Round 12 Silverstone: Practice, Qualifying, Race

JPSLotus said:

Can't beat the best if you don't have the bike to do it Kesh.

This is where the conundrum is.

He supposedly has a .... bike, meanwhile his teammate hasn't even come close to mouthing off the way he has. Then in spite of such a .... bike, he has won races, and done poorly in races due to his own mistakes, yet those mistakes are being blamed on the bike instead of the rider.

In what reality does that even make sense?

The Silverstone crash was supposedly the bike's fault, I think there's a good chance he simply got unsettled on the bumps in Copse and high-sided because of it. Sadly without the telemetry we're never going to be able to find out for certain.

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Pedrosa (who has won many races) has "The bike" and with all his years of experience and time at Honda, still hasn't won a championship, so let us not go down the "bike rode itself" path Bro.

Again, it's only you and Jum that are saying it's a ".... bike". It's (from reliable reports) a much more complicated bike to set-up and has been said many times to be not as forgiving as the Yamaha. That Pedrosa isn't bitching - is likely because he's just happy to have a gig after 9 years as a bridesmaid. You and Jum have to stop critisizing him for saying it's a .... bike - until such time that you provide a link to a statement or video of MM where he actually says that. If members of the press allege this - then that's not the fault of Marquez. So stop putting their assessments in his mouth.

The fact that MM crashed on a bumpy stretch in standing water while solidly in 2nd place, is hardly shameful. Lots of others crashed while they were in safer spots on the track 30-50 seconds back. It's racing in the rain. .... happens. MM never said it was a crap bike. He simply said the set-up wasn't optimal and he made a mistake. Hardly a reason to crucify him. People didn't scream and cry for Rossi's blood the way you guys do, when he had a commanding lead in Spain 2006 and threw away the championship when all he had to do was come in - was it 5th? Now that ... that was monumentally stupid. And who was villified after the incident? Nicky of course; because it was popular to hate him, same as it was with Stoner. Tall Poppy Syndrome as ever.

Kesh is deflecting from the specific debate. Its a common tactic. Its an untenable position, so one must resort to irrelevance and generalities. While we keep calling ........ on this notion that the RCV's decline or any irregularity of equipment was to blame for Marc's crashes, you can keep throwing words into a post randomly and convince yourself you have said something meaningful.

So...all riders make mistakes, how insightful. What does that have to do with the price of wheat?

Kesh, I had already offered you the opportunity to debate crash by crash which one had resulted from equipment irregularity rather than rider input, you didn't because you can't. Not that you don't posses the debate skill or understanding of logic, but simply because you have taken a position that is untenable. So you have resorted to digging and throwing up smoke screens. Stick to the specific debate.

Which crash would you like to start with?

Jumkie said:

Kesh is deflecting from the specific debate. Its a common tactic. Its an untenable position, so one must resort to irrelevance and generalities. While we keep calling ........ on this notion that the RCV's decline or any irregularity of equipment was to blame for Marc's crashes, you can keep throwing words into a post randomly and convince yourself you have said something meaningful.

So...all riders make mistakes, how insightful. What does that have to do with the price of wheat?

Kesh, I had already offered you the opportunity to debate crash by crash which one had resulted from equipment irregularity rather than rider input, you didn't because you can't. Not that you don't posses the debate skill or understanding of logic, but simply because you have taken a position that is untenable. So you have resorted to digging and throwing up smoke screens. Stick to the specific debate.

Which crash would you like to start with?

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Nonsense. Which part of what I said in my last post do you find contentious? Be specific - instead of deflecting from the conversation by making vague blanket statements about my debating style.

Keshav said:

Nonsense. Which part of what I said in my last post do you find contentious? Be specific - instead of deflecting from the conversation by making vague blanket statements about my debating style.

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Which crash would you like to debate had anything to do with an irregularity of Marc's motorcycle?

Keshav said:

Lets be even more real. Everyone is prone to mistakes. Everyone crashes from time-to-time. Vale and Jorge crash in practice all the time and they're far more experienced than MM. Marquez did remarkably well in his first two seasons and is clearly impatient to improve and that perhaps is his greatest failing; the inability to realized that further improvements will be in smaller increments than in the past. Yes he can be reckless at times; he's trying too hard to live up to or improve upon his first two dramatic seasons. That's just human nature. There are lots of other riders who have crashed more than MM and have far fewer points at this stage in the season and they don't get the same kind of flack. Because on a personal level he's quite unlikable - the haters are going to hate. If he wins it's because it's the best bike. If he loses it's _____ fill in the blanks.

