Riders of Today VS Riders of Yesterday

Hi Gang...

Having been a Fan of the 500cc Days, and Motogp Days of today, i often
wonder how the Riders of old would have gone against todays young Guns.. Example to see
Doohan take on Rossi, or Rainey to take on Melandri. i often ponder this.
Mabee to much time on my hands guys.. my Question is, if we took,

Doohan
Gardner
Rainey
Schwantz
Lawson
Mamola
Spencer.

And put these guys in Todays Motogp padock, when they were in there prime ofcourse, how do you think they would go?

Probably a silly question, though i thought id throw it out there.

well i gotta go to work now, but it will certainly give me something to think about while im there lol


thing is, the new era of motogp bikes are completly different to the 500cc's of their generation



so whats the actual question...


are we talking about having the old schoolers on the 990cc bikes? ...or having them on the 500cc



i dunno, it gets the brain churning... but im gonna say that the new era would be significantly better... not necessarily down to rider talent, but more how the bikes have improved




good topic tho matey, looking foward to hearing some answers.

Tis' the stuff of dreams Stoner, If things had been different we may have got to see Mick actually race an RCV. Good to see another fan of the 'old' guys here, welcome!

Good topic Stoner 27...

If all the riders were riding on the same bike, all at the top of their form then I think Valentino Rossi would come out on top most races but Agostini and Doohan wouldn't be too far behind.

To me Rossi is a whole gear above anyone else who has ever raced a bike. Capirossi and Hayden could probably beat Agostini and Doohan a lot.

Alex, ever read Doohan's or Rainey's biographies? Might be well worth asking Santa for them. And we forgot Roberts and Sheene!

If it had to be any guy to overcome all disasters, adversity and a whole string of rivals it would have to be Doohan, the only man who is arguably as good if not a better bike developer than Rossi and most definitely the master of phsycology, was only robbed of another couple of titles by injury. I'd say Mick would royally kick everyones ... on a 500 but Valentino would come up tops on the 4 strokes. [edit] but then again, Mick was a superbiker wasn't he Somebody invent a time machine please!

I'm not sure Rossi would dominate the guys listed above as much as the current crop of riders. Did you leave KR Sr out intentionally? I've always been a Rainey and Doohan fan, it would be cool to see Rossi race against these guys in their prime. Now that would have been one hell of a race.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stoner 27 @ Nov 1 2006, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Doohan
Gardner
Rainey
Schwantz
Lawson
Mamola
Spencer
Sheene
Roberts Snr
BeattieOk different angle, can anyone come up with a list of 10 harder riders than this?

This is, of course, a question that gets asked about all sports. The greats of one era would most likely be greats in any other era. The talent, determination, skill and, ahem... greatness that elevates them above their peers are timeless qualities.

It's such a shame that we never got to see Rossi vs. Doohan. The anticipation for Rossi vs. Pedrosa that started building in 2005 (hope we get to see more than just 5-10 laps at Brno of that particular battle next year) mirrors the initial talk surrounding Rossi's move up to the 500s. I think Rossi himself has said it's one of his biggest regrets in racing.

I think only Rossi from the current MotoGP era could match it with the greats of the past. And if all the riders were in their prime (and of course riding on competitive machinery) I doubt that Doohan or Rossi or Agostini or Hailwood would be able to dominate like they did. Imagine if this had taken place for the Championship this year:

Factory Honda:
Gardner, Doohan, Rossi
(all under the watchful gaze of Jeremy Burgess)

Satellite Honda:
Spencer, Biaggi
(Gotta have Max, if only for the tantrums he'd throw at being outclassed all the time. And imagine these two as team mates--Israeli Racer would love it!)

Factory Yamaha:
Roberts Snr, Lawson

Satellite Yamaha:
Rainey, Sarron
(Since Frenchmen seem to be flavour of the month, I had to include one. Sarron was THE hardman of 500cc racing. Fast, wild, and with a crash count that Stoner, Checa and De Puniet couldn't hope to match in their wildest dreams. He'd probably be on pole for most of the races in Europe, but rarely make it past the first lap.)

