Riders of Today VS Riders of Yesterday

Ah< good to see ole fast Freddie gettin some love, a total god on his day, a sad, sad sight on an off day. Its nice to think about how the old school guys would have done now, I think the big guns, the Doohans, Raineys, Gardners, Roberts senior et all would be right up there, as would Hailwood and Sheene and Schwantz. (If he kept the black bits touching the track!) Rossi, Capirossi and the others would have thier hands MORE than full!.

But heres a little thought to throw into the mix, Barros has beaten Rossi when they were both on RCVs, more than once, and he was an also ran against Doohan, Rainey and Schwantz and that whole gp era.

I agree, Rossi is definately one of the all time best, maybe even THE best, certainly, his was the first and only replica helmet I bought, and I've been following gp since Sheene and Roberts.

At the end of the day, it would be a hell of a race, and I'd be first to buy a ticket, but remember, Doohan, Schwantz and Rainey all retired permanantly disabled......It doesnt get more intense than that.

Pete

<span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%Sheene Nuff said..

and Rossi words "I put the number seven on my t-shirt because this is the number of my championships but also because it was the number of Barry Sheene, who was a great hero of mine."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rising Sun @ Nov 10 2006, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It is fascinating, isn't it? Maybe pointless, but still fun--

Yeah, but I learned a hell of alot from both Tom and Sun's posts. Basspete and Skidmark's commentary added great additional perspectives. You guys make me want to go out and by a book on this stuff. Please continue the history lesson.

(Also, are you guys 100 years old, cuz you guys sound like you actually saw these guys race.)

Very interesting perspective and perhaps when we are all in the great racetrack of the great beyond, maybe we can get all these champs and have a run-off. (My money's on Hayden. Hey I can dream can't I?)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Nov 11 2006, 06:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well, i've really enoyed reading your responses, its great to be able to throw these idea around and see what people come up with. I feel slightly like i have been put in my place, but its all good. I'd rather discuss with knowledgable people than talk at a .......
Props to you for posting this, it's the kind of attitude we should all have when posting/responding. It's what this forum ought to be about.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Nov 11 2006, 06:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>and i dont think people mention freddie spencer enough.
Yeah, that's so true. It's probably because of everything that happened in the years after his championships--the aborted comebacks, the mystery injuries, etc. But his battle for the 83 crown with Roberts Snr was intense, and the 250/500 double in 85 was amazing. The guy had so much talent.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rising Sun @ Nov 11 2006, 04:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Props to you for posting this, it's the kind of attitude we should all have when posting/responding. It's what this forum ought to be about.That's it right there!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Nov 10 2006, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ah< good to see ole fast Freddie gettin some loveFreddie is a guy I don't know enough about. There must be a good biog or DVD out there, Anyone?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Nov 11 2006, 02:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, but I learned a hell of alot from both Tom and Sun's posts. Basspete and Skidmark's commentary added great additional perspectives. You guys make me want to go out and by a book on this stuff. Please continue the history lesson.

(Also, are you guys 100 years old, cuz you guys sound like you actually saw these guys race.)

Very interesting perspective and perhaps when we are all in the great racetrack of the great beyond, maybe we can get all these champs and have a run-off. (My money's on Hayden. Hey I can dream can't I?)Jumkie, if you haven't read them already, try Rainey's or Doohan's biographies for starters. There's also some top footage on youtube if you want a quick hit. I've been watching some old video tape since the season ended, and the thing that sticks out a mile is how quickly a 500 steered compared to the current diesels. Makes me even more excited about 800's.

I used to buy the seasons revue videos as soon as they came out, go onto ebay and see if you can find some 500 videos. Like skidmark, I like to dig them out regularly for a fix. Those things were EVIL! watch how much Doohan physically ages over a few years!

(Also, are you guys 100 years old, cuz you guys sound like you actually saw these guys race.)

Nice quote mate, but I'm not quite 100 yet!

Get as many books on these guys as you can, I read in the MZ racers book that Hailwood, (whose dad was a millionaire) used to ride the bike he liked, and rode for MZ when they couldnt pay him, but he had so much respect for the team he wanted to ride the bike!

If you ever get the chance to get up close to a TZ 750, your opinion of Sheene and Roberts will go through the roof! The most intimidating looking bike I've ever seen!

