Portimao test

warthog1 · Mar 12, 2023

Well Ducati is looking very good here and in particular Pecco.
Yamaha and Fab were struggling but found something on Sunday.
Ktm off the pace and MM stating Honda only have the pace for 5th to 10th.
We will see what happens in a couple of weeks.
Can't wait to watch some racing again!

michaelm · Mar 13, 2023

Yes all the equalisation stuff to make the field more competitive seems likely to result in a second very dominant year for a single manufacturer.

Not sure what is going on with KTM, one would think they have the technical and financial resources to be more competitive than tearly indications suggest. Their customer bike last year was particularly woeful.

MichaelBolton · Mar 13, 2023

If Marc wants to win the championship this season, he has to do it Mir style like in 2020. Hondas looking dreadful and out of ideas.

michaelm said:
Not sure what is going on with KTM,

I'm willing to bet that the steel frame is the element at fault here, but KTM execs are to squareheaded and prideful to ditch it. The in-house suspensions too. The bike will remain forever flawed until they fix these things.

Havey · Mar 13, 2023

I do wonder how long it will be before it is a "Moto GP Drivers Championship", with all the bikes supplied by Ducati, like in Moto3. just to keep it fairer.

Bern1 · Mar 17, 2023

MichaelBolton said:
If Marc wants to win the championship this season, he has to do it Mir style like in 2020. Hondas looking dreadful and out of ideas.

MM doing it Mir 2020 style not going to happen after all this time on the edge.

Bern1 · Mar 17, 2023

I subscribed to the MotoGP feed yet again, after I tell myself every year at the end of the season that I’m done with it.

Despite all the equalization, the politics, the money and the woke drama, it’s still the best road racers in the world going up against each other.

Can’t wait for it to start!

evo9 · Mar 17, 2023

Bern1 said:
I subscribed to the MotoGP feed yet again, after I tell myself every year at the end of the season that I’m done with it.

Despite all the equalization, the politics, the money and the woke drama, it’s still the best road racers in the world going up against each other.

Can’t wait for it to start!

I've had a subscription with them for the last 13+ years with auto renew. I turned off the auto renew last year seeing that I'm paying for world ducati cup. If the first 4 races and 1-4 positions are all ducati on the podium, there will be no subscription for me this year. I'll read the websites and not waste time watching. This is reminding me of the Flammini brothers world superbike era, "waste of time in my book".

Bern1 · Mar 17, 2023

evo9 said:
I've had a subscription with them for the last 13+ years with auto renew. I turned off the auto renew last year seeing that I'm paying for world ducati cup. If the first 4 races and 1-4 positions are all ducati on the podium, there will be no subscription for me this year. I'll read the websites and not waste time watching. This is reminding me of the Flammini brothers world superbike era, "waste of time in my book".

I hear ya but it's not Ducati's fault they built a great bike and made it available to a lot of teams.

It's no different than watching Doohan steamroll through the field for 5 straight years on a Honda. That got old too, but I watched it anyway.

Bern1 · Mar 17, 2023

evo9 said:
This is reminding me of the Flammini brothers world superbike era, "waste of time in my book".

Yeah, well that was outright cheating, allowing a larger displacement through politics for those "disadvantaged" engines.

I didn't watch that either.

I know Ducati has a huge influence but I don't know that they are doing anything that flagrant with the rules.

My "I don't know" is key here though. I really don't.

michaelm · Mar 18, 2023

Bern1 said:
I hear ya but it's not Ducati's fault they built a great bike and made it available to a lot of teams.

It's no different than watching Doohan steamroll through the field for 5 straight years on a Honda. That got old too, but I watched it anyway.

I like to think (perhaps wistfully)Mick had something to do with the Honda dominance though. As I recall they ran 5 identical Hondas one year, which didn't stop Mick dominating, and they were also in the habit of giving Mick's settings to the other Honda riders after practice, which as I recall didn't best please Mick but still didn't stop him. He is on the record as saying that he saw one of his major roles was stopping the Honda engineers from "improving" the bike. He was also reputed to have gone for the screamer engine at one stage not because he considered it to be necessarily intrinsically faster but because he didn't think the other Honda riders could ride it.

evo9 · Mar 18, 2023

Bern1 said:
Yeah, well that was outright cheating, allowing a larger displacement through politics for those "disadvantaged" engines.

I didn't watch that either.

I know Ducati has a huge influence but I don't know that they are doing anything that flagrant with the rules.

My "I don't know" is key here though. I really don't.

Considering who owns them "diesel gate software manipulation" we'll never know. But what is know is the constant flirting with the outer limits of the rule book.

Bern1 · Mar 18, 2023

evo9 said:
Considering who owns them "diesel gate software manipulation" we'll never know. But what is know is the constant flirting with the outer limits of the rule book.

Isn’t flirting with the outer limits of the rule book just part of racing?

Sometimes you get away with one and sometimes you don’t.

Bern1 · Mar 18, 2023

michaelm said:
I like to think (perhaps wistfully)Mick had something to do with the Honda dominance though. As I recall they ran 5 identical Hondas one year, which didn't stop Mick dominating, and they were also in the habit of giving Mick's settings to the other Honda riders after practice, which as I recall didn't best please Mick but still didn't stop him. He is on the record as saying that he saw one of his major roles was stopping the Honda engineers from "improving" the bike. He was also reputed to have gone for the screamer engine at one stage not because he considered it to be necessarily intrinsically faster but because he didn't think the other Honda riders could ride it.

I know you are a Doohan fan. I am not, though I admire the man as a racer and the qualities that made him excel.

However, I was simply referring to the dominance as a “borifying” factor in a season, which makes watching not as compelling as a fair, competitive field.

Quite simply, racing has often come down to manufacturers really wanting the title and how much money they are willing to spend on both engineering and riding talent to get it.

