Sachsenring race!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jul 21 2009, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>‘Good Riders’ ???



Correction: great riders.

Happy?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 21 2009, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Would you please stop twisting the truth.

Ah, so now you say you give Stoner props. Well, funny thing about backpedaling on a forum, all the former .... you said to cast rubbish on Stoner's riding ability for the more suitable explanation of chalking it up to TC; its all there for use to see. Not only what you suggest about his TC now, but what you formerly suggested about his tires in 07. Shall I remind you?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jun 30 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh, and by the way, those who says Stoner isn't THE one using the MOST traction control out there are ......s. Doesn't matter what stoner him self says or the pope for that matter. His bike stutter around the track like no one else. Sitting at stekkenwahl made it just ridiculously obvious.

Very interesting TONE. (Oh but now you're gonna try and say you were defending Stoner?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 1 2009, 01:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Besides, watching Stoner around the track and how he just pin the throttle wide open like no one else does kind of gave us the same impression.


I know you Babel, your subtly never gets past me! Just like in the Laguna post race thread when you suggest that a certain rider was “holding back” Rossi to imply that Rossi might have caught Peders. Haha, you didn’t even have the nerve to say it was Stoner, but I could see right through it. You’re an apologist Babel (as is J4rno around here, but I don't jump on him because he doesn't generally make the absurd declarations you make, but make no mistake, I know an apologist when I read one), and I got your number. (BTW, look at the Laguna race again, Stoner did not hold anybody back, he led Rossi for a few laps comfortably, that is until he faded, and faded quickly). But no, to you, its hard to fathom anything being Rossi’s racecraft as an explanation for anything, it always the other guy’s tires, electronics, hold him back, etc.

Everybody who thinks that yamaha has massive advantage this season must be living in cuckoo land.Its no way near like 07 where stoner use to be 0.5sec quicker from the day one till the end of the race and the advantage ducati had on straight line speed and tyres were massive.

This season so far, if all the stoner ... licking fans go back and check the times they will discover that stoner is always on pace compare to yamaha's in pratice or quilifying which clearly shows that their is nothing wrong with the bike.You can argue about other factors which might be contributing towards stoner poor performances but i don't want to go there.

I still strongly believe that in 08 Rossi won championship on inferior bike compare to ducati but lot of blind stoner fans don't want to admit that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 21 2009, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>cocoland.

Is there alot of chocolate in "cocoland"? Because if there is, I'm gonna move there. I'm tired of living in Cuckooland, there is just too many Rossi fans here.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 21 2009, 09:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Is there alot of chocolate in "cocoland"? Because if there is, I'm gonna move there. I'm tired of living in Cuckooland, there is just too many Rossi fans here.
Jumkie its not too far from sookland where you will find lot of your friends.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 21 2009, 01:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie its not too far from sookland where you will find lot of your friends.
Touche Brilliant!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 21 2009, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ah, so now you say you give Stoner props. Well, funny thing about backpedaling on a forum, all the former .... you said to cast rubbish on Stoner's riding ability for the more suitable explanation of chalking it up to TC; its all there for use to see. Not only what you suggest about his TC now, but what you formerly suggested about his tires in 07. Shall I remind you?
Backpedaling? This was written 3. July:
http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?...st&p=196916

For those who dont care to klick the link:<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>You really should know better Junky. First of all I respect Stoner just as much with or without traction control. As long as the rules are as they are I find his style both gutsy and fascinating, and the fact that non so far has been able to do the same thing says heaps about the guy.
What I actually do is calling the midless stoner fans that still think that using a lot of traction controll is some kind of defeat. And T\thereby they fight any suggestion that CS use a lot of TC.
Doesn't matter if the whole ....... depot know that he uses the TC like no one else they (and YOU for sone freak reason) are strong in their belief.
You are increasingly pathetic in your wild accusations and again, you are attacking the wrong person.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Very interesting TONE. (Oh but now you're gonna try and say you were defending Stoner?
No, it's that fine, fine, ultra thin line of difference between "Not attacking" and "defending". I guess it's a bit of a long stretch that mister black&white will ever be able to see that.
Defending I leave to the fans and the likes of you who pick a fight where ever he can find one.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I know you Babel, your subtly never gets past me! Just like in the Laguna post race thread when you suggest that a certain rider was “holding back” Rossi to imply that Rossi might have caught Peders. Haha, you didn’t even have the nerve to say it was Stoner, but I could see right through it. You’re an apologist Babel (as is J4rno around here, but I don't jump on him because he doesn't generally make the absurd declarations you make, but make no mistake, I know an apologist when I read one), and I got your number. (BTW, look at the Laguna race again, Stoner did not hold anybody back, he led Rossi for a few laps comfortably, that is until he faded, and faded quickly). But no, to you, its hard to fathom anything being Rossi’s racecraft as an explanation for anything, it always the other guy’s tires, electronics, hold him back, etc.

