else out there then I can understand why you wouldn't want to use stats from that year. However, taking it a step further to stats pre-2006 is utterly useless. The best I'd give you would be to include 2006 but anything past is absolutely irrelevant.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Nov 2 2009, 08:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Y'know after all the factual information that's been posted here by knowledgle people on Chronic Fatigue - it amazes me that anyone can continue to be so obtuse regarding this very serious illness. On one level it's kind of understandable. Most general practitioners tend to be ignorant about Chronic Fatigue because it's not an illness they are taught to cure in med school.

On the other hand there have been a number of other well known racers (including Bostrom and Mladin) who have suffered from this illness and a few forum members (including myself) who have been through hell with CFS.

Remember - Jules is not a doctor. And the trainers aren't doctors either. They are basically overpaid gym coaches.

Before you go poo-pooing this illness - you might want to do a little research. If you do you will find that there are millions of people who suffer from CFS and very few (certainly not myself) who have come down with it from "overtraining". There was a large article in The Times about 10 days ago on CFS and one of the top virologist researchers said she'd rather have full blown AIDs than chronic fatigue - because there's been so many billions of dollars in research for AIDs and it is now a relatively treatable disease. On the other hand, so little is known about CFS - and it's known to leave sufferers so ill that they don't get out of bed for months at at time. Moreover it's documented that many people who get it, become so discouraged by the medical community's inability to cure it - that they commit suicide. I suffered with it for years and my doctors were ....... baffled. Had every test in the book. It took years of experimenting with different therapies before I started to be able to live a relatively normal life.

So - for once and for all - get it through your heads; CFS is not some imagined disease that malingerers use as an excuse to get out work. This kind of obtuseness is not unexpected from Ol' Muddy, but I am disappointed to hear it coming from Austin.
My intent was not to discredit what Stoner has gone through. I shouldn't have said 'nothing more,' apologies for that. I was just passing on the information that Ryder has accumulated from talking to various medical and training people within the GP paddock and in motorsports in general. I have no medical background so my opinion is essentially worth nothing. But my understanding of what Ryder had gathered was that the overtraining didn't allow for Stoner to ever fully recover, essentially leaving him with exactly what you're describing in CFS. He also mentioned that it all likely started with overtraining, and ultimately causing the CFS symptoms to occur.

Sorry Kesh, didn't mean to discredit. Just passing along what I had heard.

 

[SuperShinya56]

Well... seeing how the championship Stoner won in was on the first years introduction of 800cc, it could be looked at as a fluke championship if you will. It was the first year for all teams, and with very few data to go on, it was either hit or miss.... and fortunately Ducati just had the 'right' package. You can say that the year Stoner won his championship in was more of a testing season than anything if you really look at it, with the new formula and all. Not taking anything away from Casey at all as I do think he is an exceptional rider, but still it makes one wonder. The following season everyone gathered enough data in this 'testing' season in 07' to get things in order, and thus Stoner was NOT able to defend his championship.... so what does that mean??

 

[Keshav]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Nov 2 2009, 12:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Good post keshav.
And you summed up were are opinions on this differ. I, like a lot of doctors, are putting cfs in a category with things like some types of depression and anxiety. Or that depression and/or anxiety are the cause of cfs a lot of the time. But were I differ from the opinion of doctors is that I dont think prescription drugs are the answer to these. Thats were I get to the mental and not really sick. I think people with certain types of depression and anxiety, like what I feel cs was dealing with, the best solution is to get over it. Man up if you will, its not an overnight process but one you will notice everyday with a change out look on life and/or racing. And so far I think thats what we have seen in casey since his return, each week I seen him slowly gain in maturity back to at least where he was before this all began. But can he get farther? People tend to grow more from when ...... things happen, is this that moment in casey life?


I say all this with having dealt with depression and anxiety in the past. At the end of my teen years I had a spiral of bad things happen. Note all of my own doing. But I became very depressed. They put me on meds but those just werent right for me. Long story short, I found I had the mental capicity to get over it myself. I didnt need the help of doctors or drugs it was all in my head. And thats why I say what I say about cs.

