Pedrosa, what do you think ?

so does dani have ... with himself

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kngadrok @ Jul 10 2008, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so does dani have ... with himself


Not sure, but I think some of the fans on this forum are suggesting he do so.

Sorry guys, I'm gonna get back on topic for a moment. (Yeah, I know, buzzy kill). But we can get back to talking about Doc's desires after this quick post.

Anyway, for Teo and Tom (and the rest who stick their heads in the sand and are waiting for a press release from HRC declaring they screwed up by designing a bike around Pedrosa). I found a interesting quote in the latest issue of Motorcyclist magazine.


The article was about exploring the question what technological advances in MotoGP bikes trickle down to consumer's bikes. Part of answering that question was to examine the bikes from head to toe and describe

This is a direct quote:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>"First impression is the RC212V (2007 bike) is very compact. Tiny, actually, as it was designed for Hayden's dwarf-like Spanish teammate, Dani Pedrosa." Motorcyclist August 08 page 82.


It appears I'm not the only one who thinks the 07 bike was 'DESIGNED' for Pedrosa. Keep in mind, I've read this many times before (not just here in a current issue), and I suspect so have many here on this forum, regardless though, people still refuse to believe it and stick their heads in the sand and stick to their bias opinion based on thin air.

Here is another interesting quote I found in the article. (It might apply more to the Hayden running out of fuel thread, but its relevant here too):

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>"Honda has launch control, traction control, and wheelie control, multiple engine maps, plus sophisticated electronics that keep tabs on how much fuel is being used and leans out the mixture to insure the 21-liter (5.46-gallon) tank has enough remaining to finish 120-kilometer (75-mile) Grand Prix. At Valencia, Pedrosa started off second and passed Stoner to win, while Hayden went into "control mode" to insure it finished. Where Hayden uses a lot of throttle and high-rpm power, Pedrosa gets by with less peak power, giving him an advantage in fuel economy." Motorcyclist August 08 pg. 82

This certainly isn't news to me. But when Hayden fans point this out, the Teo's, Tom's, Pinky's and the rest claim excuse making. This is just one article I found today, apart from the many I've come across, and have been posted here, yet when the lopsided parity between Honda riders is pointed out, they suddenly claim amnesia. They claim that Pedrosa is so much better without the condition that he has the benefit of design. In a prototype series like this, getting a bike designed to your unique characteristics is paramount.

But wait, there is more. Remember kids, these are NOT my words: (Hey Teo, do you think Nicky's mom has a job at Motorcyclist Mag?)

The article continues and describes the Honda's bike performance down the straight:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>"It was fast all right--Pedrosa clocked the highest trap speed of the weekend at 188.5 mph (Hayden's supposedly identical bike only went 184.5 mph)." Motorcyclist August 08 page 82

Like I said, I've read stuff like this before in various magazines and websites. Its out there and easily found (why wouldn't it be, it not exactly a mystery to most people who care to read). Now then, we Hayden fans point to these glaring issues, then its chalked up to just us making excuses, right? Its a common occurrence for me to read people point to the speed trap of Stoner's Ducati and claim an advantage, why then does it not apply to Pedrosa?


Here is the fact of the situation. Despite a few here refusing to believe what the rest of the unbiased MotoGP world knows, the reality is Pedrosa has the benefit of a bike designed around him. This contributes to his results. This development direction started well before Pedrosa had good winter testing results. To the contrary, he had good winter testing result becasue he was on a bike designed for him specifically. Hayden overcoming various challenges and winning a title did NOT detour HRC from their plan to benefit Peders. It is a mistake at best and blind foolishness at least to believe that some of the poor results are only because Hayden hasn't adapted. It is clear that some backward results in races (after qualifying high) are due to "control modes" electronic management and NOT poor rider performance by Hayden! This reality of "control mode" where the bike is essentially detuned while in the race is most always erroneously blamed on Hayden the rider not cutting it with pace. These types of performance challenges experienced by Hayden are NOT a priority to be addressed by HRC, and so the vicious cycle continues. The ignorant fans blames Hayden the rider and points to Pedrosa as superior, but fails to realize the reality of the racing environment each is experiencing. Now go back and read the quotes above, I didn't make them up. But they sure give credence to what I've been saying all along.

Teo/Tom & Co. would you like to try your SPIN skills?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 10 2008, 09:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It is a mistake at best and blind foolishness at least to believe that some of the poor results are only because Hayden hasn't adapted. It is clear that some backward results in races (after qualifying high) are due to "control modes" electronic management and NOT poor rider performance by Hayden! This reality of "control mode" where the bike is essentially detuned while in the race is most always erroneously blamed on Hayden the rider not cutting it with pace. These types of performance challenges experienced by Hayden are NOT a priority to be addressed by HRC, and so the vicious cycle continues. The ignorant fans blames Hayden the rider and points to Pedrosa as superior, but fails to realize the reality of the racing environment each is experiencing. Now go back and read the quotes above, I didn't make them up. But they sure give credence to what I've been saying all along.