No you are right Jumkie, noting escapes you no matter how subtle I am. While the rest of the forum where wondering about what I was talking about you saw right through it. I'm exposed as a Rossi fan and a, let me see,... "Stoner were slower than Rossi at laguna '09" evangelist. Clever boy arn't you:ROFL:

And by being a SWSTRAL09 evangelist clearly show how mutch I really hate Stoner, right?

I bow in the dust and hail the master who got it all figured out.

Keep up the good stuff J. This gave more than a good laugh Hi hi hi

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 21 2009, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Everybody who thinks that yamaha has massive advantage this season must be living in cuckoo land.Its no way near like 07 where stoner use to be 0.5sec quicker from the day one till the end of the race and the advantage ducati had on straight line speed and tyres were massive.

This season so far, if all the stoner ... licking fans go back and check the times they will discover that stoner is always on pace compare to yamaha's in pratice or quilifying which clearly shows that their is nothing wrong with the bike.You can argue about other factors which might be contributing towards stoner poor performances but i don't want to go there.

I still strongly believe that in 08 Rossi won championship on inferior bike compare to ducati but lot of blind stoner fans don't want to admit that.
its just a return serve from 07 mate. quite funny cos they say stoner is ill bla bla bla then say the yam has an advantage bla bla bla. So which is it ?? , stoner under par or the yam is the best bike ?? they say if stoner were well he would be winning the races, they also say that the top 8 riders if on the yam would be fighting for the championship i say there's a lot of stoner fans and rossi haters clutching at straws here.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 22 2009, 03:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, the Yamaha is pretty sick. But I doubt Casey won't be up for the win in Oz.

That is unless Rossi is still sore about getting beat at Mugello and takes it out on Stoner at Phillip Island.



(I see you lurking Babel. It might interest you to know, that I was watching the super slow mo imagines on TV. I sat up very close to the screen and turned up the volume, and I realized something that everybody has been missing: the Yamahas have the most TC, this is why they have such a advantage over the entire grid! It was so clear after watching them, geez, talk about having a superior electronics package, no wonder they are 1-2 every race. You as the tire expert should have realized this a long time ago, why else would the other factory teams eat up their tires? You can thank Yamaha's TC for this.
You're right here Jum, the Yam is the superior package, and so are Fiat boys, but not the electronics department, JT and Colin no doubt have the same or similar electronics packages.
Credit given where credit due....
The best development rider in MotoGP is VR, after speaking with .... Smart (his ex-mech, us Aussies get around a bit) he said that Rossi has the best team-communications skills in the field, he knows exactly what is wrong/right with the bike and how best to tell the team about it.

The Ducati (Ferrari!! some may say) electronics package is still the best, however dialing in the now 'control' tyre to suit is no doubt a very difficult thing. Having a team that respects and truly likes you as well also helps, look at Rossi's team reaction post Catalunya win. I would hazard a guess to say that Nicky's change of fortune is making Ducati's men far happier than Casey's now seldom wins.
To get the boys to go that each mile-or tenth in this game- they need to love you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 21 2009, 02:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Backpedaling? This was written 3. July:
http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?...st&p=196916

Dude, are you healthy? Your defense for me saying you're backpedaling from your June 30th post is to quote yourself July 3rd? Hahahaha, ...., this is too easy man. Do I need to show you a calendar? Do you know what "backpedaling" is? Its when you say something (like June 30th) then I call out out on how absurd it is, then a few days later (like July 3rd) you sing a different tune--that's called BACKPEDALING! Are you ....... serious? Geez dude, make it at least challenging.

