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Round 12 Silverstone: Practice, Qualifying, Race
- Thread starter Arrabbiata1
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Arrabbiata1
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As has been pointed out elsewhere, they are not Jorge's special tyres, they are the same tyres which had been standard for everyone (I think Valentino may even have voted for the tyre when he was still at Ducati), last year's tyre was the different tyre produced in response to the PI 2013 debacle.
The prevailing conditions are the same for everyone, and the same tyres are also available to all the factory riders. Whoever employs the available tyres best in the prevailing conditions over a whole season, whether individual races are wet or dry, to score the most points deserves the world championship, no caveats. I actually agree another wet race will very much favour Valentino winning the championship, and that he has ridden remarkably well, as has obviously been his career long habit, but particularly so given he is 36 and his rivals in their 20s. Recognising this does not require questioning Jorge's toughness though, the guy rode a race the same weekend he broke and had internal fixation of his clavicle ffs, and if his head has ever been done in it was for a brief period last year when he had a few bad races and MM looked totally invincible by anyone.
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Fair enough... although we all know from experience that suddenly slowing it down, in a difficult situation like that, can disrupt whatever precarious balance a rider had found with his bike and tires, often more so than pushing it to the limit.
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Let's be real, MM is prone to making mistakes.
Blaming the bike is hilarious when it comes to a few of the incidents this year.
Did the bike make him decide to chop across VR's rear wheel in Argentina?
Did the bike make him try to battering ram VR in Assen?
Did the bike make him try to torpedo J-Lo at Catalunya?
Did the bike make him crash out at Mugello? Well the tires gave him no feel supposedly, but I have doubts about that crash anyway it looked like he got slow in the corner. Amateur mistake.
Here's some 2013 crashes, but before anyone says it was his rookie season, he was good enough to win the title. So the rookie excuse doesn't work.
Mugello
Assen
Misano
Motegi
Luckily for him none of them occurred during the races, but I think the guy got lucky in making them all when they didn't count. Point is everyone crashes as Jums said. Only difference is the bike is blamed for everything every time he crashes now. Is there some truth to the bike not being as he likes it? I will grant him that much, but that's part of motor racing. The machine doesn't always match up perfectly to what a rider or driver wants. The job of the rider is to bring the bike home in the highest possible FINISHING position.
Blaming the bike is hilarious when it comes to a few of the incidents this year.
Did the bike make him decide to chop across VR's rear wheel in Argentina?
Did the bike make him try to battering ram VR in Assen?
Did the bike make him try to torpedo J-Lo at Catalunya?
Did the bike make him crash out at Mugello? Well the tires gave him no feel supposedly, but I have doubts about that crash anyway it looked like he got slow in the corner. Amateur mistake.
Here's some 2013 crashes, but before anyone says it was his rookie season, he was good enough to win the title. So the rookie excuse doesn't work.
Mugello
Assen
Misano
Motegi
Luckily for him none of them occurred during the races, but I think the guy got lucky in making them all when they didn't count. Point is everyone crashes as Jums said. Only difference is the bike is blamed for everything every time he crashes now. Is there some truth to the bike not being as he likes it? I will grant him that much, but that's part of motor racing. The machine doesn't always match up perfectly to what a rider or driver wants. The job of the rider is to bring the bike home in the highest possible FINISHING position.
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This stuff is hilarious. Ok, lets try this another way. Arrabi, lets do this by the numbers, which Marquez crash in a race this year was caused partly or soley by the RCV? (Obviously lets not talk about the crashes of other riders during the season because ONLY they as a rider are to blame apparently, im ok suspending logic for this one rider.) Ive read the "logic"; its untenable at best and absurd, comical at worst. You will need to use logic to advance the case that there was some malfunction that could not be mitigated by rider input. I know the best that can be offered, so lets put this debate to rest. So lets debate it then. Let's not talk general crashes of the season, lets go one by one. Which crash would u like to start with?
I challenge you sir, to a duel.
LOL
I challenge you sir, to a duel.
LOL
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Sadly yes. I remember that he lapped his team mate in Brazil before he spun, which showed how much he was pushing the car.