Teo/Tom & Co. would you like to try your SPIN skills?

So in effect what you say is that Hayden should be on par with edwards or maybe slightly faster in most races?
If so I agree as that's the general pace he has been on since his second year in MotoGP.

Except from that, funny to see you using an journo written article as "proof" to all these points.
What's really amusing is how you continue to use "bias", "head in the sand", only missing the mindless cheerleaders.
Thing is, very few like Pedrosa, very few dislike Hayden and as for me I dislike HRC, but like Hondas as street bikes. Not much bias there is it? But were is your position there, no bias?
My opinion is that I strongly doubt the bike were designed around Pedrosa. I belive it's a much better fit for Pedrosa compared to Hayden but that's a different thing. Designed for smaller guys than hayden, but for slightly larger guys than Pedrosa. It's not an opinion that carry any bias, just common sense. We KNOW how Honda want the BIKE to win. To construct a bike around one rider would be against that philosophy. It would also be against lot's of other common sense parameters. Even without their "The bike win" obsession, why would they contruct a bike that only fit one person? It would be far too risky considering how often guys get's injured. They need a bike most riders can ride. Both to fit their philosophy and becouse it's common sense.

Your article quotes stink and you know it. NOW you want to use top speed as an indicator but a week ago the one holding the top speed were usually not the winner. It takes one good slipstream to surpass the difference quoted.
Fuel consumption: Well, Pedrosa has two things working for him, style and weight. And true, the pnumatic fuel consuption won't be top priority until a HRC championship contender has problems. I'd say that's pretty much business as usual. Just too bad it hurts Hayden.
Besides, HRC came with that press realese you say everyone is waiting for. It came last winter, admitting they got it wrong. Didn't you see that?

Hi Babel, It seems your willingness to disagree with all things surrounding Hayden’s plight clouds even the clearest of explanations to the contrary of your opinion. I guess we are doomed to argue despite the friendlier tone I have carried with you lately, oh well, I’m game.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 9 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So in effect what you say is that Hayden should be on par with edwards or maybe slightly faster in most races?
If so I agree as that's the general pace he has been on since his second year in MotoGP.



Not sure why you interjected Edwards here (your not going off topic are you, haha), I suppose you are trying to say something about them working in the shadow of the favored teammate. If so, then to answer your question, no, I expect Hayden to do much better than Edwards. No only to I expect it, but he has done it.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 9 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Except from that, funny to see you using an journo written article as "proof" to all these points.



When asking the boys I was debating whether the bike was designed for Pedrosa, they claimed there was no such evidence. I'm quoting this article to show them, and now you, that this is not a far fetched idea, as they claimed they didn’t know of such a thing. Neither you nor I can “prove” anything, but we can certainly point to industry insiders and read what they have to say on the subject. Apart from the principles themselves, as Hayden himself and HRC have admitted as much. But yet still, after all the documentation and reporting on the subject we still have people here saying no, it didn’t exist. Ok, well then how do they and you explain the plethora of accounts that point to this reality? All you got is, that’s not “proof”? Please man, make the debate challenging at least.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 9 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What's really amusing is how you continue to use "bias", "head in the sand", only missing the mindless cheerleaders. thing is, very few like Pedrosa, very few dislike Hayden and as for me I dislike HRC, but like Hondas as street bikes. Not much bias there is it? Ans still I strongly doubt the bike were designed around Pedrosa. I belive it's a much better fit for Pedrosa compared to Hayden but that's a different thing.


What is amusing Babel, is that after all the reported accounts from industry insiders, commentators, rider interviews, and HRC themselves, you still can write the sentence: “Ans still I strongly doubt the bike were designed around Pedrosa.” Well then, unlike you, I’m going with what the reports, interview of riders, and general consensus of those in the know have said about such designed development of the very specific 07 Honda bike. And you ask why I say “head in the sand”? Do you know what that idiom means. It means that despite what is accounted one still refuses to see it, hence head in sand. Here you are again given quotes that specifically say the bike was “designed for Pedrosa” and you think I’m impressed with your defiant pronouncement that ‘you’ “still…doubt” what they are saying? Haha. I suppose the taste of sand is much better than concededing to insiders (and many of them from all walks and nationalities in the sport) said about this subject. Who do you think you impress with such a defiant statement, certainly not me. So you must intend it to impress industry insiders who would be in a much better position to know what is truth. Like I said, I’m just quoting them, as I have done in other past threads, I suppose its up to people like Teo, Tom, you to say, ‘well you don’t believe it.’

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 9 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Besides, HRC came with that press realese this winter, admitting they got it wrong. Didn't you see that?

