Positives ONLY regarding DMG's AMA

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 18 2009, 10:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps, it might be a good idea to make a thread that doesn't just point out the negatives but perhaps one dedicated to ONLY positives <regarding DMG's AMA>. I certainly see allot of positive: a reaching out to new brands, enticing a new fan base <albeit Nascar fans?>, attempting to bring parity of machine to the racing <with the exception of the Buell>, etc.

Can you guys help me with this? (seriously, c'mon guys, lets look at the positive side too).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 18 2009, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Can you guys help me with this? (seriously, c'mon guys, lets look at the positive side too).


There is none that i have found. Sorry

You have factory teams from Suzuki and Yamaha, as well as supported team's from Aprilia, Honda, Ducati, H-D, and Kawasaki. About as good as it would get.

You have Mat Mladin. Like him or not, but he is the best talent in all the series by leaps and bounds right now.

Riders get more money.. I cant remember the exact rules.. but $5,000 a pop for quite a few people.. i think the only thing I didnt like was that they tapered off to $5,000 after 3rd place or so.. but then like the next 10-15 people get 5,000 each, no incentive to fight for a higher place at some point

Anyway, can't be mad at riders risking their lives making more money, and in theory it'd mean more people fighting for positions that pay higher.

1. Grids are full
2. Costs have been cut
3. Equipment parity improved
4. AMA superbikes are actually production bikes. You can buy every part on a AMA superbike, unlike WSBK which is motogp with a production chassis and engine block. Still love WSBK but if you can't build it in your garage, it ain't production.
5. DMG/Jordan have already attracted a few new sponsors (US National Guard, etc.)
6. Riders can easily have their own teams (like Holden Racing, TigerTeam, Celtic Racing, Aussie Dave, AllStoneArmy.com)
7. TV production quality is improved
8. Rider pay should be on the incline
9. Riders and team owners all over the world can look at the AMA and think "If I have the talent, the crew, and the sponsors, I can win. The factory can't decide whether or not I win."
10. In theory, 1 team can run multiple different bikes since none of the parts are supplied directly from the manufacturers. So 1 rider could opt for a Fireblade while the other rider opts for an R1. Maybe not but it seems possible.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 18 2009, 07:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Grids are full
2. Costs have been cut
3. Equipment parity improved
4. AMA superbikes are actually production bikes. You can buy every part on a AMA superbike, unlike WSBK which is motogp with a production chassis and engine block. Still love WSBK but if you can't build it in your garage, it ain't production.
5. DMG/Jordan have already attracted a few new sponsors (US National Guard, etc.)
6. Riders can easily have their own teams (like Holden Racing, TigerTeam, Celtic Racing, Aussie Dave, AllStoneArmy.com)
7. TV production quality is improved
8. Rider pay should be on the incline
9. Riders and team owners all over the world can look at the AMA and think "If I have the talent, the crew, and the sponsors, I can win. The factory can't decide whether or not I win."
10. In theory, 1 team can run multiple different bikes since none of the parts are supplied directly from the manufacturers. So 1 rider could opt for a Fireblade while the other rider opts for an R1. Maybe not but it seems possible.

Stiggy Honda has pretty much done that with fantastic results from Ant West in Supersport and Leon Haslam in Superbike. Has contended for podiums in both classes this season already with many parts being more stock based that racing based.

AMA has already had great pay for the riders. I would bet that the factory hired riders make more in AMA than BSB, and some factory backed WSB riders. Hell, Mladin is probably the highest paid Suzuki rider in the world.

I'm posituve DMG sucks

I am thinking........................................................................
.............................. Sorry mate, I tried.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 18 2009, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...
Good post lex.

Ok, c'mon guys the rest of you can't think of anything POSITIVE (compared to previous AMA product)? I want to hear from Mr. Shupe, Johnny, Boots, Ooost, Povol, Sacky, Frosty, L8Braker, Noodle, (hell even you can chime in Tom since you pretend to know something about the AMA).

