Pedrosa possible champion??

yamaka46 said:

Talpa has obviously riled you enough to cause you to re-set your reality into a different base than 10

If, in hypothetical land, Stoner had not been taken out by Rossi, and then Stoner had gone on to win the race he'd have had 25 more points than he ended up with in Jerez. That is the maximum he could have lost due to Rossi, mathematically as far as I can see.



I assume that the extra 5 points you are claiming come from expecting that Lorenzo would have finished second and only gained 20 points. Why not go the whole hog and surmise that if Rossi had taken out Lorenzo then Stoner would be 50 points ahead and therefore Rossi cost him 50 points by torpedoing him and not Lorenzo??

Also, as this is hypothetical land, maybe someone else would have torpedoed Stoner later in the race, maybe he would have made a mistake and crashed (lots did) and he'd still have ended up with nil points, or maybe he'd have finished and not won. 25 points is the max haul from a weekend and that's all anyone can claim to have been lost due to Rossi's error.



I would also take you to task regarding catching Lorenzo. He has a 20 point gap to Lorenzo (45 points versus 25) and that would mean him winning 4 races in order to catch Lorenzo assuming Lorenzo finishes second in those four races.

Personally, I think he will win the title this year regardless of the current points standing.



But I have been known to be wrong

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If stoner wins and lorenzo finishes second he has 50 points and lorenzo has 40, as opposed to 25 against 45 now, which is 30 points net difference, but perhaps I was unclear that I was referring to him retrieving this (potential) position rather than lorenzo's current lead. I don't think him winning is all that presumptuous either seeing he was fastest in the warm-up by some margin, ahead of lorenzo who won, and very far ahead of the eventually second-placed pedrosa on the same bike and tyres at the time of the incident; both riders who were ahead of him at that time, momentarily in the case of the second rider, crashed of their own volition, and he appeared to be riding so as not to crash like them. This was also a race in which he possibly had a bike advantage against lorenzo (and rossi for that matter) which he may not have later in the year.



FWIW I am specifically annoyed with talpa, not other rossi fans or even rossi himself. Regard me as intolerant if you like; you are correct that snide remarks about stoner's "luck" / defeat in mind games/need for excuses/need to cope with adversary (presumably meaning adversity) in this context did rile me, but not to the extent of being arithmetically challenged .

Tekniqs said:

I simply cited that particular incident as an example since it occurred just a year ago. You have your own belief on this topic, and I'm not here to try and convince you to the contrary. And I'm not saying that Rossi is the only one that way, I think most top riders on the grid is like that.

As for your assumptions in your second paragraph, do you have you have sources of me posting stoner fell off in those races because of Rossi? Or how about me posting that he wasn't really sick? Or calling stoner washed up? What is it with this forum and placing people into categories? You can't be a fan of Rossi and not be considered as a bopper, or as an acolyte in the church of tavulia as you put it. Stoner fans are boners, etc. Probably why discussions turn into stupid name calling

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Agree, which is why I largely try to steer away from it, and apologies if you felt affronted by my post. We all categorise ourselves to an extent - if you are that concerned, then try a different avatar or don't advertise your preference for a rider. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be free to do so, or that you should be pilloried for jumping on the bandwagon liking Rossi, but don't object to categorisation when ultimately you categorise yourself. I didn't say that you specifically posted that Casey was 'washed up' - although the validity of his illness was questioned, and you most definitely opined that he was affected by the pressure exerted by Vale, which is why I thought it odd that you are adamant that such pressure over the course of a season is fallacious.



Returning to the OP, (and I was responsible for deviating from that), it would be refreshing to see Dani embark on a season unencumbered by injury. I think the fact that he is now commencing his sixth season at HRC without claiming the title (when his former teammate was 'let go' having delivered a World Championship) says much about their continued faith in Dani's sponsorship.

michaelm said:

If stoner wins and lorenzo finishes second he has 50 points and lorenzo has 40, as opposed to 25 against 45 now, which is 30 points net difference, but perhaps I was unclear that I was referring to him retrieving this (potential) position rather than lorenzo's current lead. I don't think him winning is all that presumptuous either seeing he was fastest in the warm-up by some margin, ahead of lorenzo who won, and very far ahead of the eventually second-placed pedrosa on the same bike and tyres at the time of the incident; both riders who were ahead of him at that time, momentarily in the case of the second rider, crashed of their own volition, and he appeared to be riding so as not to crash like them. This was also a race in which he possibly had a bike advantage against lorenzo (and rossi for that matter) which he may not have later in the year.



