No weight penalty for Ducati so far

Thanks for the info Yamaka. I heard the announcers talking that if Ducati went 1 and 2 in race one that a penalty would be applied. But as you have shown it's not going to happen. Presently Bayliss is the only one doing really well on the duke. I actually am happy to see all the teams doing well and looking strong this year in WSBK. Suzuk has shown they are as capable as Honda, Yamaha and Ducati. Right now I don't see Bayliss as having an advantage, it's just his typical smooth speed that's keeping him in the top 3. I think Bayliss staying smart and consistent is giving him such the points lead. He knows that he doesn't have to win every race to win his final championship. Now if Max could have kept it on 2 wheels at Phillip Island, well then we might have seen Ducati getting that penalty at this point.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Apr 9 2008, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is from the FIM technical Regulation:
LINK



I have done the maths (hopefully correctly) :

Qatar
Race 1: 2-cyl = posns 1 + 2 = 45pts; 4-cyl = posns 3 + 5 = 27pts
Race 2: 2-cyl = posns 2 + 3 = 36pts; 4-cyl = posns 1 + 7 = 34pts
race average: 2-cyl = 45 + 36 / 4 = 20.25; 4-cyl = 27 + 34 /4 = 15.25

Philip Island
Race 1: 2-cyl = posns 1 + 3 = 41pts; 4-cyl = posns 2 + 5 = 31pts
Race 2: 2-cyl = posns 1 + 4 = 37pts; 4-cyl = posns 2 + 3 = 36pts
race average: 2-cyl = 41 + 37 / 4 = 19.5; 4-cyl = 31 + 36 /4 = 16.75

Valencia
Race 1: 2-cyl = posns 1 + 2 = 45pts; 4-cyl = posns 3 + 4 = 28pts
Race 2: 2-cyl = posns 2 + 7 = 29pts; 4-cyl = posns 1 + 3 = 41pts
race average: 2-cyl = 45 + 29 / 4 = 18.5; 4-cyl = 28 + 41 /4 = 17.25

Hence 3 event averages are
2-cyl = 20.25 + 19.5 + 18.5 / 3 = 19.416666
4-cyl = 15.25 + 16.75 + 17.25 / 3 = 16.416666

Hence difference is less than 5pts, so no weight penalty.

Thanks for the info.

Could Ducati be foxing though?
I remember the interview with Bayliss after race 1 and he was genuinely disappointed for Max N & Checa. I thought at the time what a nice gesture and then remembered the weight penalty and thought perhaps there was an alternative reason for his concern.

frizzle, u dont sand bag in the races, just to save having extra weight added to your bike. what happens if u do that then, lose the championship at the end of the year, because u gave those points up. bayliss is a racer, no way would he do that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Craig3089 @ Apr 10 2008, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>frizzle, u dont sand bag in the races, just to save having extra weight added to your bike. what happens if u do that then, lose the championship at the end of the year, because u gave those points up. bayliss is a racer, no way would he do that.
I think he is a racer and seems a decent bloke who wouldn't like to see someone crash so close to the finish after a good ride regardless of anything else. It is tempting to speculate that he would not ride past the limits of the bike to win as he did in round 1 against say neukirchner or haga given the current points position though, especially if it resulted in a weight penalty against riders closer to him in the championship.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 10 2008, 06:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think he is a racer and seems a decent bloke who wouldn't like to see someone crash so close to the finish after a good ride regardless of anything else.

Nah it was definitely totally selfish, hes a racer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 11 2008, 07:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nah it was definitely totally selfish, hes a racer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 12 2008, 03:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>

Honda and Yamaha should go for 1200cc V-Twin. It's very unfair technically to have different c.c.
I bet the twin can have almost full throttle when the bike is still leaning at the corner and peak power comes at lower rev.. Anybody remember last time when honda have the twin?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (V5Stroker @ Apr 22 2008, 04:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Anybody remember last time when honda have the twin?
well they won the 02 championship with edwards on the RC51.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Apr 22 2008, 09:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well they won the 02 championship with edwards on the RC51.

Thanks bro.