Well I look at it this way, its motorcycle racing period.
I seem to remember when the SX/MX series took off in a different direction and there was some scuttlebutt related to that, but that series has been doing really well and watching the Daytona Supercross live this year on Speed was great.
Since I live smack dab in the middle of NASCAR country I can tell you those folks are a little nervous, NASCAR insiders know their series is in decline, heck you can see that by looking at the ratings, and it’s not just because of the global economic crisis were in, that series has been in decline for the last couple of years, and it’s because they alienated their core audience, closing tracks that were the cornerstone to Southern racing roots from which it derived, one chassis cars, rules being created out of thin air…and on and on. Ok I’m getting off topic. Where am I going with this? Simple, DMG has the knowledge, connections, and money (at the moment) to put motorcycle road racing into living rooms all across the United States. That’s what it’s all about folks. With increased interest it’s not impossible to think revenue generated would lead to new road race specific tracks being built, and some older tracks being made safer for motorcycle racing. With change comes resistance. I’m hoping the current fans can be patient enough to get thru this period so that the series can grow and hopefully become more mainstream here in the United States.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L8Braker @ Mar 19 2009, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well I look at it this way, its motorcycle racing period.
I seem to remember when the SX/MX series took off in a different direction and there was some scuttlebutt related to that, but that series has been doing really well and watching the Daytona Supercross live this year on Speed was great.
Since I live smack dab in the middle of NASCAR country I can tell you those folks are a little nervous, NASCAR insiders know their series is in decline, heck you can see that by looking at the ratings, and it’s not just because of the global economic crisis were in, that series has been in decline for the last couple of years, and it’s because they alienated their core audience, closing tracks that were the cornerstone to Southern racing roots from which it derived, one chassis cars, rules being created out of thin air…and on and on. Ok I’m getting off topic. Where am I going with this? Simple, DMG has the knowledge, connections, and money (at the moment) to put motorcycle road racing into living rooms all across the United States. That’s what it’s all about folks. With increased interest it’s not impossible to think revenue generated would lead to new road race specific tracks being built, and some older tracks being made safer for motorcycle racing. With change comes resistance. I’m hoping the current fans can be patient enough to get thru this period so that the series can grow and hopefully become more mainstream here in the United States.
When DMG took over AMA road racing,i was over the moon with anticipation of what someone with marketing skills could do with racing in America.That was short lived from the first time RE opened his mouth.Instead of moving the series in line with the rest of the world,he went the total opposite direction and told everyone that didnt like,tough ....,what the .... do you know? Bike racing IS bike racing and what we have now is something i can spend a 5th of the money to go see at a WERA event.Putting the best proffesional riders your country has to offer on stock bikes is not the answer. It would be like Moto Gp adapting WSBK rules or F1 adopting Indy Car rules.If they did either,would you go watch?What would be the point! I have no doubt that Sportbike is going to have great racing,it always did when it was run under a different name,thats not the issue.It almost feels like DMG is creating an atmosphere to puposely downgrade the series and the riders as to assure that they have no options on the world scene and he can keep them around forever, ala Nascar. I want the AMA to be a stepping stone to world greatness for our riders,he doesnt. Dumb down the machines, denigrate the riders and pay them to be your sock puppetts.Sound Familiar

In keeping the objective of this thread in mind, I will post.

I think getting more riders interested will help. I will openly admit I don't know the class names anymore but the 600 class that is full of privateers is a great opportunity for young riders to prove themselves. I always thought that there wasn't a class for young privateers to get a shot in the old AMA as I thought the factory efforts gave riders in Supersport and Superstock an advantage in having their own dedicated techs, which is just not possible for true privateers. This should be a good way to uncover young talent that may have gone unnoticed otherwise.

Although I hate NASCAR, they know how to market their sport. I'll watch it for about a half hour or so because it is technically a form of racing (just barely) but when I watch it I wonder how others get so wrapped up in it. There is passing but passing on ovals does not give near the same excitement of an open wheel car lining up a pass on the brakes on a road course. No comparison. Passing in NASCAR is like watching people drive on the freeway. And there aren't that many crashes and I don't think there are too many fans who watch entire races for a few crashes. So I wonder, how on earth is this sport so popular?

They must have some marketing genius hidden somewhere. And that is the silver lining in this whole thing. If they can somehow get this right, or they could get it wrong (true fans are the only ones who will know the difference and if the series becomes NASCAR-popular no one will give a .... what we think), it doesn't matter; they have the potential to make road racing in this country immensely popular.