You only changed your tune after I and a few other poster (as I remember Gaz & BigAl called you out on the ........). Or did they misunderstand your meaning too? Haha, yeah, I got every angle covered Bafel, I guess it helps when I got truth on my side, eh?

Again, there is no obscurity in what you meant below: (Notice the date, June 30th)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jun 30 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh, and by the way, those who says Stoner isn't THE one using the MOST traction control out there are ......s. Doesn't matter what stoner him self says or the pope for that matter. His bike stutter around the track like no one else. Sitting at stekkenwahl made it just ridiculously obvious.

And if you thought it wasn't clear enough, you claim you can actually 'see' Casey's throttle action. Hahaha, this part still cracks me up. (Also notice the day, July 1st)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 1 2009, 01:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Besides, watching Stoner around the track and how he just pin the throttle wide open like no one else does kind of gave us the same impression.

So you quoting yourself July 3rd singing a different tune is only AFTER at least three people called you out on ........, I was one of them.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>No, it's that fine, fine, ultra thin line of difference between "Not attacking" and "defending".

Babel, there is NO way your quote above saying Casey uses the most TC "no matter what Casey or the Pope says" can be misinterpreted; we know what you meant! You were "attacking" Stoner NOT defending him. Now if you want to change your tune, well that's ok, but accept that you are in fact: 'backpedaling'.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'> No you are right Jumkie, noting escapes you no matter how subtle I am. While the rest of the forum where wondering about what I was talking about you saw right through it. I'm exposed as a Rossi fan and a, let me see,... "Stoner were slower than Rossi at laguna '09" evangelist. Clever boy arn't you:ROFL:

Thanks for accepting it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>And by being a SWSTRAL09 evangelist clearly show how mutch I really hate Stoner, right?
Dude, you have been going on for 2 years now, you have amassed plenty of record, and now your gonna try and convince me that you were not rubbishing Stoner, but just being neutral? Every single issue that has ever been brought up for the 07 apologist, you have squarely been at the forefront: It was Stoner: tires, acceleration, electronics, aerodynamics, or conversely, it was poor Rossi's ......: tires, lack of power, poor handling, no preferential treatment in Bstone debacle, and if all else failed-bad luck, etc. etc. etc.

No Babel, I'm NOT attacking the WRONG guy, I got your number man. And you know why, because you are not about the banter, you actually believe all this .........

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I bow in the dust and hail the master who got it all figured out.

Keep up the good stuff J. This gave more than a good laugh Hi hi hi

Thank you. ..

Babel, you're killing me man, but I still love you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 22 2009, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Dude, are you healthy? Your defense for me saying you're backpedaling from your June 30th post is to quote yourself July 3rd? Hahahaha, ...., this is too easy man. Do I need to show you a calendar? Do you know what "backpedaling" is? Its when you say something (like June 30th) then I call out out on how absurd it is, then a few days later (like July 3rd) you sing a different tune--that's called BACKPEDALING! Are you ....... serious? Geez dude, make it at least challenging.
I don't know if it's me that have problems with the language or you that have problems with logic.
Thing is neiter Stoner nor the Pope says he has the TC on a low setting.
However there are plenty of people here that do, and there is one that are so affraid that this could be true that he goes totaly balistic.
(There was that subtle hint again J. For your eyes only: That would be you I'm refering to)
In other words, I'm not attacking Stoner nor the Pope (why didn't someone give me .... for that)
I am attacking those here that refuse to listen to counteless commentators of the sport and for some old fasioned stupid reson thing there is somthing negative in using the bike to its full potential by the means of legal electronics. So again J, I'm NOT backpedaling, it's just you who are blinded in your fear/rage to see the simple logic.
When you hear, see and in short observe the same thing as 10 other road racing fans and we all agree, I find that as a pretty strong suggestion that there is a lot to it. When you try to make me rediculous because of that it did piss me off in the start, but nowdays it just gets hilarious. Looking at the broader picture I really don't see why I bother debating this at all.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 21 2009, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Everybody who thinks that yamaha has massive advantage this season must be living in cuckoo land.Its no way near like 07 where stoner use to be 0.5sec quicker from the day one till the end of the race and the advantage ducati had on straight line speed and tyres were massive.