FWIW I am specifically annoyed with talpa, not other rossi fans or even rossi himself. Regard me as intolerant if you like; you are correct that snide remarks about stoner's "luck" / defeat in mind games/need for excuses/need to cope with adversary (presumably meaning adversity) in this context did rile me, but not to the extent of being arithmetically challenged

.

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I did try to word my post in a way to make it obvious I was being lighthearted - sorry if I failed. Our "conversations" have always been civilised and I've always enjoyed reading your posts. I would say that you are anything but intolerant - some of the serious yellow brigade on here annoy me at least as much. I know that you, like myself and many others on here, have a favourite rider but are fans of the racing and have been for many years. Stoner and his fans had a right to be annoyed with Rossi IMO.



Regarding the maths, I did state that I assumed you'd gone for the hypothetical scenario where Stoner won and Lorenzo finished 2nd and it appears that that is indeed what you were basing the 30 points on. I hadn't figured the six races you referred to was to catch up to where he could have been though.



Whilst I agree that assuming that Stoner would have won is not particularly presumptuous for all the reasons you give, I would still say that the actual outcome of a race where Rossi didn't take Stoner out is unknowable. He could have been just behind Simoncelli and been taken out by his highside, as just one scenario. I agree that it is far more likely that it would have been Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa, but likely is all it is.



As far as the OP, whilst I agree it'd be nice to see Pedrosa uninjured for a whole season, even if he manages it and his arm issues up to now are resolved, I cannot see him beating a fit and healthy Stoner on the same machinery too often.

double

Viper-7 said:

Its 2011 and after two rounds of Moto GP there is again a familiar site of Lorenzo leading the championship and Pedrosa in a close second.

Not many would have predicted that. Could it be possible to see Dani putting up a challenge for the championship. He is known to be a very consistent rider.

The Honda seems to be the class of the field and it is known Dani's input has been a big help in that. So could we see Stoner and Pedrosa fighting for a championship?? With Stoner already on a 11 point deficit to Dani, everyone knows that in racing every point counts.



(Please note my intention is not to market Pedrosa in any way)

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I would suggest that Honda has stopped listening to Pedrosa and Puig and that is why the bike is now back to its winning ways. Pedrosa will be all the better for it too. Puig shifted to the back of the garage and Pedrosa told to stop whinging and just get on it and ride it.



Pedrosa won't win the championship. He could become WC but only by the other guys losing it. He does not have the ability to go out and take the championship like Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo and Spies do.

michaelm said:

If stoner wins and lorenzo finishes second he has 50 points and lorenzo has 40, as opposed to 25 against 45 now, which is 30 points net difference, but perhaps I was unclear that I was referring to him retrieving this (potential) position rather than lorenzo's current lead. I don't think him winning is all that presumptuous either seeing he was fastest in the warm-up by some margin, ahead of lorenzo who won, and very far ahead of the eventually second-placed pedrosa on the same bike and tyres at the time of the incident; both riders who were ahead of him at that time, momentarily in the case of the second rider, crashed of their own volition, and he appeared to be riding so as not to crash like them. This was also a race in which he possibly had a bike advantage against lorenzo (and rossi for that matter) which he may not have later in the year.



FWIW I am specifically annoyed with talpa, not other rossi fans or even rossi himself. Regard me as intolerant if you like; you are correct that snide remarks about stoner's "luck" / defeat in mind games/need for excuses/need to cope with adversary (presumably meaning adversity) in this context did rile me, but not to the extent of being arithmetically challenged

.

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Thread is about Pedders!! As was my original post, Jorge has the edge no matter how you look at it......your just annoyed that I didn't mention Stoner, or that somehow you figured that he should be a part of every discussion as usual, soon 2007 will come up no doubt.......Obviously you still haven't seen someone about Jerez yet.....

michaelm said:

Stoner was actually correct about laguna seca 2008. Rossi is dangerous and reckless when desperate, and seemingly protected by officialdom.



I apologise to my friends on here, particularly jumkie, for ever being diplomatic about the arrogant ......... He won't win this world championship unless dorna restrict the hondas to 80 bhp, which is probably not beyond the realms of possibility, but if stoner can't win I endorse every one else in the field including dani and jorge whom I have not previously ever supported.