Yep,the RC51 was basically Honda showing the world what they had been complaining about.The 1000cc Twin had a huge advantage over the 750's and Ducati denied it to the end.Then Honda slapped the RC51 together and won 2 Superbike titles in 3 years on it.Nicky also won the AMA title on one.Shortly after, the in line 4 1000 was approved because of the embarrassment to Ducati.It was unbearable for Ducati to admit that a company that really didnt delve in twins,threw one toghether and kicked their ... so easily right off the drawing board.I posted on another board that is exactly what Honda should do,slap a 1200 VTwin togher and show WSBK and Ducati that playing by the same rules will result in them getting their ... kicked

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ May 1 2008, 10:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yep,the RC51 was basically Honda showing the world what they had been complaining about.The 1000cc Twin had a huge advantage over the 750's and Ducati denied it to the end.Then Honda slapped the RC51 together and won 2 Superbike titles in 3 years on it.Nicky also won the AMA title on one.Shortly after, the in line 4 1000 was approved because of the embarrassment to Ducati.It was unbearable for Ducati to admit that a company that really didnt delve in twins,threw one toghether and kicked their ... so easily right off the drawing board.I posted on another board that is exactly what Honda should do,slap a 1200 VTwin togher and show WSBK and Ducati that playing by the same rules will result in them getting their ... kicked

Over here it was known as the SP2. Shame Slighty wasn't around then, having endured the thankless task of trying to be competetive on the old 750.

Listen, Ducati write the rule book in WSB and the Flammini's capitulate every time. Ducati threatened to quit WSB at the end of '07 unless they had dispensation to run a big bore version of the 1098 and it was all ........ - they were calling their bluff. You race to sell bikes...a marque like Ducati simply couldn't afford not to go racing. Think how a small concern in Bologna has been transformed into a worldwide brand. The 916 was a design icon..all facilitated through WSB. They were never about to pull out from such a massive shop window. I accept, it cost big bucks to make the 999 competetive with the in-lines towards the end of its development cycle -the new product is the 1098 and as usual they want to have their cake and eat it. this is proddy racing - if your road version can't crack it on the track you can't just seek a rule change to compensate and reduce costs. Build another configuration like Honda did with the SP1 and SP2. They should have homologated the road going Desmosedici and raced a 1 ltr V4, but they won't do that because they want the 1098 to compete with the Japs both on the track and in the showroom. It'd be like the British buying WSB and weighting the rules towards Triples so that within a few seasons the grid is full of Triumphs, all shod on a Dunlop control tyre!! Phillip Morris and Xerox provide the budget for Casey and Troy to win races, and every time they do that's another few bikes sold worldwide. Ducati instigated the ridiculous 1000cc twins 750cc four rules which made WSB so inequatable in the 90's, (unjustly gifting Fogarty 4 world titles in the process); and now the 1098, sorry 1200, is set to become similarly as untouchable - thank Christ Troy's retiring this year. That said, HRC have been doing the same thing in GP for decades..seeking rule changes to match their racing philosophies. But didn't it backfire on them last year! Having petitioned for the drop to 800cc they proceeded to design a bike around a ventriloquist dummy as a rider, (operated by Puig), and produced the biggest piece of ..... since that oval pistoned debacle in the 80's.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ May 3 2008, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Over here it was known as the SP2. Shame Slighty wasn't around then, having endured the thankless task of trying to be competetive on the old 750.

2. Listen, Ducati write the rule book in WSB and the Flammini's capitulate every time.

3. I accept, it cost big bucks to make the 999 competetive with the in-lines towards the end of its development cycle -the new product is the 1098 and as usual they want to have their cake and eat it. this is proddy racing - if your road version can't crack it on the track you can't just seek a rule change to compensate and reduce costs.

4. Ducati instigated the ridiculous 1000cc twins 750cc four rules which made WSB so inequatable in the 90's, (unjustly gifting Fogarty 4 world titles in the process); and now the 1098, sorry 1200, is set to become similarly as untouchable

5. That said, HRC have been doing the same thing in GP for decades..seeking rule changes to match their racing philosophies.

1. The RC45 got a lot of stick for being not good enough, but lil John seemed okay with it. I don't think Slighht was good enough to make the difference that some riders could.

2. Ducati don't write the rulebook, but its clear they have a large influence. Superbike racing and Ducati mutually rely on each other and that means they are strong together or weak together.

