Sachsenring race!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 21 2009, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>One also can argue that to consistently make the machine produce higher corner speed requires greater effort from the rider, in comparison to twisting the throttle on the straight. So in order to gain that advantage VR had to push himself-machine-tyres (and the latter gave out first in 07) harder than Stoner.

You are assuming that Rossi did not set up his bike for superior cornering. Because if he did, which is what I'm contending, then it was "easier" for him to achieve greater cornering, whereas, Casey had to struggle to keep up.


One could conversely argue that in order for Casey to keep up with Vale in the corners, he had to ride on the raged edge (or as you say, "greater effort from the rider", since he had compromised handling for that “easy” straight-line speed. Ya see how messy this can get my friend?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 21 2009, 05:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Every single issue that has ever been brought up for the 07 apologist, you have squarely been at the forefront: It was Stoner: tires, acceleration, electronics, aerodynamics, or conversely, it was poor Rossi's ......: tires, lack of power, poor handling, no preferential treatment in Bstone debacle, and if all else failed-bad luck, etc. etc. etc.

Let me help out, you forgot broken engines hermano, twice if I recall correctly… two blowups at least!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 21 2009, 06:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>First…
Second…
Third…
this topic has been discussed to death, but it seems it will only be understood depending on the color of the glasses one wears.

Don’t forget the Bridgestones!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 21 2009, 06:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well I don't think you will be happy with my post above.^ Hahaha.

Come on, you know me… I am ‘Happy’ amigo compadre… but I tell you, I am a bugging bugger Rossi worshipper and like a joke or two... ‘Hahaha’. All with due respect and brotherhood… Viva la Hermandad!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 21 2009, 06:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>he (Stoner) was 1.2 seconds down in qualifying at Saschenring, but essentially your point is that he is there or thereabouts in practice which is valid.

Stoner admitted to have ‘Sit out’ the last few laps and ‘to take his hat off to Rossi and Lorenzo’ for Q.

http://www.moto-live.com/motogp/en/headlin...718172622.shtml

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 21 2009, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Garry as you know that in wet conditons you do get big gaps in times but in Saschenring qualifying stoner even didn't bother to go out and post a time in last 20mins or so.

Complement above.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 21 2009, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I disagree that these Straight line advantages where only relevant to a few races early races in 07. China certainly stands out as a major reminder.

Oh really? Remind me, who won the second race of the 07 season? Oh yeah, Rossi. And this is when the "unfair advantage" that you guys speak of was at its peak! You see how quickly the argument that it was the "straight-line" speed of Casey's Ducati that was the reason for the title falls apart? Its complete BS my friend. None of the crap that anybody has ever said here to debunk the idea that Casey's bike was "better" has ever held water here. Why? Because I have refuted them all.

Explain then how, if Casey's bike was so much faster, then Rossi could win the very next race? In fact, Rossi kept up with Stoner in Qatar 07 until the final stage of the race, even until the penultimate lap! How on earth could he have done that if his bike wasn't superior in corners since as we all saw, Casey's bike would blast by on the straight? Answer: Because Rossi's bike was faster on the corners! That's the only possible way he could have stayed with Stoner until the 2nd to last lap, where he actually performed an overtake pass!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>VR 'The only way I can stop Casey is with a Gun'. Bullets travel in straight lines.....

Did Rossi really say this? Because it sounds very much like whining.

EDIT: BTW, I forgot to mention, you brought up China. I'm assuming you did because it has a monster straight. I'm assuming that one stayed in you minds eye right, as proof that Stoner's Ducati was superior. Ok, well that race was 4th in the season (follow me?) Let me spell it out, as I said, it was at the beginning of the season that this visual of Stoner blasting by stayed etched in the minds of the observers. Guess where was the next race? LaMans, do you remember something happened to Rossi? So lets just not count that one, shall we; ah but what was the very next race? Mugello. Guess who won that one? Ah Rossi. So you see, when this "unfair advantage" you guys speak of was at its peak, it did NOT translate into automatic wins. Myth: Stoner had an unfair speed advantage in 07--debunked! (Not just today, but you can look it up, I've debunked it to no end). Cheers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 22 2009, 12:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Garry as you know that in wet conditons you do get big gaps in times but in Saschenring qualifying stoner even didn't bother to go out and post a time in last 20mins or so.