Yes, Babel, I know. I already said HRC admitted it; you must have missed that in my posts. Not surprised, you have a tendency of misreading and misinterpreting much of what is written.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 9 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your article quotes stink and you know it. NOW you want to use top speed as an indicator but a week ago the one holding the top speed were usually not the winner. It takes one good slipstream to surpass the difference quoted.
Fuel consumption: Well, Pedrosa has two things working for him, style and weight. And true, the pnumatic fuel consuption won't be top priority until a HRC championship contender has problems. I'd say that's pretty much business as usual. Just too bad it hurts Hayden.
Besides, HRC came with that press realese you say everyone is waiting for. It came last winter, admitting they got it wrong. Didn't you see that?

Babel, are you done editing and changing your posts?

Have you ever read on this forum by members like you that the superior speed carried by Stoner's Ducati had something to do with his result? Especially when it came to beating Rossi? I'm gonna assume you are going to say, yes. Well here is what is interesting, though I don't subscribe to this being the only performance parameter making the difference (unlike many who have claimed this an advantage for Stoner) I find it very telling that these same people never cite this for Pedrosa when talking about his teammate Hayden. Can it be because Pedrosa doesn't beat Rossi regularly so it doesn't matter to these specific type of fans? (You see where I'm going with this?) But yet, people like you who have cited and pointed to top speed (or are you going to go back and edit some of your posts from last year) don't cite this to be significant when it comes to Pedrosa vs Hayden. This is called a bias of double standard. Oh man.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 10 2008, 10:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Babel, are you done editing and changing your posts?

Have you ever read on this forum by members like you that the superior speed carried by Stoner's Ducati had something to do with his result? Especially when it came to beating Rossi? I'm gonna assume you are going to say, yes. Well here is what is interesting, though I don't subscribe to this being the only performance parameter making the difference (unlike many who have claimed this an advantage for Stoner) I find it very telling that these same people never cite this for Pedrosa when talking about his teammate Hayden. Can it be because Pedrosa doesn't beat Rossi regularly so it doesn't matter to these specific type of fans? (You see where I'm going with this?) But yet, people like you who have cited and pointed to top speed (or are you going to go back and edit some of your posts from last year) don't cite this to be significant when it comes to Pedrosa vs Hayden. This is called a bias of double standard. Oh man.

I'm done editing

Sure I think top speed matter, but more important, acceleration does witch again influence top speed.
But I never look at the lousy "session top speed" sheet as it says little to nothing. There were a discussion about this a few weeks ago were someone pointed out a small 2-4km/h difference between Rossi and Stoner. Turns out if you looked into the numbers Rossi had 1 lap where he was significantly faster then all the rest of his laps. Removing that lap made the true difference (without a perfect slip streaming) over 10km/h. Now that's numbers that can tell you soemthing, but when the journos look only at the session top speed it says little to nothing. I don't know the true difference in top speed between Pedrosa and Hayden, but it is on average probably slightly less than what you quoted. I have no problems recognize this and of course it's another place where Hayden looses out to Pedrosa due to the weight and size. I don't find it very controversial but I fail to see when it became my job to point it out to the world. That's your job, allthough I see how that's dificult for you

But my point is that you continously adapt your endless row of arguments to suit the current debate.
Last week the acceleration and top speed of the Ducati vere to no advantage for Stoner. This week you dig up articles to prove how top speed is yet another (unfair) advantage Pedrosa has over Hayden.
This is called a bias of double standard, and a little diapointing being you. Not because you don't use them often enough, but they are usually better hidden than this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>"It was fast all right--Pedrosa clocked the highest trap speed of the weekend at 188.5 mph (Hayden's supposedly identical bike only went 184.5 mph)." Motorcyclist August 08 page 82

Nice find junk..

I'd like them to add 40 pounds to Pedros bike, then lets see them run it again

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 10 2008, 10:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What is amusing Babel, is that after all the reported accounts from industry insiders, commentators, rider interviews, and HRC themselves, you still can write the sentence: “Ans still I strongly doubt the bike were designed around Pedrosa.” Well then, unlike you, I’m going with what the reports, interview of riders, and general consensus of those in the know have said about such designed development of the very specific 07 Honda bike. And you ask why I say “head in the sand”? Do you know what that idiom means. It means that despite what is accounted one still refuses to see it, hence head in sand. Here you are again given quotes that specifically say the bike was “designed for Pedrosa” and you think I’m impressed with your defiant pronouncement that ‘you’ “still…doubt” what they are saying? Haha. I suppose the taste of sand is much better than concededing to insiders (and many of them from all walks and nationalities in the sport) said about this subject. Who do you think you impress with such a defiant statement, certainly not me. So you must intend it to impress industry insiders who would be in a much better position to know what is truth. Like I said, I’m just quoting them, as I have done in other past threads, I suppose its up to people like Teo, Tom, you to say, ‘well you don’t believe it.’