Now I know what I dealt with was different than cfs. If you don't mind, how did it begin with you, and how did you or any other powerslider get over it? Or do you still deal with it? I understand if it is something you dont want to discuss.

I have given attention to doctors who want to sweep CFS under the carpet of anxiety or depression - but there are three or four forums that are peopled by folks looking for answers and or cures for CFS and as yet - I haven't run across anyone who was cured by antidepressants or anti-anxiety meds.

Naturally - anxiety, depression or stress will exacerbate CFS - because (it's common knowledge) that they all depress the immune system and while the doctors who specialize in this malady may differ in their approaches to a cure - they all agree that the main component of CFS is viral in nature.

I started getting CFS in my late 20s when my life was overall pretty stress free. I had a good job in the film industry, a great girlfriend, a cheap apartment (in NYC no less) and the financial freedom to travel all over the country to go club racing racing (F2, middle-weight superbike and endurance racing). I've never been able to pinpoint any prior illness or emotional trauma that would account for onset of CFS.

I don't doubt that emotional stuff is a big factor. But I have known lots of folks who were treated for CFS using straight-ahead, non-touchy-feely, non-new-age medical modes. I tried everything over the years. I was desperate. In the end I am still unsure what really worked. I just have become smarter about not doing things that will bring back more episodes. Easy on junk food, no booze. Antibiotics or lack of sleep .... me up. And yes over-exercising - which goes without saying. Some people really do require more emotional support to get well. Some folks do well with vitamin drips, peroxide drips, supplements and very very strict diet. Back when I could not put together more than a few contiguous weeks of reasonably good health I was in the process of applying to one of the big pharmaceutical companies - in order to get free supplies of the latest experimental anti-viral meds, one which is said to be potentially very dangerous and just before the trials were about to begin, I started to experience months at at time of good health and well-being and I was spared what would have been like the equivalent of two years on chemo. But there are folks I've known who have been struggling with CFS for decades and don't ever seem to get significant improvement no matter what they do. I consider myself lucky.

Gotta say, even if I didn't like Stoner, I would get a little on edge when hearing folks imply that he's just wimpy or lazy or afraid of Rossi etc. etc. I put up with a lot of that over the years. I always have looked healthy regardless of how crappy I felt. In fact people meet me and think I'm like 28 years younger than my real age - so there was always that "But you look so healthy" thing, implying that my illness was strictly psychosomatic, that used to drive me nuts. Trust me CFS is no joke.

 

[Bunyip]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Nov 2 2009, 02:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'><span style="color:#0000FFQUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Nov 1 2009, 08:07 AM)
A major illness??You make it sound like he overcame cancer or something. And to be fair it is not like he needs to be in the best shape of his life to twist the throttle and lean a bit. We are not talking about soccer or triathlons. People ride sick and injured all the time rdp managed to race half the year with a broken ankle. So quit giving credit where credit is not due.


You are right the guy that could of beat rossi was on the couch, but to say it wasn't his fault is ridicules. Whos fault was it then? It was he and the peoples around hims choice, because he was acting like a foolish little baby throwing fits and ..... He missed three races over a two month period with an illness that no one even knows what it was, that will forever make him the biggest ..... on the grid.

Let go of what could have been cs fans. You are just being sore losers. but I guess asking anything else from the stoner fans would be asking to much. God you guys are more annoying than finger nails on a chalkboard.

According to Jules Ryder, all the trainers and the MX people he's spoken to, are convinced it's a case of overtraining. Nothing more.

Y'know after all the factual information that's been posted here by knowledgle people on Chronic Fatigue - it amazes me that anyone can continue to be so obtuse regarding this very serious illness. On one level it's kind of understandable. Most general practitioners tend to be ignorant about Chronic Fatigue because it's not an illness they are taught to cure in med school.

On the other hand there have been a number of other well known racers (including Bostrom and Mladin) who have suffered from this illness and a few forum members (including myself) who have been through hell with CFS.

Remember - Jules is not a doctor. And the trainers aren't doctors either. They are basically overpaid gym coaches.