Presently everything appears as a step backwards. These massive changes can be a turn in the positive direction for viewership or the negative if core fans leave. Currently the latter seems to be happening given the idiotic TV coverage.

The concept in Daytona Sportbike is an interesting one, but clearly the rules right now are not being followed or being fudged to "help" out certain teams. I hope they are doing this for parity sake and not to give a certain manufacturer an advantage so they can win (ie - what many think is happening with Buell). I do like the idea behind this class, capping it at horsepower but allowing lots of different engine/bike configs, a sort of open class so to speak with limitations, but it should not be considered the Premier class as DMG are trying to make it out to be.

I personally would like to see the Superbike and Supersport classes be in place and mirror exactly the way WSBK is doing it (scoring, superpole, etc). Keep these as the core and then also have a rookies 600cc and the Daytona Open whatever class. I believe following the WSBK format would allow the factories to get involved with more teams and also attract other riders from outside the country as BSB does now. IMHO AMA is a national series, it should feed a World series with riders. However, I don't know how all the money flows, the US market is a big one, and obviously guys like Mladin are sticking around for possible such reasons (ie - the AMA pays more).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Mar 19 2009, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When DMG took over AMA road racing,i was over the moon with anticipation of what someone with marketing skills could do with racing in America.That was short lived from the first time RE opened his mouth.Instead of moving the series in line with the rest of the world,he went the total opposite direction and told everyone that didnt like,tough ....,what the .... do you know? Bike racing IS bike racing and what we have now is something i can spend a 5th of the money to go see at a WERA event.Putting the best proffesional riders your country has to offer on stock bikes is not the answer. It would be like Moto Gp adapting WSBK rules or F1 adopting Indy Car rules.If they did either,would you go watch?What would be the point! I have no doubt that Sportbike is going to have great racing,it always did when it was run under a different name,thats not the issue.It almost feels like DMG is creating an atmosphere to puposely downgrade the series and the riders as to assure that they have no options on the world scene and he can keep them around forever, ala Nascar. I want the AMA to be a stepping stone to world greatness for our riders,he doesnt. Dumb down the machines, denigrate the riders and pay them to be your sock puppetts.Sound Familiar

I can't say I fault anyone for feeling that DMG are taking an iron-fisted approach. A lot of the NASCAR garnishments they have bestowed upon the sport have been flatly rejected by fans and participants alike. The rider's look uncomfortable in post race interviews b/c they spend more time giving sponsor advertisements than they do talking about the race.

However, I'm uncertain as to why people think it is necessary to copy other series. What happened did we fall asleep and wake up Japanese/Korean? (I'm taking a shot at the manufacturing culture not the races)

If DMG had decided to adopt WSBK rules, the series would look exactly like BSB--flat and contracting with all of the best talent gone. If you adopt WSBK rules you paint yourself into a corner. Furthermore, why would anyone race in the AMA if they have the exact same competitive environment as WSBK? Everything else but the rules package would be inferior so no one would have incentive to race in the U.S. and all of the best U.S. talent would definitely be lost overseas.

Instead, the current AMA rules should be developing the exact opposite. All of the overseas talent looking for a championship to bolster their career can get a cheap start with extremely low barriers to entry in the AMA. Everyone in the AMA has access to the best bike, whether or not you can make it work for you is the question.

The performance will come in time; especially as they improve safety at different circuits.

A lot of the hub-bub is coming from people who are whining for the sake of whining. With the current rules, if you see that 70% of the grid is Suzuki's, you don't think "wow suzuki is spending a ton". Instead you think "damn, that's the bike everyone wants to be on" (obviously you have to look at contingency money but extra satellite bikes is still compelling evidence). Since copious amounts of modifications are outlawed, Suzuki America actually have some leverage to convince Suzuki Japan to produce a bike they can compete with since AMA-only production parts could be swapped out in WSBK. Do American Suzuki look thrilled?

No. They just wanna ..... and continue playing with their prototype parts factory.