Cheers

Pete

I am similar in the fact that i learn a lot from reading books and getting videos of season reviews and the ocasional you-tube video session. I myself am only 19 years old, and only been watching Gp's since the end of the 98 season. But i find the history of the sport as important as the present, and do what i can to learn. I too feel like some of the people on here have been around a while, and know more than i ever could, but i'll keep learning as long as i am interested (forever).

I recently bought a book at our bike show, about the history of Hondas grand prix race bikes, celebrating there 500th race win they acheived in 2001, so its not the newest book, but a great read.

Basspete Ill take the bait you said about Barros.

I love his style! So aggressive on the brakes!
His nuimber is one of my favs too #4.

Thats why he is one of the most respected riders on the grid.
He was missed this season and I feare for him not winning a championship because the man is fast! I hope he does not turn into a has-been and people remember him in the future.

You all talk about those old riders.
I'm new school, I just remember their names as legends that ruled the sport and made huge impacts on it.

Schwantz, Rainey, Gardner, Sheene, Spencer and all the others.
I'm new school, i just started watching Gp's 2004. The Mugello race was the first one I ever saw.

I respect all the legends though.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CaptainSnow @ Nov 11 2006, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Basspete Ill take the bait you said about Barros.

I love his style! So aggressive on the brakes!
His nuimber is one of my favs too #4.

Thats why he is one of the most respected riders on the grid.
He was missed this season and I feare for him not winning a championship because the man is fast! I hope he does not turn into a has-been and people remember him in the future.

Personally I don't like Barros, it's nothing personal but all you need to do is look at his statistics and it provesa point.

5 wins (I think) in TWENTY years, he's been racing longer than I've been alive (and a lot more), but he hasn't achieved anything, not anything as much as a championship, he's the token Brazilian.

His botched WSB move made him look a bigger fool, the so called GP legend only winning one race...mind you, it shows the class of talent in WSB.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Nov 11 2006, 08:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Personally I don't like Barros, it's nothing personal but all you need to do is look at his statistics and it provesa point.

5 wins (I think) in TWENTY years, he's been racing longer than I've been alive (and a lot more), but he hasn't achieved anything, not anything as much as a championship, he's the token Brazilian.

His botched WSB move made him look a bigger fool, the so called GP legend only winning one race...mind you, it shows the class of talent in WSB.
500cc and MotoGP

In 1990, Alex Barros was the youngest rider in history to join the top motorcycling category, the 500cc, at the age of 20. In his first year, he was 12th overall, with 57 points. Notable results included 8th in the United States and Germany, and 5th in the Belgium Grand Prix. Two years later, his first podium: a third place in the Netherlands.

The year of 1993 saw his breakthrough as he joined the Suzuki team. After qualifying third in the US Grand Prix, Barros had his first victory in Spain, finishing that year's world championship in sixth place. His team-mate Kevin Schwantz was that year's champion. The following year, Barros scored in all but one the races. 1996 saw his best performance yet, finishing the championship at fourth, a feat he repeated in 2000, 2001 and 2002. In 2002, the first of MotoGP (with engine displacement capacity increased to up to 990cc) he scored 206 points, eleven points behind second place. 2003 was a difficult one for Barros due to injuries, but in 2004, he once again finished the championship in fourth, in a season dominated by Valentino Rossi, Sete Gibernau and Max Biaggi. In 2005, Barros returned to the top of the podium, at the Portuguese Grand Prix, however he did not mount a lasting championship challenge, and was not offered a ride for 2006.
a lot concidered him deadwood

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Nov 11 2006, 09:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>500cc and MotoGP

In 1990, Alex Barros was the youngest rider in history to join the top motorcycling category, the 500cc, at the age of 20. In his first year, he was 12th overall, with 57 points. Notable results included 8th in the United States and Germany, and 5th in the Belgium Grand Prix. Two years later, his first podium: a third place in the Netherlands.