Agreed, if you compare the scenarios as you say then the Fiat Yamaha does not have the level of 'advantage' of CS in 2007.

But is top speed everything as it was recognised that in 2007 there were far better handling packages, but were these sufficient to cancel out the power and the ability to get that power to ground - is arguable - not sure

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 21 2009, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This season so far, if all the stoner ... licking fans go back and check the times they will discover that stoner is always on pace compare to yamaha's in pratice or quilifying which clearly shows that their is nothing wrong with the bike.

Wrong - he was 1.2 seconds down in qualifying at Saschenring, but essentially your point is that he is there ore thereabouts in practice which is valid.

But to say that this proves that there is nothing wrong with the bike can be argued. It does indicate that in preactice settings the bike is there or thereabouts and looks to be a competitive package and as we know, a competitive practice package does not guarantee a competeitive race long package.

It is in translating the practice to race where the Ducati has been lagging, but only during the same times as Stoner's illness and given his comments the problem is him, not the bike.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 21 2009, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You can argue about other factors which might be contributing towards stoner poor performances but i don't want to go there.

No comment - good point


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (inam @ Jul 21 2009, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I still strongly believe that in 08 Rossi won championship on inferior bike compare to ducati but lot of blind stoner fans don't want to admit that.

And you are entitled to that opinion but all records will show that VR won the WC, Yamaha won the constructors and that FIAT Yamaha won the teams title. Given that these titles all won in 2008 would indicate that the bike had to be good, what factors do you base you argument on that it was inferior?

So if Yamaha was not the best bike in 2008, what bike was the best?






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 21 2009, 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't know if it's me that have problems with the language or you that have problems with logic.

...
Looking at the broader picture I really don't see why I bother debating this at all.

Ah, so what did I learn? When you implied that Casey (or the pope) where lying about TC, what you really meant to say is he should just fess up, since he is actually getting the best out of his machine, and there is no shame in that. Oh-kay

Babel, I see you want this whole thing to disappear. But please, don't quit debating me, its very fun for me (hope for you too seeing that you're always on the losing end).

Roll on Donny!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 22 2009, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wrong - he was 1.2 seconds down in qualifying at Saschenring, but essentially your point is that he is there ore thereabouts in practice which is valid.

And you are entitled to that opinion but all records will show that VR won the WC, Yamaha won the constructors and that FIAT Yamaha won the teams title. Given that these titles all won in 2008 would indicate that the bike had to be good, what factors do you base you argument on that it was inferior?

So if Yamaha was not the best bike in 2008, what bike was the best?

Garry

Garry as you know that in wet conditons you do get big gaps in times but in Saschenring qualifying stoner even didn't bother to go out and post a time in last 20mins or so.

After post race testing in Catalunya with their improve electronics package Ducati was the best bike rest of the season.
But problem started after laguna seca where Rossi manage to get in stoner head and after that round stoner didn't wanted get invovle in close racing again with rossi and pushed too much in next two rounds and crashed other wise championship could have been alot closer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 21 2009, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Correction: great riders.

Happy?

I am always happy with your posts hermano… also am a bit of a bugging bugger ‘tu sabes compadre’!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 21 2009, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Agreed, if you compare the scenarios as you say then the Fiat Yamaha does not have the level of 'advantage' of CS in 2007.
Disagree. (though I'm not sure your statement was made tongue-cheek)

First of all, this acceleration advantage did not last the entire season (fact), the other factories caught up quickly. The thing is everybody got stuck with the visual of Qatar (a place with a monster straight), the first race of the season, and thought it was the same the rest of it. But oddly enough, nobody recalls Rossi’s superior corner speed in that same race! As you some may remember, Rossi made passes on Stoner in turns, whereby negating any straight-line “advantage”. Why? Well I will discuss below, but its has to do with compromises. If the straight-line speed was such an “unfair” advantage, then how about corner speed? If another bike has superior corner speed, can we also declare its advantage is “unfair”? (Think about this for a moment).