3. The Japanese factories complained their way to being allowed 1000cc bikes because it was too expensive to make the 750 fast enough, its only fair that Ducati are granted the same request. The basis of superbike racing is to race machines against each other that are roughly equivalent in performance, it doesn't matter if a certain configuration is superior enough to achieve the speed with 200cc less. In fact the variation is excellent for the sport. Obviously keeping the rules balanced is a tough task to do because it needs to stay even enough to keep the competitiors happy without altering the regulations enough to destabilize the series. At the moment it looks ok, Bayliss has been riding extremely well and is being followed always by a line of 4 cylinder bikes.

4. Foggy was the best superbike rider of his generation and was a class above most of his competitors, world titles are not gifts. (For the record i hate Foogy).

5. I'm under the impression that changing the rules in GP requires unanimous votes from the MSMA. Honda can't make the rules, they can only propose changes that the others like.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 7 2008, 12:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. The RC45 got a lot of stick for being not good enough, but lil John seemed okay with it. I don't think Slighht was good enough to make the difference that some riders could.

2. Ducati don't write the rulebook, but its clear they have a large influence. Superbike racing and Ducati mutually rely on each other and that means they are strong together or weak together.

3. The Japanese factories complained their way to being allowed 1000cc bikes because it was too expensive to make the 750 fast enough, its only fair that Ducati are granted the same request. The basis of superbike racing is to race machines against each other that are roughly equivalent in performance, it doesn't matter if a certain configuration is superior enough to achieve the speed with 200cc less. In fact the variation is excellent for the sport. Obviously keeping the rules balanced is a tough task to do because it needs to stay even enough to keep the competitiors happy without altering the regulations enough to destabilize the series. At the moment it looks ok, Bayliss has been riding extremely well and is being followed always by a line of 4 cylinder bikes.

4. Foggy was the best superbike rider of his generation and was a class above most of his competitors, world titles are not gifts. (For the record i hate Foogy).

5. I'm under the impression that changing the rules in GP requires unanimous votes from the MSMA. Honda can't make the rules, they can only propose changes that the others like.
Wocher Tom. Got to disagree on er, just about everything there son...

1/ I think Slighty was on the wrong bike at the wrong time, and although I love the boys from Louth, I sometimes wonder what galaxy Tuxworth is actually in. Kozinski may have seemed o.k. with it, Foggy didn't to me.
2/ I am talking figuratively for Chrissakes. I realise that Ducati do not literally write the rules - but that certain symbiosis between the Flammini's and Bologna to which you refer certainly works in their favour and is the main reason why they would never have quit the paddock this year as they threatened to do.
3/ Total utter bollocks - apart from the bit about Bayliss. Even if the cost of making a 750cc bike hadn't been prohibitory to some teams, it wasn't just about speed you clown; Kawasaki make storming motors and very fast bikes right?, they just can't make them go round in a circle very convincingly, which if you hadn't noticed is a major factor in short circuit racing. Its about engine useability, and the overall characteristics of the package. A 750 might be made as fast if not faster than a 1ltr twin - think Muzzy Kwaka - but which one gets the power down smoother? Which one gets the drive. Don't confuse top speed and torque. This series is destined to become the Ducati cup once more, (weighting or no weighting - 3KG which makes eff all difference). They had found the balance in machinery -now its returned to a confused farrago of constant rule adjustments the inequity of which will only go in Ducatis favour.
4/ Foggy was most definitely not the best Superbike rider of his generation and that's the travesty to my mind; and yes, just like individual races even championships themselves can to a certain extent be gifted. Hard work or not, some earn it more than others. For me to say that Foggy was gifted all four is a daft statement granted, but I seriously doubt weather he would have had the success that he did out of that team and on a 750 four. And why for the record do you hate Foggy. Like I care, like anybody cares, like he cares - you don't even know the man.
5/ Who do you think petitions the other manufacturers and the carries the clout in the MSMA. Yes it's supposed to be a unanimous process, and we in the Western World supposedly live in a democracy..life aint like that, wisen up, don't be so naive. Who on earth do you think could be pushing for this 600 class to usurp the 250 strokers....what possible vested interest could be involved there?? I'll give you a clue -it aint Aprilia or KTM, and if it doesn't get inaugarated <strike>for HRC</strike> sorry, for the supposed good of the sport in the next few weeks I'll .... in my lid.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ May 8 2008, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Wocher Tom. Got to disagree on er, just about everything there son...