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Kesh, sorry mate but to be fair to Rossi in particular, from what I understand he and Lorenzo have only crashed once this year in practice with Rossi's said to have been on the fork oil dropped by Pedrosa's perfect bike (Rossi blamed the oil)

But as an aside, I agree that Marquez is having to improve and I wonder if this is the issue ......... he has never really had experience improving in small increments and instead goes hell for leather and then cannot understand just where he should have backed off a little. Sometimes to learn more and learn faster, you need to move slow.

Gaz, Kesh is on record saying Marc had "evolved" (FACT), so it seems he had made the "small incremental improvements" (thats still what evolve means right) necessary to compete with the 'new and improved' competition.

Keshav said:

Marquez did remarkably well in his first two seasons and is clearly impatient to improve and that perhaps is his greatest failing; the inability to realized that further improvements will be in smaller increments than in the past.

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You see Gaz, Marc has "evolved" because he has yet to learn to 'evolve'. I know it may sound confusing, but that's just because we dont understand what Kesh really means. Kesh takes polar opposites of the same claim, but thats Kesh logic at work. That way he is right all the time (despite being wrong half the time).

Keshav said:

Pedrosa (who has won many races) has "The bike" and with all his years of experience and time at Honda, still hasn't won a championship, so let us not go down the "bike rode itself" path Bro.

Again, it's only you and Jum that are saying it's a ".... bike". It's (from reliable reports) a much more complicated bike to set-up and has been said many times to be not as forgiving as the Yamaha. That Pedrosa isn't bitching - is likely because he's just happy to have a gig after 9 years as a bridesmaid. You and Jum have to stop critisizing him for saying it's a .... bike - until such time that you provide a link to a statement or video of MM where he actually says that. If members of the press allege this - then that's not the fault of Marquez. So stop putting their assessments in his mouth.

The fact that MM crashed on a bumpy stretch in standing water while solidly in 2nd place, is hardly shameful. Lots of others crashed while they were in safer spots on the track 30-50 seconds back. It's racing in the rain. .... happens. MM never said it was a crap bike. He simply said the set-up wasn't optimal and he made a mistake. Hardly a reason to crucify him. People didn't scream and cry for Rossi's blood the way you guys do, when he had a commanding lead in Spain 2006 and threw away the championship when all he had to do was come in - was it 5th? Now that ... that was monumentally stupid. And who was villified after the incident? Nicky of course; because it was popular to hate him, same as it was with Stoner. Tall Poppy Syndrome as ever.

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lol what Kesh?

I don't understand you. I never claimed the RCV rode itself, what I did actually claim was that you can't beat the best if you haven't got the bike to do it. There's nothing even ridiculous about that claim. You need to have a weapon to fight with. That's been true of motor racing since the 19th century lol.

Us only saying it's a .... bike? I NEVER EVEN CLAIMED THE BIKE WAS .....

I've been defending the bike this whole time. I said most of the problems are not with the bike, but the guy RIDING the bike.

For the guy who is always singing about everyone else resorting to straw men, you do it quite a bit. Holy crap, Jums and I have been stating that the bike is far better than anyone else will give it credit for. All I stated is everyone and their mother has said the RCV is garbage, and I keep looking at the results to make sure I'm not imagining race victories achieved on a bike that supposedly makes the Aprilia look like a worldbeater if Kropo and the rest are to be believed.

I said that MM was quick to say there was a braking issue with the bike, and I said ........, who brakes in the middle of a 70MPH corner with their knee down, fully committed? Then I said that Kropo was blaming engine braking to which I said MORE .........

Arrab and I had a nice discussion with no straw men (which is all your post is made of) about the track surface at Silverstone. In fact, I distinctly remember being the one who said, well what if the bumps at Copse which are quite bad was responsible for MM losing the bike because he altered his line slightly through the corner as opposed to previous laps and basically misjudged his ability to successfully take the corner at speed in those conditions?

Here is the MotoGP spread of equipment:

1 & 2) M1 or RCV depending on the track.











Everyone else.

I said only in la-la land is a top 2 bike considered a piece of .....

MM's crashes are all of his own doing, not a .... bike as is being claimed by Kropo. Maybe Kropo can validate his claims all while telling me to go .... myself. How about it Krops?

Kesh I really can't stop laughing at what you said about me saying the bike is .....

Bro, let me tell you something, here's what REALLY happened.

Honda went into the offseason with MM's suggestions for improvement. They made the changes because they thought well this guy won a double on the trot, so he knows what needs to win. Stoner tests the bike, says it's good, needs a little work here and there.

Season starts.