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Here is a good example of great 'tolerance' and lack of bias.....not annoyed with Rossi at all



Back on track, Pedders does have a great shot to be champ this year and we'll see when hes not injured.

michaelm said:

Why on earth has jorge had a mind battle win over stoner, unless he has inside knowledge that rossi will continue to take stoner out, which is the only (admittedly perhaps already crucial) role valentino has played so far , or is likely to play this year on current form.



Jorge basically acknowledged stoner was untouchable at qatar, and that he may have been lucky at jerez. He may beat stoner through talent and consistency, but I don't think mind battles come into it as yet unless you count lack of ability to teleport when threatened by a reckless rider as a mental deficiency in stoner.

(EDIT hadn't seen your post when I made this reply jumkie; we doubtless need to re-set our realities, or talpa needs to look at the tape of the jerez race).

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"...unless you count lack of ability to teleport when threatened by a reckless rider as a mental deficiency in stoner."



Thats one for the ages Mike!



About realities. I suppose if J4rno can deny Rossi had anything to do with the weight limit debate, then Talps can hav his take on Rossi's 'future' effect on the championship.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Agree, which is why I largely try to steer away from it, and apologies if you felt affronted by my post. We all categorise ourselves to an extent - if you are that concerned, then try a different avatar or don't advertise your preference for a rider. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be free to do so, or that you should be pilloried for jumping on the bandwagon liking Rossi, but don't object to categorisation when ultimately you categorise yourself. I didn't say that you specifically posted that Casey was 'washed up' - although the validity of his illness was questioned, and you most definitely opined that he was affected by the pressure exerted by Vale, which is why I thought it odd that you are adamant that such pressure over the course of a season is fallacious.



Returning to the OP, (and I was responsible for deviating from that), it would be refreshing to see Dani embark on a season unencumbered by injury. I think the fact that he is now commencing his sixth season at HRC without claiming the title (when his former teammate was 'let go' having delivered a World Championship) says much about their continued faith in Dani's sponsorship.

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none taken arrabbiata, i just feel like people are so quick to pigeonhole each poster into bopper/boner category when in fact there's quite a number of posters here that states who their favorite rider is but is not a .... rider (sorry, couldn't think of a better way to put it). i've always said vale's my fave racer but i'd rather see him lose and have a battle up front than to see him win by 5 seconds. and about me talking about the pressure mounting on stoner...i'm at a lost as to where you got that from. oh well, i guess that's a conversation for another day.



i would love to see pedbot do well this season, little dude has shown tremendous heart the past few years

yamaka46 said:

I did try to word my post in a way to make it obvious I was being lighthearted - sorry if I failed.

Our "conversations" have always been civilised and I've always enjoyed reading your posts. I would say that you are anything but intolerant - some of the serious yellow brigade on here annoy me at least as much. I know that you, like myself and many others on here, have a favourite rider but are fans of the racing and have been for many years. Stoner and his fans had a right to be annoyed with Rossi IMO.

Regarding the maths, I did state that I assumed you'd gone for the hypothetical scenario where Stoner won and Lorenzo finished 2nd and it appears that that is indeed what you were basing the 30 points on. I hadn't figured the six races you referred to was to catch up to where he could have been though.

Whilst I agree that assuming that Stoner would have won is not particularly presumptuous for all the reasons you give, I would still say that the actual outcome of a race where Rossi didn't take Stoner out is unknowable. He could have been just behind Simoncelli and been taken out by his highside, as just one scenario. I agree that it is far more likely that it would have been Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa, but likely is all it is.

As far as the OP, whilst I agree it'd be nice to see Pedrosa uninjured for a whole season, even if he manages it and his arm issues up to now are resolved, I cannot see him beating a fit and healthy Stoner on the same machinery too often.

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I have no problem with you at all, have always enjoyed your posts, particularly the perspective your engineering background gives you, your fairness and sense of humour, and would like to see you post more .



I have had a sense of humour failure with talpa which looks to be permanent, and have decided not to tolerate posts where he sneers at riders other than the one he follows or at other posters, which unfortunately means not tolerating nearly all of his posts.

Talpa said:

Thread is about Pedders!! As was my original post, Jorge has the edge no matter how you look at it......your just annoyed that I didn't mention Stoner, or that somehow you figured that he should be a part of every discussion as usual, soon 2007 will come up no doubt.......Obviously you still haven't seen someone about Jerez yet.....





Here is a good example of great 'tolerance' and lack of bias.....not annoyed with Rossi at all

Back on track, Pedders does have a great shot to be champ this year and we'll see when hes not injured.