The year of 1993 saw his breakthrough as he joined the Suzuki team. After qualifying third in the US Grand Prix, Barros had his first victory in Spain, finishing that year's world championship in sixth place. His team-mate Kevin Schwantz was that year's champion. The following year, Barros scored in all but one the races. 1996 saw his best performance yet, finishing the championship at fourth, a feat he repeated in 2000, 2001 and 2002. In 2002, the first of MotoGP (with engine displacement capacity increased to up to 990cc) he scored 206 points, eleven points behind second place. 2003 was a difficult one for Barros due to injuries, but in 2004, he once again finished the championship in fourth, in a season dominated by Valentino Rossi, Sete Gibernau and Max Biaggi. In 2005, Barros returned to the top of the podium, at the Portuguese Grand Prix, however he did not mount a lasting championship challenge, and was not offered a ride for 2006.
a lot concidered him deadwood


so there.

Yep, I know the guys history, all I was saying was he HAS beaten Rossi head to head on the same bike, period. Not many can say that, I'm just pointing out that he is one guy who has bridged racing against different generations, and some of the results are interesting. I dont think you can really put too much on his result on the superbike this year, the only guy who has really made an impact on both was Little John, (Koscinski) a superbike is very different to a prototype, and outside of Bayliss's unbelievable result, guys like Edwards and indeed Bayliss who kicked ... in supers, have struggled in Motogp.

All part of lifes rich tapestry....
Pete

i was actualy responding to phleg.. his point was .

Personally I don't like Barros, it's nothing personal but all you need to do is look at his statistics and it provesa point.

5 wins (I think) in TWENTY years, he's been racing longer than I've been alive (and a lot more), but he hasn't achieved anything, not anything as much as a championship, he's the token Brazilian.

His botched WSB move made him look a bigger fool, the so called GP legend only winning one race...mind you, it shows the class of talent in WSB.

in no means do i concider him to be on rossi's level but to say he has achieved nothing deserved my responce. your right basspete he did beat rossi on the same bike once or twice,and thats no mean fete,but like all the others he faded away..

Hey Roger, thats cool mate, I was just backing up that he cant just be dismissed off hand. I agree with you, I've never been a Barros fan, but I do think he deserves a bit of respect for what he has achieved.
He's not at Rossi's level consistantly ( and really that says it all) , but on his day he did make Rossi look a bit secondhand a couple of times.

Pete

Rossi himself has said that on a good day he can't beat Barros.
On a bad day Barros can still beat half the riders out there.

WSBK, for one year on a good bike (not the best) and wins a race and ran up front a few times. Damn good rider I'd say.

I'd agree with that, I dont think you could write him off just yet, still a good bit of life in Barros.

Pete

What a great thread, I have both learned and laughed. Stats of racers don’t always tell the whole story of their struggles and accomplishments, but checking out autobiographies and year reviews is something that I definitely will visit and revisit. I gotta do something to pass the time having to wait what seems like an eternity for the racing season to start up. Hey Roger, thanks for putting together those stats on Barros. I enjoyed getting the takes on past champs and racers from all the posters as well on this thread. Big ups yall.

Barros, Checa, Junior, Nakano and Capirossi will all be on the boil next year, older heads on very capable shoulders in the autumn of their careers. Hey they're all 500 guys, does that make them riders of yesterday just a bit? They're all on potentailly competitive kit plus there's a bit of personal history between them. I think they've all got points to prove to themselves. There's gonna be some battles.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rising Sun @ Nov 10 2006, 06:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It is fascinating, isn't it? Maybe pointless, but still fun--especially since I have to disagree with almost everything you wrote!

I think the old-skool guys would handle it just fine. They had crap tyres, evil-handling machines, rode on mostly closed (and dangerous) public road circuits. Races were longer, and most guys rode all day in two or three different classes. Riding bikes that are light years ahead in ridability and traction for one 45 minute race on purpose-built circuits (that actually have SLOWER average lap speeds) would be a cake walk compared to that. I'm not saying that Agostini and co. would blow the modern guys away without a sweat, but they'd win more than their fair share.
He might at that. As I said above a champion in one era is likely a champion in all eras.

I guess I disagree based on the same facts you point out. They had crap tires, evel handling machines.... and big balls.

Today it's not at all about throttle control, knowing evey evil quirk from the bike, high speed straights and grande coyones. It's about cornerspeed, controlled two wheel slides, accuracy and much more. It is to me two very different sets of abilities and I can't see how they can mach in a way that would enable the old school to perfom today as little as todays riders would perform on those days bikes.