Off topic JPS I know, but what do you think happened in his crash? I'm unsure of the steering failure theory because surely he'd have locked at least one wheel trying to slow it down. I've often wondered that even if there was a mechanical failure, that it was his intent to go over the grass then try and regain control in the run off and rejoin the track.
Off topic JPS I know, but what do you think happened in his crash? I'm unsure of the steering failure theory because surely he'd have locked at least one wheel trying to slow it down. I've often wondered that even if there was a mechanical failure, that it was his intent to go over the grass then try and regain control in the run off and rejoin the track.
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Drop the mic JPS!
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Lotus, and all members, which rider has nothing to complain about their bike?
Well "logically" (if we are to follow this new paradigm) Lorenzo and Rossi ( and anybody else who has not crashed this year). And it follows then that neither of them have asked for updates or complained about any deficiencies on the m1. Because you have never heard that in any of their interviews. The m1 is apparently perfect and all the other riders below them who have not experienced a crash.. My esteemed friend Arabiya used the cliche earlier in this thread that the RCV road itself to make the point that Marcus input on his machine where being down played by me because again I propose his machine is the best one on the grid. However let's examine the logic (lets shelve for the moment that a rider can be both simultaneously on the best machine and be a great rider) so...logically when a crash occurs it has nothing to do with the rider input. So perhaps the bike does ride itself! Logically speaking of course.
Well "logically" (if we are to follow this new paradigm) Lorenzo and Rossi ( and anybody else who has not crashed this year). And it follows then that neither of them have asked for updates or complained about any deficiencies on the m1. Because you have never heard that in any of their interviews. The m1 is apparently perfect and all the other riders below them who have not experienced a crash.. My esteemed friend Arabiya used the cliche earlier in this thread that the RCV road itself to make the point that Marcus input on his machine where being down played by me because again I propose his machine is the best one on the grid. However let's examine the logic (lets shelve for the moment that a rider can be both simultaneously on the best machine and be a great rider) so...logically when a crash occurs it has nothing to do with the rider input. So perhaps the bike does ride itself! Logically speaking of course.
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Sorry for the delay Talps, I'm traveling at the moment. You may very well be right. I'd also agree regarding Lorenzo's need for a perfect set up. We'll see how this goes. It's going to be entertaining.
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Lets be even more real. Everyone is prone to mistakes. Everyone crashes from time-to-time. Vale and Jorge crash in practice all the time and they're far more experienced than MM. Marquez did remarkably well in his first two seasons and is clearly impatient to improve and that perhaps is his greatest failing; the inability to realized that further improvements will be in smaller increments than in the past. Yes he can be reckless at times; he's trying too hard to live up to or improve upon his first two dramatic seasons. That's just human nature. There are lots of other riders who have crashed more than MM and have far fewer points at this stage in the season and they don't get the same kind of flack. Because on a personal level he's quite unlikable - the haters are going to hate. If he wins it's because it's the best bike. If he loses it's _____ fill in the blanks.
Even if next year he comes back and runs a perfect season and never crashes or does anything untoward - Jape and Jum (no relationship to Frick and Frack) will manage to concoct reasons to hate him, same as the Boppers did with Stoner. He has a cheater bike, Dave Emmet has secretly conspired with Carmelo to slip him SNSs, his bones have been replaced with honeycombed titanium etc etc. Nobody deserves to win the championship without Jum's approval as he is the King-Maker, and no equipment failure is legit unless Mr. X-Ray Eyes confirms it.
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.
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The steering column failure was as bogus as it came. It was a cop out excuse made to blame Williams F1 as it was the easiest excuse one could do because anything else would have essentially put the blame squarely on the most popular driver on the planet, and a triple world champion to boot.
Going back to his Lotus days, Senna was notorious for trying to alleviate car handling issues by running the ride height of the car as low as he possibly could. Trying to create that ground effects seal with the floor was attractive to him when he needed another tenth or two. Where that comes into play here is that the FW16 was ill-handling in the rear of the car. Williams had been so involved with the active suspension in 1992 and 1993, they were simply behind on how to build a traditional suspension without the active parts, that they basically ...... up. It was compounded with Newey's aero approach with the rear of the car, so you had a car that was prone to understeering and oversteering on the same lap. Hell you could approach the same corner on two consecutive laps and have different handling characteristics.