Second, top speed, almost never translated into a win. In fact, I dedicated an entire thread to this phenomena. Almost never was Casey the top speed bike, yes even in 07. So NO; one cannot make a direct correlation of the top speed that was visible with Stoner as he passed Rossi in Qatar, and then make the leap that this was the reason he won. (Unless your evaluation is elementary, which allot have done.)

Third, the fact that one cannot SEE (as in visual) some advantage in the handling of a bike doesn’t mean its not there. Teams try to maximize the rider/package to the specific track regularly (even ask Babel, he will confirm this). That is to say, the team will decide what is best to emphasis in the plethora of elements for a specific track. Sometimes they will forgo straight-line speed for better handling at a track that has a short straight and tight corners for example. Just because people saw Stoner's bike blast past in the straight at the FIRST few rounds of 07 doesn't mean that the bike was also better in the corners. In fact, it was well documented that Rossi's Yamaha had excellent cornering speed. Why? Well perhaps Burgess/Rossi decided that their counter attack would be to emphasize excellent handling against a bike that had superior top speed. Again, there is NO perfect bike, there must be compromises made. Problem is people see a bike clock a fast speed and then determine, ah that bike has an unfair advantage. Amazing really, because the FACTS doe not support this, and still even today people believe it.

If anybody wants to look it up, you will find a thread that I showed the top speed vs. the winner. Most always, with rare exception, the top speed was NOT the winner. Oh, and the top speed was rarely Casey for that matter. Off the top of my head, I recall Peders and Barros with top speeds regularly.

this topic has been discussed to death, but it seems it will only be understood depending on the color of the glasses one wears.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Jul 21 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I am always happy with your posts hermano… also am a bit of a bugging bugger ‘tu sabes compadre’!
Well I don't think you will be happy with my post above.^ Hahaha.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 22 2009, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Second, top speed, almost never translated into a win. In fact, I dedicated an entire thread to this phenomena. Almost never was Casey the top speed bike, yes even in 07. So NO; one cannot make a direct correlation of the top speed that was visible with Stoner as he passed Rossi in Qatar, and then make the leap that this was the reason he won. (Unless your evaluation is elementary, which allot have done.)

Great point, however what most people react to is the visible Straight line passes in that race and others in 07, the instant monster gaps they created.

Yes the Yam did have better corner speed, but to argue this point you would have to look at the telemetry and see if the advantages gained in corner speed matched (or surpassed) the straight line advantage of the duck.

One also can argue that to consistently make the machine produce higher corner speed requires greater effort from the rider, in comparison to twisting the throttle on the straight. So in order to gain that advantage VR had to push himself-machine-tyres (and the latter gave out first in 07) harder than Stoner.

I disagree that these Straight line advantages where only relevant to a few races early races in 07. China certainly stands out as a major reminder. VR 'The only way I can stop Casey is with a Gun'. Bullets travel in straight lines.....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 21 2009, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Disagree. (though I'm not sure your statement was made tongue-cheek)


You didn't highlight my second paragraph which does give away how serious the 'agreed' was.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 21 2009, 11:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But is top speed everything as it was recognised that in 2007 there were far better handling packages, but were these sufficient to cancel out the power and the ability to get that power to ground - is arguable - not sure

Jumkie, I agree totally with your post and it is something I have argued, debated, discussed and eventually give up on which is that top speed is not necessarily an advantage, just as outright power is no advantage and no guarantee of success.

In one of the discussions with Babel he made a similar comment to that of Imam and my response then was that if power matters, qhy aren't these guys riding top fuel drag bikes?

IMO, power is useful, speed is useful but handling is the advantage.

If power is everything why can a 250cc bike record laptimes and subsequent consistent race laps that would have it beating a MotoGP bike that has far more horsepower?






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jul 22 2009, 12:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>One also can argue that to consistently make the machine produce higher corner speed requires greater effort from the rider, in comparison to twisting the throttle on the straight. So in order to gain that advantage VR had to push himself-machine-tyres (and the latter gave out first in 07) harder than Stoner.


On the converse, one could also argue that to make a poor handling bike corner at a reasonable speed so that it does not lose much ground to that better handling bike will take more effort from a rider than that same rider of the good handling bike.

When you then extrapolate this across a race, the rider on the good handling bike should in theory be in a better physical condition as they have had to 'fight' the machine less and both have had the straight to 'rest'.







Garry