When inteviewing riders and giving opinions and at the same time look at the differences between Hayden and Pedrosa it must be a very fine line between "being designed for" and "fit very well for". The bike IS designed for smaller riders so what I would like to see was that you could rationalize why Honda would design a bike for one specific rider. I argue why I think they didn't, just becuase it doesn't make sense to me. Let's see if you can make som sense into it.
And sorry Jumkie, articles like that doesn't prove ...., it's opnions just like ours. As I said, it's a fine line and while I really coudn't care less I just can't see how Honda could get them selves into leaving their philosophy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jul 10 2008, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nice find junk..

I'd like them to add 40 pounds to Pedros bike, then lets see them run it again
yeah ya know this would be cool to see if they would add some weight to the bikes of the superlight riders to try and make them more even. All the bikes have to have a specific displacement to make sure they are somewhat even. So why not? If they make you stay at a specific weight for just the bike why not make a combined weight to regulate this offset? It seems though that this would just not wind up happening so it would be intresting but highly unlikely. There are some that just want to have this little crappy attitutde, smart ... little prick of a take it up the ... from Puig win the title. Oh well I hope stoner kicks his ... this week. It should be a good race. I think it is on network TV for me this week. HD BABY!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jul 10 2008, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yeah ya know this would be cool to see if they would add some weight to the bikes of the superlight riders to try and make them more even. All the bikes have to have a specific displacement to make sure they are somewhat even. So why not? If they make you stay at a specific weight for just the bike why not make a combined weight to regulate this offset? It seems though that this would just not wind up happening so it would be intresting but highly unlikely.
Yeah that would be the first step toward making MotoGP as regulated and as gay as NASCAR in the states. As much as we all complain that "it isn't fair for this guy or that guy"....its the inconsistencies that lead to drama which lead to the entertainment value we all enjoy so much.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 10 2008, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah that would be the first step toward making MotoGP as regulated and as gay as NASCAR in the states. As much as we all complain that "it isn't fair for this guy or that guy"....its the inconsistencies that lead to drama which lead to the entertainment value we all enjoy so much.
It wouldn't make it Nascar unless they had restrictor plates, sec tire etc. This is just to solve the weight issue everyone talks about due to pedrosa being a smurf.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jul 10 2008, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is just to solve the weight issue everyone talks about due to pedrosa being a smurf.

Being smaller and lighter has both positive and negative impacts on the riding challanges faced by a rider.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 10 2008, 06:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Being smaller and lighter has both positive and negative impacts on the riding challanges faced by a rider.

That's very true. One negative challenge the microbes had to negotiate at assen were the chicane.
Both Pedrosa and Stoner had their hands full when changing over right/left. Stoner so much the he almost went down once, and pedrosa had problems making the exit right lap after lap in practise. Obviously they had to brute force the steering to a degree that they lost grip on the front and it skipped just as the suspension got unloaded while the others had more help from body weight.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jul 10 2008, 11:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It wouldn't make it Nascar unless they had restrictor plates, sec tire etc. This is just to solve the weight issue everyone talks about due to pedrosa being a smurf.
Oh of course, but to me adding ANY rule or technological 'penalty' is just another way that corporate 'suits' try to level playing fields and end up making the sport just as boring as a conference room full of sales projections.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 10 2008, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Being smaller and lighter has both positive and negative impacts on the riding challanges faced by a rider.
Totally true, but you could argue that they don't necessarily cancel each other out to zero. My contention would be that a guy like Pedrosa sees far greater benefits from being small then he suffers for.

A team player as well, feel the love...3858:Hayden_0..._2014_AN.jpg]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 10 2008, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Totally true, but you could argue that they don't necessarily cancel each other out to zero. My contention would be that a guy like Pedrosa sees far greater benefits from being small then he suffers for.

True, and to what degree it cancel out or not will become a raging flame war here and on any MotoGP forum if Pedrosa win the title. So far Pedrosa has not convinced me that he has a decisive advantage but as the rules changes he seems to get more advantages with smaller capacity bikes and less fuel. Maybe the time has come to put a minimum weight for the complete package but it's hard to find the right figure. We do agree that the smaller riders strugle with their own problems so IMO it would be unfair if the minimum weight wold be set at a level where everyone get inside. Without a minimum bike weight it would create another turn on the cost too. Maybe what they need is both bike weight minimum and a total minimum?

lets just revert to the 990 and be done with it

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kngadrok @ Jul 10 2008, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>lets just revert to the 990 and be done with it
yep. 990-'s were mens bikes not jockey bikes

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 9 2008, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>hahaha.....as I was typing I was like "....I shouldn't type '.......' I should type '........'..." but naturally what did I choose?........now at least I know where all you .... lovers minds are at?




lol lol...where the hell did you guys find that ........lol lol...that's ...... hilarious!

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