During the morning warm-ups on May 1st, Senna was still unhappy with the handling of the car, in spite of alterations made to the FW16 that were supposed to provide a more stable rear end. In between the morning session and the 2PM start time, he decided to make a setup change with regards to the ride height of the car and went lower as he was wont to do.
Fast forward to the race start, you had the accident with Pedro Lamy and JJ Lehto when the lights went out, and the subsequent safety car period with that piece of .... Opel. Once the lights went out on the safety car, Senna caught the entire field sans Michael Schumacher napping and took off coming out of Rivazza. That started lap 6 under race conditions. As a side note, during the morning review with the team, he told Damon Hill to take an outside line through the Tamburello as the inside line had an extremely bumpy surface, and was likely to upset the car. On lap 6 Senna took an inside line, and you can see the car bottoming out with a huge shower of sparks. In fact that whole lap, you can see is on the limit. I've seen the full onboard from Tossa on lap 6 all the way to the Tamburello on lap 7, and he was driving like a man possessed. Sets the third fastest lap of the entire race on a restart lap with cold tires. In any event, the car was bottoming out the entire way in spite of the tires getting up to temperature because the track surface was spotty and he was running lower than what one should have been based on track surface. He bottomed out on lap 7 going into the Tamburello, and you see a shower of sparks come out, and instantly the car veered right off the track into the wall.
No one wanted to blame Senna because no one wanted to believe he basically ...... up and didn't get away with the mistake. He made plenty of mistakes during his career, but most of it gets washed away with the Saint Senna ......... He was desperate for a race win come Imola, and was not prepared to accept anything less even if it meant driving the car on the limit for 60 laps. The smart play would have been to drive for the points even if it meant Schumacher winning, as he would still have been on the podium. It's what Alain Prost would have done as you score points and wait for your team to work out all of the kinks which they did do.
The biggest change that lends a lot of credibility to the ride height, and the inside world of F1 knowing it was down to the ride height was when the FIA mandated the skid plank under the car which effectively established a minimum ride height of sorts as you could only have a certain amount of wear on the skid plank. We've had it for over 20 years now for a good reason. That was why the cars stopped sparking underneath because they weren't being run millimeters away from the ground because the plank wouldn't allow for it.
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Funny thing is, VR complains about his bike setup all the time, but he does it carefully, so it appears like the M1 rides itself. Every rider does it with careful language, but I maybe I have a reading comprehension problem, and they aren't really complaining about the bike.
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I'll just add here that Lorenzo has fallen just once this year and Rossi hasn't fallen at all (if you neglect the Michelin test). I remember them making a big thing of it last time out.
Interesting, thank you.
So was the car out of control between losing aero and hitting the wall or do you think like I he mayne tried to keep the car going into the run-off to get back on the track?
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It was more like what happens if you're riding a motorcycle and the beg starts scraping into the ground, and you get that surfboard effect where the bike goes in one direction and doesn't respond to steering input.
Aero certainly may have been affected. But Schumacher also commented that Senna nearly lost the car on lap 6 when they went through there. He basically was taking a lot of risks (sound familiar?
) to try and cut a points deficit more quickly instead of being patient. I think he got caught out by what happened, and the only thing he was able to do was cut the speed from 190MPH down to 130MPH before he hit the wall. He did apply the brakes before the impact. That was a very narrow track, and a very narrow runoff area. So there was little that he could do with the space he had to work with.
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Yes - but as I said, they're much more seasoned with many more years riding MGP bikes. Compare their number of crashes when they were 22 years old.
Funny (and I don't direct this at you) how everyone jumps on the number of times MM has crashed without contrasting that to the number of times he's beaten vastly more experienced riders and his record number of poles and record number of consecutive wins. Kinda balance things out - don't you think?
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Can't beat the best if you don't have the bike to do it Kesh.
This is where the conundrum is.
He supposedly has a .... bike, meanwhile his teammate hasn't even come close to mouthing off the way he has. Then in spite of such a .... bike, he has won races, and done poorly in races due to his own mistakes, yet those mistakes are being blamed on the bike instead of the rider.
In what reality does that even make sense?
The Silverstone crash was supposedly the bike's fault, I think there's a good chance he simply got unsettled on the bumps in Copse and high-sided because of it. Sadly without the telemetry we're never going to be able to find out for certain.