Mladin: "Whaa Whaa Whaa! I don't like superpole, I don't like plugging the sponsors! Whaaa!" Mat Mladin is an AMA institution. If he had one lick of sense, he'd start his own team, hire away a few of his Suzuki crew, hire a few hot umbrella girls, and go racing for himself. Every advertisement he pitched, every race he won, every fan he impressed would put money directly into his own pocket. He could race in hot pink leathers that said "fck Roger Edmonson" down the side. Does he looked thrilled?

He should be, but he has no vision.

Positive only huh?
I just read today that Blink 182 is getting back together. ....... Great News.
Sadly though, Bradley Nowell is still dead and there will never be another Sublime album.
Ok back to the positives.
First off there is racing. Three months ago we wern't even sure there was going to be any and if there was it could have been a bunch of guys nobody's ever heard of or a manufacturers series with no TV rights. I'm pretty grateful that in this economy and with the AMA/ DMG turmoil they have put out a product that for the most part is at least equal to the .... we have been fed for years. The good thing here is that there is more potential for upside. The old AMA structure was failing and had no future. There was no upside to that series. First and foremost the AMA is a business.
How would it be possible to continue upon the path it was going down without eventually imploding.
The sportbike class on paper has the potential to be some great racing. Certainly better that before. Isn't that why we watch? I really don't care what size the bikes are or if the lap times are slower. I never cared when superbike was a 750 class and there were liter bikes on the road.
I'm more interested in seeing the guys with the most talent squeezing the most out of whatever they are riding. Besides how much longer before they would have to restrict the 1000's anyway on American tracks. Certainly within the next 5 years. Daytona already had to with the Superbikes for the last 5 or 6 years. For those that don't know the Superbike layout only runs on 1 of the bankings.
The tires were generating too much heat because they were running at 180mph on the banking and still spinning. After a couple of catastrophic tire failures they decided to cut out one of the banks and run a shorter track.
The road to MotoGp is soon to be through a 600cc bike on a Moto 2. So to say it isn't a stepping stone to the next level may not be true. To WSBK maybe not, but consider this. Only 1 rider in this decade has gone from AMA to WSBK and on to MotoGP.
I love how the supersport class is run in conjunction withe the other classes. Previously the only way we would ever get to even hear the names of tomorrows talent was to scan the back of RRW to see the results one of the dozens of classes run all over the US or to wait until the Young Guns issue came out. Now we have a group of kids that will be front and center every race weekend. We will get to know the names and be able to moniter their progress every weekend. When they graduate to the Sportbike class it will no longer be in the dark as to who they are or how good they are.
Look at the Red Bull Rookies cup racers last year. Just with that minimal exposure of a couple of races most of us already know who they are and are tracking their progress. Think about all the names we will know at the end of this year after 16 rounds.
Am I being overly optimistic? I don't think so. I don't like a lot of things about what has happenned but I will never judge something until I see what it is capable of. I say ..... about the rules or what ever bothers you but at least give it a chance to succeed before you doom it to failure.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 19 2009, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>(hell even you can chime in Tom since you pretend to know something about the AMA).

Funny you should say that, i've just been catching up on the threads here and trying to suss out the AMA superbike bike scene for myself because i haven't been following the off season. If anyone here fancies helping me out, i'd really appreciate it. I know it might be off topic, but a PM would be fine if any of you want to keep it out of here.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 20 2009, 09:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Funny you should say that, i've just been catching up on the threads here and trying to suss out the AMA superbike bike scene for myself because i haven't been following the off season. If anyone here fancies helping me out, i'd really appreciate it. I know it might be off topic, but a PM would be fine if any of you want to keep it out of here.

I've actually taken some innitiative and read the AMA website, so i've got a general idea now, despite the fact that none of the weights were in metric so meant nothing to me.

The questions i have more specifically now, are:

What is actually done to keep the Buell's and Aprilias from running away from the 600's? I would presume they'd be quite a lot quicker, and i don't see why aprilia can run a litre while Ducati can't.

Which teams in which classes are 'factory supported' if any?

How are the lap times expected to compare to conventional WSBK and WSS spec bikes?

Exactly how bad is the TV coverage? It's still on Speed right? And to anyone in the UK, are motors TV keeping up with it?