Somethings never change, though the names and liveries may do so.

michaelm · Mar 19, 2023

Bern1 said:
I know you are a Doohan fan. I am not, though I admire the man as a racer and the qualities that made him excel.

However, I was simply referring to the dominance as a “borifying” factor in a season, which makes watching not as compelling as a fair, competitive field.

Quite simply, racing has often come down to manufacturers really wanting the title and how much money they are willing to spend on both engineering and riding talent to get it.

Somethings never change, though the names and liveries may do so.

I am very definitely a Doohan fan, and posted as same on another forum at one time.

I am mainly having a go at Dorna, their equalisation and cost saving measures appear to have resulted in one marque being entirely dominant and Honda and Yamaha needing to re-design their engines to be competitive. I doubt even Quartararo or MM can over-ride their bikes to competitiveness. Perhaps it is (marginally)) better than a decade where only 4 riders on factory Hondas or Yamahas could win a race, and Quartararo and MM probably would be competitive on Aprilias.

I am not anti-Ducati, to the contrary, but they were given a leg up to get to where they were as well as Gigi being a genius, and in these equalisation formulas. as with F1, if a manufacturer gets an advantage it is hard imo for others to claw it back.

michaelm · Mar 19, 2023

to get where they are I meant.

Mick D · Mar 19, 2023

I'm happy enough to see egg on the Japanese manufacturers faces.

It is ....... prototype racing and pushing the boundaries is what it SHOULD be about.

They are either be motivated to get better or leave.

Interesting.

evo9 · Mar 19, 2023

Mick D said:
I'm happy enough to see egg on the Japanese manufacturers faces.

It is ....... prototype racing and pushing the boundaries is what it SHOULD be about.

They are either be motivated to get better or leave.

Interesting.

All of that is one big moronic statement. When it was free reign with manufacture specific ECU, software & choice of tires. Where was the Europeans in what was the most advance option time period in motogp?

IF "It is ....... prototype racing and pushing the boundaries is what it SHOULD be about" as you put it. Where are the options for the manufacture specific ECU, software & choice of tires? It is prototype racing and pushing the boundaries is what it SHOULD be about right?

michaelm · Mar 19, 2023

evo9 said:
All of that is one big moronic statement. When it was free reign with manufacture specific ECU, software & choice of tires. Where was the Europeans in what was the most advance option time period in motogp?

IF "It is ....... prototype racing and pushing the boundaries is what it SHOULD be about" as you put it. Where are the options for the manufacture specific ECU, software & choice of tires? It is prototype racing and pushing the boundaries is what it SHOULD be about right?

i wouldn't disagree with Mick D to that extent, but I think you and I agree broadly.

Ducati are hardly the artisanal equipe/plucky underdog they were back in the day, they are now owned by VW Audi and probably also have the richest sponsorship on the grid.

Ducati got concessions at one stage due to poor performance, and iirc the spec ECU is from the manufacturer they were already using. Nakamoto foresaw all this when the spec ECU came in, hence him threatening the withdrawal of Honda, with the current Honda engine I strongly suspect designed around their bespoke software aided by the software between MM's ears. It is hardly cost saving if Yamaha or Honda need to design new engines, particularly in the current economic climate and with concerns about the actual climate bringing into question the future of internal combustion engines per se. With the current equalisation rules it is hard to peg back an opponent's advantage if they do steal a march, there was even an engine freeze for a couple of years as I recall. In F1 Mercedes, hardly at the beggar's end of things, seemed to manage to have a significant horsepower advantage for years, again with engine freezes etc affecting the ability of competitors to reach parity with them iirc.

p4p1 · Mar 20, 2023

michaelm said:
i wouldn't disagree with Mick D to that extent, but I think you and I agree broadly.

Ducati are hardly the artisanal equipe/plucky underdog they were back in the day, they are now owned by VW Audi and probably also have the richest sponsorship on the grid.

Ducati got concessions at one stage due to poor performance, and iirc the spec ECU is from the manufacturer they were already using. Nakamoto foresaw all this when the spec ECU came in, hence him threatening the withdrawal of Honda, with the current Honda engine I strongly suspect designed around their bespoke software aided by the software between MM's ears. It is hardly cost saving if Yamaha or Honda need to design new engines, particularly in the current economic climate and with concerns about the actual climate bringing into question the future of internal combustion engines per se. With the current equalisation rules it is hard to peg back an opponent's advantage if they do steal a march, there was even an engine freeze for a couple of years as I recall. In F1 Mercedes, hardly at the beggar's end of things, seemed to manage to have a significant horsepower advantage for years, again with engine freezes etc affecting the ability of competitors to reach parity with them iirc.

I totally agree Mick. The rules are such now that one wrong development route can set you back for years. If we are being honest, Honda haven't had a properly good bike since 2014, with the new rules and tyre change Marquez was able to adapt quickest but as a manufacturer, Ducati came on very well after the changes. They have made a huge investment in the sport and are now benefitting, so I have no issues or with them pushing the rules, it's their job.

Mick D · Mar 22, 2023

evo9 said:
All of that is one big moronic statement. When it was free reign with manufacture specific ECU, software & choice of tires. Where was the Europeans in what was the most advance option time period in motogp?

IF "It is ....... prototype racing and pushing the boundaries is what it SHOULD be about" as you put it. Where are the options for the manufacture specific ECU, software & choice of tires? It is prototype racing and pushing the boundaries is what it SHOULD be about right?

I concur that prototype racing should be done without, or with minimal rules. But that has NEVER been the case. So what we have always been left with is being creative within the rule-set of the era. The Japanese have lost their creativity. And seemingly their desire as well. If you think that's moronic, you haven't been paying attention.

Portimao test

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