Before you go poo-pooing this illness - you might want to do a little research. If you do you will find that there are millions of people who suffer from CFS and very few (certainly not myself) who have come down with it from "overtraining". There was a large article in The Times about 10 days ago on CFS and one of the top virologist researchers said she'd rather have full blown AIDs than chronic fatigue - because there's been so many billions of dollars in research for AIDs and it is now a relatively treatable disease. On the other hand, so little is known about CFS - and it's known to leave sufferers so ill that they don't get out of bed for months at at time. Moreover it's documented that many people who get it, become so discouraged by the medical community's inability to cure it - that they commit suicide. I suffered with it for years and my doctors were ....... baffled. Had every test in the book. It took years of experimenting with different therapies before I started to be able to live a relatively normal life.

So - for once and for all - get it through your heads; CFS is not some imagined disease that malingerers use as an excuse to get out work. This kind of obtuseness is not unexpected from Ol' Muddy, but I am disappointed to hear it coming from Austin.


Excellent post Keshav

As you say stress and depression can trigger or .exacerbate CFS , but they are not the same. As I have mentioned in another thread, new research suggests a Retroviral cause or involvement in the disease process. One of many internet articles:

http://www.cfids.org/temp/whittemore-press-release-10-09.pdf

I had periods of fatigue for up to 4 months, so in many respects did not have the classical chronic definition of the disease, but still is I believe part of the same syndrome. Mudone, you seem to almost comprehend it, but you don,t want to extend the possibility of CFS to CS. He has had, like me , a relatively shorter version of the syndrome, although Casey believes that he has not been fully right for more of this racing year than he had originally thought.

Hence my premise has been that if Casey is to be believed that his CFS and scaphoid fracture have been seriously impinging on his performance, then he really is the fastest rider today. If, as many of you seem to, believe that Casey has been exaggerating his health issues, then I suppose you could argue that he is not the fastest rider. I suppose it is a matter of opinion. As Casey seems to be a straight shooter, I believe him. But then it may be Aussie bias, and,having a medical background , it all makes sense to me.

The truth will be revealed one day.

Mud.......just because I drift into colourful monologues.......doesn,t mean I,m a nutter....just semi-provocative antidotes to excessive Casey bashing.

 

[michaelm]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Nov 2 2009, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Good post keshav.
And you summed up were are opinions on this differ. I, like a lot of doctors, are putting cfs in a category with things like some types of depression and anxiety. Or that depression and/or anxiety are the cause of cfs a lot of the time. But were I differ from the opinion of doctors is that I dont think prescription drugs are the answer to these. Thats were I get to the mental and not really sick. I think people with certain types of depression and anxiety, like what I feel cs was dealing with, the best solution is to get over it. Man up if you will, its not an overnight process but one you will notice everyday with a change out look on life and/or racing. And so far I think thats what we have seen in casey since his return, each week I seen him slowly gain in maturity back to at least where he was before this all began. But can he get farther? People tend to grow more from when ...... things happen, is this that moment in casey life?
You guys just won't give up will you?.You are correct that whilst it is exceedingly obvious that there are post-viral syndromes which can be extremely debilitating there is scepticism about the chronic fatigue syndrome in general and in particular its application to the general community given that there haven't been and still may not be any objective investigations to definitely confirm or exclude the diagnosis. I don't know whether the sceptics are correct, but those on here like keshav who have obviously had significant illnesses could perhaps point to initial scepticism by medical experts of the time about such things as the microbial theory of infection

.

The problem with this in regard to casey though is that as far as I am aware no-one from the stoner or ducati camps or anyone else official has said he has or has had the chronic fatigue syndrome, one of the things which gives the whole affair the ring of truth to me since it would have been easy to say he did have it. If it is postulated he did have cfs it obviously has not been very chronic in his case

. As well as this, despite widespread diagnosis by internet experts, true psychosomatic illness is rather uncommon and a diagnosis fraught with danger for actual doctors, but it is true as you say that response to illness is varied and one of the problems with cfs was the view that making that diagnosis entrenched some people in illness behaviour.