Cheers

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 20 2009, 05:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've actually taken some innitiative and read the AMA website, so i've got a general idea now, despite the fact that none of the weights were in metric so meant nothing to me.

The questions i have more specifically now, are:

What is actually done to keep the Buell's and Aprilias from running away from the 600's? I would presume they'd be quite a lot quicker, and i don't see why aprilia can run a litre while Ducati can't.

Which teams in which classes are 'factory supported' if any?

How are the lap times expected to compare to conventional WSBK and WSS spec bikes?

Exactly how bad is the TV coverage? It's still on Speed right? And to anyone in the UK, are motors TV keeping up with it?

Cheers

At this time,the riding ability of Ben Bostrom,Josh, Hayes and a few others and the inability of the Buell to stay together is whats keeping the 600's up front.Its only been 1 race, so its hard to say where they really are. At Daytona,the Buell had a visible performance advantage and had the thing held together,i believe Eslick would have won easily aftewr sand bagging the first 190 miles and pulling slowly away in the last 10 as to not make it look so obvious.Its a testement to how bad ... the jap 600's are though.Tom, those are the same questions true race fans keep asking and there is no answers from DMG. In the old days {last year] Formula extreme allowed Air cooled twins up to 1200 cc against 600's. Liquid cooles twins were limited to 850 cc regardless of the maunufacturer. This is just one of the things that has fans in an uproar,Ducati is a liquid cooled Vtwin and its allowed 850,Aprilia is a liquid cooled Vtwin and its allowed 1000, Buell is a liquid cooled Vtwin and its allowed 1125.Its like they took every bike to the track,had someone ride it,timed the laps and said,these bikes are similar in performance,lets throw them in a pot and see what happens.Here is where it gets dicey.The 600's were still to good so they start making concessions,not to Aprilia or Ducati, the American bike.The Vtwins were supposed to race at 385 lbs compared to 365 for the 600's.Only the Buell got a weight exemption and was allowed to race at 365. Only the Buell was allowed after market suspension parts, full race Showa stuff, if they promised to make a few for production with those components on a stock bike. Air Box modifications,wheels etc;. It became obvious that the fix was in and the real fan knew it. If the Buell had won the Daytona 200 with the advantages they had been given,their would be anarchy,fans and race teams alike.Thats the dumbing down we talk about,
dont push someone to excel and get better, GIVE them what they wont work for and restrict the ones who will. Kind of like society in a microcosm

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 20 2009, 02:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The questions i have more specifically now, are:

What is actually done to keep the Buell's and Aprilias from running away from the 600's? I would presume they'd be quite a lot quicker, and i don't see why aprilia can run a litre while Ducati can't.
See Povol above (i'm assuming he is right about waivers for Buell, not sure about Aprillia though). My guess its based on HP.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Which teams in which classes are 'factory supported' if any?

In Superbike, "factory" Yamaha & Suzuki only the rest only "supported", in Daytona Sportbike, factory Kawasaki only (as far as I know), "supported" Honda, Aprillia, Buell, Yamaha, Suzuki.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>How are the lap times expected to compare to conventional WSBK and WSS spec bikes?

Slower. I don't think there is much of an expectation.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Exactly how bad is the TV coverage? It's still on Speed right? And to anyone in the UK, are motors TV keeping up with it?

Still on Speed. The coverage basically exists in the form of showing races only on a two week delay. There is a new show called AMA Pro Racing Prime Time on Saturday night, it premiers this Saturday for the first time ever, so nobody knows.

So I would say the coverage SUCKS (even without seeing the show yes, simply because its two weeks late). Now keep in mind, they will only show Superbike, Daytona Sportbike races. It appears they will only show highlights of supersport (rookies class) and MotoGT 1&2 (........ class). Oh, and I'm assuming they will also show highlights of superpole.

Highlights are cool, but ask yourself, where would the sports people like be if all we got were highlights TWO weeks after the event?


Anyway Tom, this is waaay off topic, this was suppose to be a 'positives about DMG's AMA' and you just highjacked the thread you ........

Now that you've been updated, what positives do you see from your survey of the AMA website? (BTW, not sure if you're visiting the right website, its official name is AMA Pro Racing. (amaproracing.com)