Your comment was.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 21 2009, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This season so far, if all the stoner ... licking fans go back and check the times they will discover that stoner is always on pace compare to yamaha's in pratice or quilifying which clearly shows that their is nothing wrong with the bike.You can argue about other factors which might be contributing towards stoner poor performances but i don't want to go there.

But at Saschenring he was 1.2 seconds back at the end of qualifying and irrespective of whether it was wet or he sat out some time, that is a large margin and shows that neither he nore the Ducati are 'always' on the pace. I do not disagree with your sentiments nor the intent (as I read it) but ultimately the fact is that he was a long way off the pace at the end of that session.

As for it being wet I will say that I was genuinely very surprised at just how far off the pace he had been and had assumed that he decided to rest as the conditions were (in his mind) not conducive to better times. Besides which, if you remove that flier by VR the gap was around 0.6 of a second anyway which is nearer the norm for wet races.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 22 2009, 01:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your comment was.



But at Saschenring he was 1.2 seconds back at the end of qualifying and irrespective of whether it was wet or he sat out some time, that is a large margin and shows that neither he nore the Ducati are 'always' on the pace. I do not disagree with your sentiments nor the intent (as I read it) but ultimately the fact is that he was a long way off the pace at the end of that session.

As for it being wet I will say that I was genuinely very surprised at just how far off the pace he had been and had assumed that he decided to rest as the conditions were (in his mind) not conducive to better times. Besides which, if you remove that flier by VR the gap was around 0.6 of a second anyway which is nearer the norm for wet races.

Garry
Garry ok lets say he wasn't upto speed in germany but thats only one race out of 9, i would say thats not bad going.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 22 2009, 01:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh really? Remind me, who won the second race of the 07 season? Oh yeah, Rossi. And this is when the "unfair advantage" that you guys speak of was at its peak! You see how quickly the argument that it was the "straight-line" speed of Casey's Ducati that was the reason for the title falls apart? Its complete BS my friend. None of the crap that anybody has ever said here to debunk the idea that Casey's bike was "better" has ever held water here. Why? Because I have refuted them all.

Explain then how, if Casey's bike was so much faster, then Rossi could win the very next race? In fact, Rossi kept up with Stoner in Qatar 07 until the final stage of the race, even until the penultimate lap! How on earth could he have done that if his bike wasn't superior in corners since as we all saw, Casey's bike would blast by on the straight? Answer: Because Rossi's bike was faster on the corners! That's the only possible way he could have stayed with Stoner until the 2nd to last lap, where he actually performed an overtake pass!



Did Rossi really say this? Because it sounds very much like whining.

EDIT: BTW, I forgot to mention, you brought up China. I'm assuming you did because it has a monster straight. I'm assuming that one stayed in you minds eye right, as proof that Stoner's Ducati was superior. Ok, well that race was 4th in the season (follow me?) Let me spell it out, as I said, it was at the beginning of the season that this visual of Stoner blasting by stayed etched in the minds of the observers. Guess where was the next race? LaMans, do you remember something happened to Rossi? So lets just not count that one, shall we; ah but what was the very next race? Mugello. Guess who won that one? Ah Rossi. So you see, when this "unfair advantage" you guys speak of was at its peak, it did NOT translate into automatic wins. Myth: Stoner had an unfair speed advantage in 07--debunked! (Not just today, but you can look it up, I've debunked it to no end). Cheers.
Jumkie i am bit lost here mate, i don't know what are you trying to achieve with your arguments.Are you trying to say that Stoner had no advantage in tyres,TC,straight line speed etc etc what so ever in 07 and he beat Rossi on equal terms with his talent and riding abilities but then he was unable to beat rossi in 2008 with his pure talent and riding abilities why? were his talent and riding abilities reduced for some unknown reason.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 22 2009, 01:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie i am bit lost here mate, i don't know what are you trying to achieve with your arguments.Are you trying to say that Stoner had no advantage in tyres,TC,straight line speed etc etc what so ever in 07 and he beat Rossi on equal terms with his talent and riding abilities but we was unable to beat rossi in 2008 with his pure talent and riding abilities why? were his talent and riding abilities reduced for some unknown reason.
I am not sure you have re-stated jumkie's argument entirely correctly but if so it is basically the reverse of your argument and from my admittedly biased perspective your argument (ie that when stoner was beating rossi it was due to the bike and now that rossi is beating stoner it is due to superior riding skill) is open to similar criticism.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 22 2009, 03:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am not sure you have re-stated jumkie's argument entirely correctly but if so it is basically the reverse of your argument and from my admittedly biased perspective your argument (ie that when stoner was beating rossi it was due to the bike and now that rossi is beating stoner it is due to superior riding skill) is open to similar criticism.
No you didn't get my point all i am trying to say is abviously in my humble opinion Stoner definatly had few advantages in 07.This year it looks like overall yamaha got better package but not by much stoner is always there or there abouts with his times.He is just struggling in race due to unknown reason.