Factory Suzuki:
Sheene, Schwantz
(The party team!)

Factory Ducati:
Agostini, Hailwood
(Sure, they aren't MVs, but it's the next best thing. Mike the Bike even won a GP on a 125 Ducati back in the day!)

Satellite Ducati:
Bayliss, Corser
(The two Troys might just be making up the numbers in this field, but could still spring a few surprises.)

Factory Kawasaki:
Kork Ballington, Gregg Hansford
(Okay, these guys would be making up the numbers--because it is Kawasaki, after all--but you gotta have Team Green on the grid.)

20 Annoying backmarkers on clapped out ex-factory bikes.
(I miss these guys! Getting in the way, ruining races, someone for Doohan to shake his fist at, or Lawson to fume about during practice. Cardoso is their spiritual leader.)

I've probably left out many riders worthy of a start in this gird, but I think all the big names are there. I can't imagine who would come out on top, though I have a feeling his passport would be American or Australian somehow...

My personal belief is that Kevin Schwantz was the fastest man to ever ride a grand prix motorcycle.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ Nov 1 2006, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If things had been different we may have got to see Mick actually race an RCV.
I dont quite remember where or when i watched it, but i saw a short bio on Doohan, and he actually counts that accident as a blessing Skid. He said he was a point in his career where he was over racing bikes and just wanted a family life.
It is contrary to what i always thought, is that the accident ended every hope of Doohan racing again.

Would still love to see him on these new beasts.

and welcome stoner 27 ... good to see another aussie around!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (skidmark @ Nov 1 2006, 11:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If it had to be any guy to overcome all disasters, adversity and a whole string of rivals it would have to be Doohan, the only man who is arguably as good if not a better bike developer than Rossi and most definitely the master of phsycology, was only robbed of another couple of titles by injury. I'd say Mick would royally kick everyones ... on a 500 but Valentino would come up tops on the 4 strokes. [edit] but then again, Mick was a superbiker wasn't he Somebody invent a time machine please!

I agree. Of all of them, Rossi and Doohan seem to be the ones who had "The whole package", but I think Doohan was better because he did what he did on a 500. On the other hand, I think Rossi could beat Mick on a 990. Traction control and smoother power delivery would make a bike easier to ride, and one of the keys to Doohan's success was that he seemed to have all of that "built in" to his hands in a time when the bikes were nowhere near as polite, so Mick was putting down good laps while everyone else was fighting to keep it rubber side down. Doohan also cut his teeth against the likes of Gardiner, Schwantz and Rainey. Biaggi dosen't really stack up in that sense.

As for Ago, well, I don't mean to take anything away from his achivements, but it's very easy to say he's the best when you look at the records. But keep in mind, back in the day when it was Hailwood and Ago on MVs, Haliwood beat him. Then when Hailwood switched to the inferior Honda. (Let me say that again: "Inferior Honda" hehee give me giggles ) Ago beat him twice. Then Ago continued to dominate through the 70's, although a lot of the time he was on the only "Factory" bike on the grid, against guys who built their bikes in the garage at home by doing things like sawing one cylinder off a 750 triple to make a 500 and the like. Then Sheene came along on a factory Suzuki and Ago's domination ended. Like I said, I don't mean to take anything away from him, but things aren't always as they seem.
Now I did that all on memory, and I'm no history buff, so if I made some mistakes there feel free to point them out.

this is the kinda stuff dreams are made of. maybe when were all pushin up daisies then we'll all go to that big race track in the sky & see all these guy's race together. .... as a matter of fact we should get to be the back markers that sun was talkin about! all hail cardosa!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Nov 2 2006, 06:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>this is the kinda stuff dreams are made of. maybe when were all pushin up daisies then we'll all go to that big race track in the sky & see all these guy's race together. .... as a matter of fact we should get to be the back markers that sun was talkin about! all hail cardosa!!!