MM ..... up on lap 1 in Qatar and finds himself really far behind. VR wins surprisingly after J-Lo decides $900K a year is worth more than a good helmet. I say surprisingly because no one expected it. Everyone says MM is still the man to beat, he had the pace, it was just the cockup on the first lap that screwed up the race, but he raced back to finish well all things considered.

We then go to COTA. MM sets track records...and does so while having to switch bikes and only having enough to do one banzai quali lap. ....... demolishes the track record. Gets in front in the race, then controls the pace to take victory. Everyone says well he is the man to beat, he's got the bike, and the championship is probably his.

We go to Argentina, no mentions of problems with the RCV anywhere I have looked.

Even states about Argentina that, "The track isn't easy - it has a long straight and many tight corners but I believe the Honda RC213V will work well there."

Takes pole again. Looks like the man to beat. Then race day comes and Rossi makes a strategic gamble on a hard tire no one else wants to use. Looks to be a bad move with the way the race unfolds, but then halfway through it becomes apparent it was a smart move. The gap starts closing, and then next thing, Rossi is right behind MM, and down the straight they go. MM slides out the rear in trademark style looking to carry his usual blazing corner entry speed, only...Rossi gets around the outside and manages to carry more speed. We see contact, but Rossi stays in front, and MM clearly has no intention of giving up the position, and he chops across Rossi's rear, makes contact, and goes down instantly.

All of a sudden rumblings start about the RCV not being that great. It picked up steam in Catalunya especially when he crashes out again. All of a sudden MM is saying the bike is floaty, and on and on. The journos are running with this, cornering Honda as press conferences questioning what is wrong with the bike. Suddenly everyone is in perfect agreement that MM can't be at fault, if only the bike would stop instantaneously, or adjust it's characteristics to every whim of the rider, he would be winning race after race. MM helps further this, going so as far to blame Casey Stoner for the supposed woes. Lap times indicate a bike identical to last year's bike, if not outright faster at certain tracks.

Everyone says it is the bike.

It can't possibly be that the RCV just didn't improve enough relative to the M1. Some state the RCV was built to beat a Ducati which can't keep up with either the M1 or the RCV. MM reverts to last year's chassis, and wins a few more races, but doesn't seem to be able to say what is better about it.

Everyone says the RCV is .....

Jums and I say no no no.

Kesh straw mans his way into claiming we said the bike was .....

Here we are now.

Lotus, I think you may have misunderstood Kesh (admittedly he does write in code) but what he is saying is that the bike is not literally a pile of feces. No really, he is calling ........ on our specific word "....". He can't understand that we are speaking figuratively and sarcastically to make a point. You and I understand that by calling the RCV "...." we are being sarcastic, meaning its superb whereby we are calling ........ on those claim equipment irregularities are to blame for Marcs crashes. And he defending his position that he has not called the RCV "...." because despite implying it was party to blame for Marcs woes, he has not specifically used the word "....". Yes, that is Kesh for you. He tactically can weaselout of the message he has suggested or conveyed by saying "I didn't say that."

Im laughing because he claimed Marc had "evolved" after a rare race that he didnt crash this year, then Marc destroyed Kesh's assessment by crashing the next race. Haha. Now look at what Kesh has said after a Marc crash, he said the lad hasnt 'evolved' but Kesh will claim he did not say that because this time he didn't use the WORD "evolve". Though what he said now is that Marc has not made the small incremental improvements ("inability to realize ...smaller incremental improvements" ) or in other words EVOLVED. Kesh prose.

Jumkie said:

Lotus, I think you may have misunderstood Kesh (admittedly he does write in code) but what he is saying is that the bike is not literally a pile of feces. No really, he is calling ........ on our specific word "....". He can't understand that we are speaking figuratively and sarcastically to make a point. You and I understand that by calling the RCV "...." we are being sarcastic, meaning its superb whereby we are calling ........ on those claim equipment irregularities are to blame for Marcs crashes. And he defending his position that he has not called the RCV "...." because despite implying it was party to blame for Marcs woes, he has not specifically used the word "....". Yes, that is Kesh for you. He tactically can weaselout of the message he has suggested or conveyed by saying "I didn't say that."

Im laughing because he claimed Marc had "evolved" after a rare race that he didnt crash this year, then Marc destroyed Kesh's assessment by crashing the next race. Haha. Now look at what Kesh has said after a Marc crash, he said the lad hasnt 'evolved' but Kesh will claim he did not say that because this time he didn't use the WORD "evolve". Though what he said now is that Marc has not made the small incremental improvements ("inability to realize ...smaller incremental improvements" ) or in other words EVOLVED. Kesh prose.