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Despite immense provocation I still have not resorted to your usual first resort, argumentum ad hominem , extremely easy though it would be to prosecute in your case.



This was my initial reaction during the race based on rossi's move being a deliberate passing attempt, a view which nick harris , you and the other usual suspects seemed to share. If it was a deliberate passing attempt I am happy to return to that position, since such a move from rossi in view of his ability and experience would have been inconceivable to me prior to the race, and would imply he was trying to prove something to or about stoner from egocentric motives, perhaps due to his performance or lack thereof relative to stoner on the ducati, which would make him indeed an arrogant ........ careless of his fellow riders. He subsequently made a detailed apology on gp one in which he said it was a riding error where he lost the bike going in and was not attempting to pass, the only legitimate excuse/apology he could make as I am sure he was aware, and I have chosen not to be cynical about this ( in terms off discussions on the forum, this is not real life and I obviously appreciate it is of no concern to rossi or anyone else in absolute terms whether I believe him or not).



With regard to your recent posts, you again resort to one of your other usual fallacies, and argue against what you would like my arguments to be rather than what they actually are. As I said, if stoner loses to lorenzo by less than 30 points (or to pedrosa by less than 29 points for that matter), it will be a matter of arithmetic, not excuses. If anyone is in need of excuses at the moment it is valentino rather than stoner; you certainly seem to feel he is in such need in any case given the large number of excuses you are making for him. And biased though I may be, I was not the one claiming the incident was a legitimate passing attempt about which stoner had no right to take umbrage, perhaps oddly not even in accord with rossi himself, or the one trying to make stoner's understandable reaction to the incident the issue rather than the incident itself, or claiming valentino's pace which led him to crash was proof of his ongoing superiority, nor the one awarding a "mind game victory" to lorenzo, apparently on the basis of stoner being upset by being taken out through no action of his own by the error of a third rider whilst ahead of lorenzo in the second race, having soundly beaten him in the first race. "Mind games", between lorenzo and stoner at least at this point in time, would seem to be a figment of your imagination in the first place anyway.



Pedrosa would obviously be a chance for the championship given an injury free season particularly given the apparent quality of his equipment, but an injury free premier class season for him is currently hypothetical having not as yet occurred.

Mental Anarchist said:

Pedrosa won't win the championship. He could become WC but only by the other guys losing it. He does not have the ability to go out and take the championship like Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo and Spies do.

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I wouldn't put Spies along with Rossi, Stoner and Lorenzo yet. IMO, Pedrosa's demonstrated capabilities are ranked much higher than what is shown by Spies (that is till now).

Renjith said:

I wouldn't put Spies along with Rossi, Stoner and Lorenzo yet. IMO, Pedrosa's demonstrated capabilities are ranked much higher than what is shown by Spies (that is till now).

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As I have said before his physical fragility is a major issue. I think he has also tended to fiddle with the bike too much , seeking perfection, rather than just riding it on any given day regardless of this. On his day when completely happy with things he has been peerless even in comparison with other "aliens"; unfortunately thus far only for a few races per year. He has been doubtless constrained by his many injuries, but I am unconvinced there is much prospect of him remaining injury free for a whole season going forward.

Lorenzo is only leading thanks to Rossi. As far as midget Pedrosa winning the championship? Nah. As strong as the Honda is, under midgets hand...... ain't gonna happen. Lorenzo with the inferior Yamaha as it is would still spank Pedrosa and have a better chance at winning.



Stoner's taking it this year though, that's if Rossi doesn't keep running him over.





And when the hell is Honda gonna give my man Hero Aoyoma a full factory bike !!!

Actually Lorenzo is leading the championship because hes scored more points and kept out of trouble



God you lot are like a dog with a bone!!



No Pedders will not win a championship without the same kind of assistance Hayden got!

techno said:

No Pedders will not win a championship without the same kind of assistance Hayden got!

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Please enlighten us as to what sort of assistance Hayden got.

Austin said:

Please enlighten us as to what sort of assistance Hayden got.

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+1



were you actually following this sport in 2006?

Renjith said:

I wouldn't put Spies along with Rossi, Stoner and Lorenzo yet. IMO, Pedrosa's demonstrated capabilities are ranked much higher than what is shown by Spies (that is till now).