Wouldnt that be great Frosty58..
A dream line up, though who would win?
Podium would be

1st Doohan
2nd Rossi
3rd Gardner

LOL you couldnt pick the winner, anyway thanks all for replying to my first post guys, its good to be here.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ Nov 1 2006, 04:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My personal belief is that Kevin Schwantz was the fastest man to ever ride a grand prix motorcycle.

+1

This is a very very facinating topic but a hard one to really make sense of. It is near impossible to imagine the old-skool riders even in there prime, riding in gp's today. Motogp is on another level to what it used to be. I mean the riders nowadays are total athletes of the highest degree, and the mental strain is beyond what it ever has been. If you put agostini on rossis m1 he'd probably not be strong enough to turn it properley, and his mind wouldnt be able to deal with the rediculous speeds.

Comparisons can be made with slightly more modern riders such as doohan schwantz and rainey, but i think rossi would beat them all. even on 500's. Schawantz was quick on his day, but he didnt have enough days, and i find wayne rainey to be slightly over rated. Doohan was of course better than both of them. But i disagree that he is the best bike developer. He left his chassis virtually unchanged from 1991 and got pissed off when honda changed anything at all. then when rossi got hold of the bike in 2000, he and JB spent the winter changing it up and came back in 2001 with a far superior motorcycle.

I find, a much more fun thing to ponder, is how the new generatioon of motogp stars would have dealt with 500s.

I dream quite often of seeing melandri ride an nsr 500, or ask myslef if pedrosa could master it, or even if hayden would still be the champiopn he is if things were still 2-stroke.

Unfortunately i havnt had much time for this recently, as my mind is fully consumed with excitement for the 2007 season, bring it on

We know Rossi could ride a 500, no questions. I believe your assumption that Hayden couldn't ride one is a little off though. Coming from a dirt track racing back ground gives him one up on the 125/250 contingents as those things were total beasts to ride, hence the reason Rainey (not over-rated), Schwantz, and KR were able to win world championships.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Nov 10 2006, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is a very very facinating topic but a hard one to really make sense of. It is near impossible to imagine the old-skool riders even in there prime, riding in gp's today. Motogp is on another level to what it used to be. I mean the riders nowadays are total athletes of the highest degree, and the mental strain is beyond what it ever has been. If you put agostini on rossis m1 he'd probably not be strong enough to turn it properley, and his mind wouldnt be able to deal with the rediculous speeds.
It is fascinating, isn't it? Maybe pointless, but still fun--especially since I have to disagree with almost everything you wrote!

I think the old-skool guys would handle it just fine. They had crap tyres, evil-handling machines, rode on mostly closed (and dangerous) public road circuits. Races were longer, and most guys rode all day in two or three different classes. Riding bikes that are light years ahead in ridability and traction for one 45 minute race on purpose-built circuits (that actually have SLOWER average lap speeds) would be a cake walk compared to that. I'm not saying that Agostini and co. would blow the modern guys away without a sweat, but they'd win more than their fair share.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Nov 10 2006, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Comparisons can be made with slightly more modern riders such as doohan schwantz and rainey, but i think rossi would beat them all. even on 500's.
He might at that. As I said above a champion in one era is likely a champion in all eras. But who gets JB as his main man--Doohan or Rossi?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Nov 10 2006, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I find, a much more fun thing to ponder, is how the new generatioon of motogp stars would have dealt with 500s.