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Hahahahaha

Kesh wants to argue straw men and semantics all day.

I think just by typing the phrase "straw men" he will accuse me of being all about that.

Lol evolve vs. evolved, I'm dying reading that.

You know what's hilarious, I had a fight with a girl today who was trying to argue over the meaning of judgment today. I had her dead to rights, then she tried pulling a Kesh and said it was now "observational sightings that influenced my decision." So I said, so you in other words made a judgment? She said no it's not like that, it is an informed decision.

I think I got catfished by Kesh.

I wouldn't go so far as to say say catfished, but definitely crawfished.

Jumkie said:

I wouldn't go so far as to say say catfished, but definitely crawfished.

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Kesh is laying low for now.

He will be back tomorrow to deflect to something else.

Let me help get Kesh started.

Strawman!

And

Show me where I said...

While he is getting prepared, I'm curious about something else, why does no one want to discuss MM's crashes in 2015?

I'm near 110% certain that any discussion should lead to the skeptics realizing that they were all MM's fault as opposed to say Aragon 2013 where losing a sensor can have adverse effects on a bike.

Because arguing that point would be futile as arguing that there was some equipment irregularity on Miller's bike that caused him to torpedo Crutchlow.

You see when you simplify the argument into its basic elements the absurdity of blaming the equipment for rider input error becomes painfully obvious.

Cue up chirping crickets.

The

Jumkie said:

Lotus, I think you may have misunderstood Kesh (admittedly he does write in code) but what he is saying is that the bike is not literally a pile of feces. No really, he is calling ........ on our specific word "....". He can't understand that we are speaking figuratively and sarcastically to make a point. You and I understand that by calling the RCV "...." we are being sarcastic, meaning its superb whereby we are calling ........ on those claim equipment irregularities are to blame for Marcs crashes. And he defending his position that he has not called the RCV "...." because despite implying it was party to blame for Marcs woes, he has not specifically used the word "....". Yes, that is Kesh for you. He tactically can weaselout of the message he has suggested or conveyed by saying "I didn't say that."

Im laughing because he claimed Marc had "evolved" after a rare race that he didnt crash this year, then Marc destroyed Kesh's assessment by crashing the next race. Haha. Now look at what Kesh has said after a Marc crash, he said the lad hasnt 'evolved' but Kesh will claim he did not say that because this time he didn't use the WORD "evolve". Though what he said now is that Marc has not made the small incremental improvements ("inability to realize ...smaller incremental improvements" ) or in other words EVOLVED. Kesh prose.

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Again Jumkie, why does this have to be one of the very few entirely black and white issues in bike racing, or indeed human, history?

As you know I am no MM fan, and was someone who along with you was a critic even when he being called a " super alien". I don't see however why it is logically impossible simultaneously for him to be a rash and impetuous rider who has had luck in the past and has crashed this year because of this and his related inability to accept limitations of the bike and for the bike to be difficult to ride and not as good as it was relative to the Yamaha, whatever its previous status.

With all due respect my friend which of these crashes would you like to point out was caused by an irregularity of equipment?

Gaz said:

Kesh, sorry mate but to be fair to Rossi in particular, from what I understand he and Lorenzo have only crashed once this year in practice with Rossi's said to have been on the fork oil dropped by Pedrosa's perfect bike (Rossi blamed the oil)

But as an aside, I agree that Marquez is having to improve and I wonder if this is the issue ......... he has never really had experience improving in small increments and instead goes hell for leather and then cannot understand just where he should have backed off a little. Sometimes to learn more and learn faster, you need to move slow.

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Fair enough. I haven't watched any of the practice sessions this year. I only watch qualifying and the actual race. I have seen Rossi and Lorenzo crash during practices in earlier seasons; certainly a number of times the first few years when they graduated to the premier class.

Jumkie said:

Gaz, Kesh is on record saying Marc had "evolved" (FACT), so it seems he had made the "small incremental improvements" (thats still what evolve means right) necessary to compete with the 'new and improved' competition.





You see Gaz, Marc has "evolved" because he has yet to learn to 'evolve'. I know it may sound confusing, but that's just because we dont understand what Kesh really means. Kesh takes polar opposites of the same claim, but thats Kesh logic at work. That way he is right all the time (despite being wrong half the time).

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This is purile gibberish. If you want to debate facts - then do so. All you're doing is trying character assasinate - without actually addressing any of the issues at hand.

I think you have engaged in enough character suicide for me to pile on.


Offer still stands. Which of Marcs crashes would you like to debate was caused by equipment irregularities?