Hi inam, im away from a computer ATM, but will get back to u. (im actually replying on my fone, sick i know). But basically, yeah im saying there r several factors to account for 07 vs 08, & id say most of which is not some "unfair advantage" but mostly 'rider'. I will elaborate later. Its tuff texting in a response by fone buddy. Haha.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 22 2009, 03:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hi inam, im away from a computer ATM, but will get back to u. (im actually replying on my fone, sick i know). But basically, yeah im saying there r several factors to account for 07 vs 08, & id say most of which is not some "unfair advantage" but mostly 'rider'. I will elaborate later. Its tuff texting in a response by fone buddy. Haha.
No worries mate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 21 2009, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie i am bit lost here mate, i don't know what are you trying to achieve with your arguments.Are you trying to say that Stoner had no advantage in tyres,TC,straight line speed etc etc what so ever in 07 and he beat Rossi on equal terms with his talent and riding abilities but then he was unable to beat rossi in 2008 with his pure talent and riding abilities why? were his talent and riding abilities reduced for some unknown reason.

Ok Inam, here is what I'm saying, I'm basically responding to the argument that Stoner had some "unfair advantage" that resulted in a title; I'm saying no such thing happened. Any benefit from having straight-line speed was negated by compromises made to the bike in cornering. Any "advantage" that Rossi had in handling was a compromise to his straight-line speed. (You do realize that any bike on the grid can be made to have a high straight-line speed right? It just means that they would compromise other aspects, (FACT). These bikes can be made to drag race, but they would lose the race.)

The Rossi apologist has made a career out of pointing to Stoner's blasting past Rossi at the first stages of 07 and has stayed stuck on that image without proper evaluation. They have basically looked for some "unfair" reason to account for Stoner winning (or Rossi losing). The general elements of their argument surrounds: power, speed, tires, and electronics. What is absent here? Oh yeah, RIDER. This is where it gets interesting: Stoner never got the credit, but conversely, when Rossi won, it was all about the rider. That is called a double standard.

Stoner won 07 because he was the better rider. He consistently made few mistakes. He maximized the package and compromises made to suit his style. Stoner's point’s chase was aided by a few misfortunes by Rossi.

The following season was similar, Stoner was clearly and consistently the faster man (FACT). But Rossi was the more consistent rider. Rossi's points chase was aided by a few misfortunes by Stoner.

I'd say both 07/08 Stoner’s bike was fairly equal to Rossi's. The Rossi apologist won't accept this and will always claim that the 07 Ducati was better. But that's complete ........ since nobody was doing anything with the Ducati but one man, Stoner. (BTW, the other Ducati's were on Bridgestone, so that line of reasoning is also ........).

What changed in 08, Rossi got Bridgestones. Did this slow down Stoner? NO. He was consistently faster than Rossi (FACT). Stoner was not able to win the title because of mistakes, just like Rossi, the rider, the man, made mistakes in 07.

At least this is how I see it. And I enjoy refuting anybody who gives credit to Stoner's bike 07 rather than the rider. The evidence supports it was about Stoner and neither his bike nor the supposed inferiority of the Yamaha were to account for the title.

(how the hell did I get suckered into rehashing all the arguments of 07/08? ....)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Jul 21 2009, 08:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No Rog, Just my opinion of what I see. I see that the Yamaha is so far superior that it is silly to suggest that is just the talent of the two riders that is resulting in 1-2 finishes. I am not suggesting they are not talented as that would make me like the Rossi groupies that I despise so much, I am just saying that the Yamaha has a faster maximum potential. Surely you understand that concept. But just to make it easier. Does a mini have a faster or slower lap time potential than a Porche?
your knickers all twisted up.