I dream quite often of seeing melandri ride an nsr 500, or ask myslef if pedrosa could master it, or even if hayden would still be the champiopn he is if things were still 2-stroke.
Well, Marco can produce a wicked slide, that's for sure! But consider this: from the mid 80s to the mid 90s when the 500s were at their hardest to ride the championship was dominanted by Americans and Australians. The Europeans, with their 125 and 250 backgrounds, went... missing. Hayden, actually, would probably have fitted right in.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Nov 10 2006, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Doohan was of course better than both of them [Rainey and Schwantz]. But i disagree that he is the best bike developer. He left his chassis virtually unchanged from 1991 and got pissed off when honda changed anything at all.
Heh, and I disagree that you disagree. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Fiddling with the chassis affects all the other settings and it takes time to send it back to the factory to get it right if want to adjust the chassis itself (unless you want to do a Sheene and chop one in half and re-weld it yourself). The HRC guys love to tinker, just for the sake of it: anyone remember Spenser's DNF because his carbon fibre wheels broke in South Africa 86 (or 84?), of Doohan's DNF because of experiments with water cooling at Eastern Creek in the 90s? HRC even managed to take a championship winning bike in 87 and turn it into a piece of .... in one off season.

Doohan focused on making the bike more rideable, and won 5 championships because of it. He probably did too good a job because then guys like Criville and Biaggi and even Itoh and Okada came along and were able to beat him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Nov 10 2006, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Then when rossi got hold of the bike in 2000, he and JB spent the winter changing it up and came back in 2001 with a far superior motorcycle.
That's stretching things a bit. Development in 2000 was led by Criville, and he was lost without Doohan to copy. Rossi certainly righted the ship in style, but if a bike two years removed from when Doohan last touched it isn't a far superior motorcycle then something would be seriously wrong. The 2006 Kawasakis would win races in 2004...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Nov 10 2006, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Unfortunately i havnt had much time for this recently, as my mind is fully consumed with excitement for the 2007 season, bring it on
March 10 will come soon enough but in the meantime I'll be speculating looking both forwards and backwards.

By the way people, I think a little more love for Agostini is due.

Sure, he rode the all conquering MV Augusta during an era when either his team mate finished second, or daylight did. But he still had to the ride the thing. (And deal with what must have been seething envy from every other rider )

Sure when he went head to head with Hailwood, both on MV Augustas, he got soundly beaten--but that was his first full year in GPs!

And after the MV era, he did win another championship on a Yamaha--he probably wanted to prove to everyone that it was the rider and not the bike; must be an Italian thing...

I'm totally with sun here. Doohan tamed the NSR where no-one else could. He developed the big bang, then everyone copied it. He went back to the screamer, everyone copied him again, and fell off in their droves as a result. Yamaha and Suzuki guys were even seen at the end of straights with microphones hooked up to oscilliscopes to try and work out what firing order the Honda had. All this when 500's ran on 100+ octane aviation fuel, NOT the tame unleaded fuelled NSR that Rossi rode. Mick complained publicly that that took away his edge of having superior throttle control. To do all this in the midst of horrific injuries makes Mick the all-time hero of the modern era. It's a good point, that the riders who dominated the 500 era were almost exclusively from dirt track backgrounds so I'd have to agree that Hayden would most likely be right at home on a '92 NSR.
And the older guys, Ago, Hailwood, Surtees, Hartle etc...those guys were legends, crap tyres, crap suspension, drum brakes, balls of steel!
Bob McIntyre first lapped the IOM at 100mph average in 1957, My God, I sound like my Dad

Well, i've really enoyed reading your responses, its great to be able to throw these idea around and see what people come up with. I feel slightly like i have been put in my place, but its all good. I'd rather discuss with knowledgable people than talk at a .......

I definately think after further thought that hayden could have been right at home on the 500's given the american domination of the last 25 years or so. Its great to see an american winning again, and i am definately excited to see whos the next promising young rider to come over.

Any ways, its dificult to compare riders of different eras, but still fun. i geuss its best leave them in there own time, afterall things are very different, but its also quite similar.

I think rossi is the greatest rider of all time, but i'd say doohan is close, and i dont think people mention freddie spencer enough.