However, what has been said is that possibly partly due to an electrolyte disturbance casey was becoming hypotensive and excessively fatigued at the end of races, which whilst not glamorous is entirely consistent with what was occurring. The hypotension with exercise part would be easy to demonstrate, and it certainly would appear likely he has been investigated along these lines, given the involvement of an endocrinologist for instance possibly to exclude adrenal insufficiency among other things. Psychosomatic hypotension is not to my knowledge a widely recognised entity, unless you are postulating that he was deliberately dehydrating himself prior to the races to have an excuse to not win. In this vein one internet farrago which would now seem fairly definitely to have been disproved is that his need for excuses was consequent on he and the ducati not being fast enough to compete; oddly like most things he says whether or not phrased in a diplomatic fashion there would now appear to be quite a deal of evidence for his contention that the bike was always fast enough.

I actually agree that this episode may have matured him as both a rider and a person, but in my experience (of life not medicine) people not being completely mature at age 22 is not all that rare.

 

[SuperShinya56]

Can we all just agree that Casey Stoner suffers from 'corkscrewitus' and move on from this??

 

[VHMP01]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Nov 2 2009, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Can we all just agree that Casey Stoner suffers from 'corkscrewitus' and move on from this??

I may think not… There still a billion and one explanations putting the parts together, on and on. Screweditis you say? (Just joking of course)

.

 

[michaelm]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Nov 3 2009, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Can we all just agree that Casey Stoner suffers from 'corkscrewitus' and move on from this??
There is some evidence for acute corkscrewitis in that stoner crashed in the lead in the following 2 races, although it could be argued (and was by me at least) that the pressure from the championship situation was a major contributor . Chronic corkscrewitis would seem to be excluded by 6 subsequent wins against rossi, 2 this year whilst the championship was in play. Intermittent or chronic relapsing corkscrewitis is arguably still possible

.

 

[Keshav]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Nov 2 2009, 07:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You guys just won't give up will you?.You are correct that whilst it is exceedingly obvious that there are post-viral syndromes which can be extremely debilitating there is scepticism about the chronic fatigue syndrome in general and in particular its application to the general community given that there haven't been and still may not be any objective investigations to definitely confirm or exclude the diagnosis. I don't know whether the sceptics are correct, but those on here like keshav who have obviously had significant illnesses could perhaps point to initial scepticism by medical experts of the time about such things as the microbial theory of infection

.

The problem with this in regard to casey though is that as far as I am aware no-one from the stoner or ducati camps or anyone else official has said he has or has had the chronic fatigue syndrome, one of the things which gives the whole affair the ring of truth to me since it would have been easy to say he did have it. If it is postulated he did have cfs it obviously has not been very chronic in his case

. As well as this, despite widespread diagnosis by internet experts, true psychosomatic illness is rather uncommon and a diagnosis fraught with danger for actual doctors, but it is true as you say that response to illness is varied and one of the problems with cfs was the view that making that diagnosis entrenched some people in illness behaviour.

However, what has been said is that possibly partly due to an electrolyte disturbance casey was becoming hypotensive and excessively fatigued at the end of races, which whilst not glamorous is entirely consistent with what was occurring. The hypotension with exercise part would be easy to demonstrate, and it certainly would appear likely he has been investigated along these lines, given the involvement of an endocrinologist for instance possibly to exclude adrenal insufficiency among other things. Psychosomatic hypotension is not to my knowledge a widely recognised entity, unless you are postulating that he was deliberately dehydrating himself prior to the races to have an excuse to not win. In this vein one internet farrago which would now seem fairly definitely to have been disproved is that his need for excuses was consequent on he and the ducati not being fast enough to compete; oddly like most things he says whether or not phrased in a diplomatic fashion there would now appear to be quite a deal of evidence for his contention that the bike was always fast enough.

I actually agree that this episode may have matured him as both a rider and a person, but in my experience (of life not medicine) people not being completely mature at age 22 is not all that rare.

My post was basically a plea for reason and awareness - because - it had been heavily speculated that CFS was the problem - and a lot of people were making light of this illness and brushing it off as strictly psycho-somatic (which BTW does not mean "imagined" but rather refers to real illness triggered by emotional stress or trauma). As yet I haven't read an official statement from the Stoner camp that ever claimed a definitive diagnosis of Stoner's illness.