2. I think Slighty was on the wrong bike at the wrong time

3. I am talking figuratively for Chrissakes. I realise that Ducati do not literally write the rules - but that certain symbiosis between the Flammini's and Bologna to which you refer certainly works in their favour and is the main reason why they would never have quit the paddock this year as they threatened to do.

4. Total utter bollocks - apart from the bit about Bayliss. Even if the cost of making a 750cc bike hadn't been prohibitory to some teams, it wasn't just about speed you clown; Kawasaki make storming motors and very fast bikes right?, they just can't make them go round in a circle very convincingly, which if you hadn't noticed is a major factor in short circuit racing. Its about engine useability, and the overall characteristics of the package. A 750 might be made as fast if not faster than a 1ltr twin - think Muzzy Kwaka - but which one gets the power down smoother? Which one gets the drive. Don't confuse top speed and torque. This series is destined to become the Ducati cup once more, (weighting or no weighting - 3KG which makes eff all difference). They had found the balance in machinery -now its returned to a confused farrago of constant rule adjustments the inequity of which will only go in Ducatis favour.

5. Foggy was most definitely not the best Superbike rider of his generation and that's the travesty to my mind; and yes, just like individual races even championships themselves can to a certain extent be gifted. Hard work or not, some earn it more than others. For me to say that Foggy was gifted all four is a daft statement granted, but I seriously doubt weather he would have had the success that he did out of that team and on a 750 four. And why for the record do you hate Foggy. Like I care, like anybody cares, like he cares - you don't even know the man.

6. Who do you think petitions the other manufacturers and the carries the clout in the MSMA. Yes it's supposed to be a unanimous process, and we in the Western World supposedly live in a democracy..life aint like that, wisen up, don't be so naive. Who on earth do you think could be pushing for this 600 class to usurp the 250 strokers....what possible vested interest could be involved there?? I'll give you a clue -it aint Aprilia or KTM, and if it doesn't get inaugarated <strike>for HRC</strike> sorry, for the supposed good of the sport in the next few weeks I'll .... in my lid.

1. Thats kool man, it'd be a short discussion if we agreed all the way.

2. I think you could pretty much say that about any rider not on the eventual championship winning machinary, but i think the rider makes the difference at the end of the day.

3. I don't really disagree with you hear, i was just stating that even though Ducatis influence on the rules is wrong in principle, it is not entirely a negative thing for the championship.

4. I wrote speed as a general term for how fast the bike gets around the track, i know top speed isnt everything. Sorry i was not clear here. Either way the treatment being given to Ducati at the moment lies reasonably consistent with the issue of 750'd against 1000's, and to treat it differently would have been hugely unfair.

5. Although the Ducati package was the ideal equipment in his era, Foggy was still able to beat all of his teammates in a time when Ducati monopolised most of the best riders. He was top ducati every season he rode for them between 93 and 99. Foggy obviously showed himself to not be a particularly adaptable rider so perhaps he wouldnt have won on a four, but when he was comfortable with his bike he was incredible.

6. The new propesed rules are not released because the MSMA can't agree on reasonable regulations, if Honda had their way we would have gone 4 stroke in all classes 2 years ago. All the manufacturers that suit their marketting stratergies, thats why they are there.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 8 2008, 01:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>6. The new propesed rules are not released because the MSMA can't agree on reasonable regulations, if Honda had their way we would have gone 4 stroke in all classes 2 years ago. All the manufacturers that suit their marketting stratergies, thats why they are there.

Fair do's, good reply. On your final point though, that's exactly what I'm saying. Racing is a shop window, and the gravity of a giant company like HRC will eventually warp the rules to suit their own marketplace. Honda Racing will get their own way, they invariably do. I think Flammini might have a thing or two to say about this proposed 600 class though.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ May 8 2008, 08:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think Flammini might have a thing or two to say about this proposed 600 class though.

Yea man thats a whole nother can of worms, i can't wait to see how its resolved.