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My comments were in regards to their in built talents and strengths. There is life outside MotoGP and Spies has taken a different route into MotoGP than the others and in my opinion this does not make him less of a rider. In some regards I hold more respect for a rider who is not Spanish or Italian making it to a factory ride in MotoGP. There are 9 factory bikes on the grid and only 3 have non spanish or italian riders. Spies has proved his ability to WIN championships. Just because he has not yet won a MotoGP Championship does not mean that he does not have the mental, emotional and physical strength as well as the talent to achieve it. He is only 2 races into a factory ride but has won a premier championship against formidable talent and done it as a rookie on less then the best bike on tracks he had never raced. Pedrosa on the other hand has had a factory ride for 5 years in motogp racing on tracks he has raced for several years more than that and failed to win more than 2 races per year until the last season. I would suggest that Pedrosa has showed potential but has not demonstrated the capability to win a premier world championship.



I stand by my comments.

Arrabbiata1 said:

+1



were you actually following this sport in 2006?

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I was hinting at the fact that Like hayden in 06 for pedders to win, it would be more bad luck and mishaps and breakdowns would have to befall others thats all.



And yes I was watching the sport in 06!



On the otherhand I do have to say he did have to ride the bike finish and the bike work so I still belive him to be a worthy champion, but that was not the point.

techno said:

I was hinting at the fact that Like hayden in 06 for pedders to win, it would be more bad luck and mishaps and breakdowns would have to befall others thats all.

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I'm sorry. I thought you were implying factory assistance.



Perhaps, but you still have to be in a position to capitalise upon the misfortunes or errors of others. Possibly a better comparison would have been Criville. I regard Nicky's greatest threat in 2006 as Loris actually, and following Catalunya this was effectively removed. Nicky's consistency that year earned him a title ultimately alongside Vale's error at Valencia. But this has already had the crap debated out of it since then I'm afraid.



Although he is in his sixth year on a factory HRC ride, Pedrosa has finished two of the five seasons in second place and in so doing has been runner up to Casey, and Jorge and is the only so called 'alien' not to bag the title. I regard his second place in 2007 as a particular feat given the piece of .... he was riding - irrespective of the fact that it was 'made to measure'. He has also had two third place finishes and a fifth in his inaugural year. The record books don't tell the entire story, and Dani would surely have claimed a title were it not for his persistent injuries and Alberto Puig. I personally believe that he was on course in 2008. I was horrified after Sachsenring 2008 to see that the false pit board info was still being deployed in 2009 - particularly Laguna, after the accident the year before that arguably cost his the title, and could have also cost him his career if not his life. Had Jorge not removed Amatrian then I similarly seriously doubt that he would have ever lifted the title.



Like I say, without reading between the lines of the record books, then Dani is set to be the next Mamola. Perhaps this is his last shot. Seven years in that seat will be a painfully long time without delivering a title....HRC clearly have faith in him still, or more importantly the ability of his evil 'consort' to generate sponsorship but if he doesn't deliver this year - surely depending on the performance of Simoncelli, he will have overstayed his welcome and may well yet be retaining Dovi as his teammate next year in a satellite squad.

Mental Anarchist said:

My comments were in regards to their in built talents and strengths. There is life outside MotoGP and Spies has taken a different route into MotoGP than the others and in my opinion this does not make him less of a rider. In some regards I hold more respect for a rider who is not Spanish or Italian making it to a factory ride in MotoGP. There are 9 factory bikes on the grid and only 3 have non spanish or italian riders. Spies has proved his ability to WIN championships. Just because he has not yet won a MotoGP Championship does not mean that he does not have the mental, emotional and physical strength as well as the talent to achieve it. He is only 2 races into a factory ride but has won a premier championship against formidable talent and done it as a rookie on less then the best bike on tracks he had never raced. Pedrosa on the other hand has had a factory ride for 5 years in motogp racing on tracks he has raced for several years more than that and failed to win more than 2 races per year until the last season. I would suggest that Pedrosa has showed potential but has not demonstrated the capability to win a premier world championship.



I stand by my comments.

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If you look at the current MotoGp field, you will be hard pressed to pick someone who hasn't won a world championship. Yet, they are all over - some in the front, most just making up the number.

Spies may have shown potential but he hasn't achieved much in MotoGP. How can you assume that Spies is going to win world championships in the next 4 years or even win at a rate of 2 races/year? (He's even trumped by Sic who is also in his 2nd year and in a pseudo factory team).



My point is that other people you mentioned - Rossi, Stoner andLorenzo have proved they are the best in MotoGp. Pedro has proved that he can run with them on his day. Spies has proved nothing and hence it is illogical to include him along proven MotoGp winners.