Sorry mate I realise this is YOUR forum!
Jumkie why you never speak in defensive of Rossi then especially posts like above or all your arguments are biased as well.

ps. am i the only one that has heard that stoner could be suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome? that was reported on an australian news site, would explain a few things

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 21 2009, 11:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie why you never speak in defensive of Rossi then especially posts like above or all your arguments are biased as well.

True. Nobody is immune I guess. Its about pendulum my friend. When it swings to dig at Rossi, I come to the party swinging (BTW, Rossi has lots of defenders, he really doesn't need me, but even then I come guns ahblazing. Haha, just ask BerryMachine about his infamous list of why "Rossi was not a pure rider". I tore that ........ to pieces); and when its Stoner's turn to take the hits, like now, well I also chime in on his behave. Oh but don't mess with Hayden boy, you'll really get the wrath!

Bro, don't take this .... to heart man. Its all good. I only go postal with the likes that actually believe this .... (like you know who HINT, name starts with a B and ends with Fish); AS OPPOSE TO BANTER!

OK, Inam, I'll make you a deal. If Stoner wins the next race, I'll spend all my time supporting the Rossi Faithful and rebutting Stoner fans claims that its Rossi's bike doing all the work. DEAL? Oh, and if Hayden wins, I'll just explode!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (narstynarnst @ Jul 22 2009, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Guintoli in Bike June 2009

"I raced the Ducati last year so i've seen his data. What he does with that bike is amazing. He's unbelievably talented. (And Rossi?) I think if there was a race between him and Stoner on the same bike then stoner would easily beat him."
What up brotha?

Great quote, Guintoli is right.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (narstynarnst @ Jul 22 2009, 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Guintoli in Bike June 2009

"I raced the Ducati last year so i've seen his data. What he does with that bike is amazing. He's unbelievably talented. (And Rossi?) I think if there was a race between him and Stoner on the same bike then stoner would easily beat him."

Guintoli's mum is from Darwin?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 22 2009, 08:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What up brotha?

Great quote, Guintoli is right.

Jumkie, please tell me if I did the right or wrong thing here as a means of pre-empting any real argument.

Seeing this I immediately assumed that either Guintoli, the journalist or the gunman pointing the pistol at Guintoli had to have an Australian connection but I have been unable to find any evidence to support that theory.

So next, I looked into the possibility that when Guintoli was ko'd by Aussie Josh Brookes on a warm up that Brookes had made some level of threat and the ko was a pre-emptive strike to scare Guintoli into submission. But again, I found a big no on that as Brookes had mechanical issues (reported and agreed by team) so ruled that out.

So I figured that I would look up the Australian white pages for all people with surname of 'guintoli' and found one lone entry for 'G Guintoli in Wagin in West Australia'. Whilst I have tried to contact that person I gave up due to no answer but does anyone know whether there is a Guintoli, G within Sylvain's family?

Ok, so the white pages only lists those numbers publicly available and does not include 'silent' mobiles (cell phone) or home numbers.

And yes, this is just a small piss take.

Garry

Well I'm obviously biased but I think Rossi in his best shape is better than Stoner in his best shape. In '07 though Stoner was the best rider on the best bike. It was frustrating for Rossi to use all his talent that year to pass stoner in the turns and then get easily passed on the straight... that said Stoner was great to stay with Rossi in the most difficult track parts, he deserved that championship.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 22 2009, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What up brotha?

Great quote, Guintoli is right.
Don't mess with Rossi, or you'll really get the wrath!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>(TP70 @ Jul 21 2009, 08:10 AM)
No Rog, Just my opinion of what I see. I see that the Yamaha is so far superior that it is silly to suggest that is just the talent of the two riders that is resulting in 1-2 finishes. I am not suggesting they are not talented as that would make me like the Rossi groupies that I despise so much, I am just saying that the Yamaha has a faster maximum potential. Surely you understand that concept. But just to make it easier. Does a mini have a faster or slower lap time potential than a Porche?
your knickers all twisted up.

Sorry mate I realise this is YOUR forum!

i see i was right to question your motives

so you consider the ducati to be like a mini and the yam to be the porsche ? your bias and hatred is verging on the bizarre