Hypotension and/or dehydration can be readily diagnosed by any first-year medical student - so if it had been simply that - I reckon they could have remedied that 1-2-3, no problem. So that seems unlikely. You hardly ever see pro-racers when they're not walking around sucking on some kind of beverage. It may not be what's on the label - but they are hydrating all the time.

Psycho-somatic hypertension? Interesting... that's one I've not heard of before. My personal experience is that I almost never feel thirsty and will get easily dehydrated if I don't mechanically force myself to drink fluids all the time whether or not I'm thirsty. I used to do endurance races and learned this the hard way.

 

[michaelm]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Nov 3 2009, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My post was basically a plea for reason and awareness - because - it had been heavily speculated that CFS was the problem - and a lot of people were making light of this illness and brushing it off as strictly psycho-somatic (which BTW does not mean "imagined" but rather refers to real illness triggered by emotional stress or trauma). As yet I haven't read an official statement from the Stoner camp that ever claimed a definitive diagnosis of Stoner's illness.

Hypotension and/or dehydration can be readily diagnosed by any first-year medical student - so if it had been simply that - I reckon they could have remedied that 1-2-3, no problem. So that seems unlikely. You hardly ever see pro-racers when they're not walking around sucking on some kind of beverage. It may not be what's on the label - but they are hydrating all the time.

Psycho-somatic hypertension? Interesting... that's one I've not heard of before. My personal experience is that I almost never feel thirsty and will get easily dehydrated if I don't mechanically force myself to drink fluids all the time whether or not I'm thirsty. I used to do endurance races and learned this the hard way.
I was specifically trying not to belittle what you and others have suffered, and obviously didn't express myself very well. My main point was that saying stoner has had chronic fatigue syndrome is yet more speculation, whether or not the step from that is to then say that cfs is not a serious illness (which doubtless it couldn't be if casey did have it

). As you discovered, and from my not very recent knowledge it has at least in the past usually been a diagnosis of exclusion, and in casey's case whatever was wrong with him has proved not to be very chronic. If (and I say if) he had some moderately prolonged viral illness or shortish post viral syndrome continuing strenuous exercise is not likely to promote recovery as you found when you were crook.

I was joking about psychosomatic hypotension, my point being that hypotension is something objective, and it is one thing that it has been stated they found wrong with him. Whether or not it is an illness per se or whatever the cause it could certainly present difficulties with riding a bike at 300 kmh.

 

[Keshav]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Nov 3 2009, 09:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was specifically trying not to belittle what you and others have suffered, and obviously didn't express myself very well. My main point was that saying stoner has had chronic fatigue syndrome is yet more speculation, whether or not the step from that is to then say that cfs is not a serious illness (which doubtless it couldn't be if casey did have it

). As you discovered, and from my not very recent knowledge it has at least in the past usually been a diagnosis of exclusion, and in casey's case whatever was wrong with him has proved not to be very chronic. If (and I say if) he had some moderately prolonged viral illness or shortish post viral syndrome continuing strenuous exercise is not likely to promote recovery as you found when you were crook.

I was joking about psychosomatic hypotension, my point being that hypotension is something objective, and it is one thing that it has been stated they found wrong with him. Whether or not it is an illness per se or whatever the cause it could certainly present difficulties with riding a bike at 300 kmh.

For sure - I never mistook anything you said for belittling. Defining the parameters of what constitutes "Chronic" fatigue has been an on-going mission within the medical community. Folks have been known (obviously) to be cured or at least get to a place where they can live a reasonably robust life after years of suffering - so the word chronic does not define the disease in such a literal fashion. Essentially - chronic (in this case) refers to unnatural fatigue - that lasts for a prolonged period of time, that seems to defy diagnosis; which would fit the description of what Stoner appears to have suffered. This was the call with similar sets of symptoms suffered by Bostrom and Mladin - both of whom recovered. I don't think we need to agonize on how "chronic" is chronic. I don't think as either of us are needlessly pedantic people.

For the record; I wouldn't totally rule out the possibility that Stoner's episode was psycho-somatically triggered. But in the end, only he will be able to say so one way or the other.
I doubt whether any of us will ever know for sure.