Natural Talent

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MigsAngel @ May 19 2008, 06:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think talent is measure by the ability to adapt the natural skills a rider has to suit the racing, bike, track, weather, or any situation really.
which leads us back to...... achievment.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Haga @ May 19 2008, 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I may have been biast with Haga but to me he is a guy with natural talent, he has performed well on every bike he was ridden on, apart from maybe the Aprillia Cube in MotoGP but CEII had no luck on that bike either and he isn't exactly a poor rider. Nori has always been a bridesmaid in WSBK but when was the last time he finished outside the top 4 on a WSBK season? 1999 I seem to recall, and he is, on paper, the 5th most successful WSBK rider of all time.
dont get me wrong mate, i like nori. he has enormous talent in some company but not so much in other company.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 19 2008, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>dont get me wrong mate, i like nori. he has enormous talent in some company but not so much in other company.

Fair point, he just strikes me as someone with natural talent, maybe it isn't as noticable as someone like VR46 but it is there.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Haga @ May 19 2008, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes i'm 16 but you seemed to be surprised when I announced it. Its not like I post immature or offensive comments, I try to be as mature and serious as possible on this forum, can't you be the same?

No hard feelings but, looking past midnight some might disagree in that though

Great question.

Ogunski pointed out the distinction between talent and skill..I agree wholeheartedly. Like he says, talent tends to be inbred, innate, where skills can be imparted. But although skills are taught, those already imbued by natural affinity will always stand out. When you look back at the history of this sport I've always maintained that certain riders have shone for differing reasons.

For sheer raw talent, I believe that Freddie was unrivaled. Long after Vale had left HRC for Yamaha and the the resulting lacuna left the bike languishing in a directionless morass, the question put to Mr.Nakajima I think in a Dorna press conference as 'If you could choose any rider now to take over the reigns of the RC2 11V who would it be?' 'We have Fleddie' came the immediate reply, not that HRC are renowned for their rider recognition I concede, but you got the impression that the legend still looms large, and that Nakajima San was almost misty eyed behind those aviators. Mike, Ago, KR and Steady Eddie also immediately spring to mind as having similar naturally born talents on a bike.

Determination and psychological strength is a crucial facet to my mind. Although not strictly a talent, those lacking in this department have seen promising careers self destruct. Many cite Foggy as being strong in this area, although I've always regarded his behavior to other riders that he felt threatened by as nothing more than a product of his own insecurity. Doohan had the genuine steely attitude, and although there weren't many towards the end of his career that could take it to him, he was never phased by the depth quality on the grid during his early 500cc career. To achieve what he did in the light of his injuries in '92 has always astounded me and showed formidable mental strength and resolve. During his career, Doohan's mind was a fortress. Some weak in this faculty make themselves easy targets..Biaggi is the obvious candidate, but when Vale coldly announced that Sete would never win another race after the sweeping incident at Qatar, poor 'Giveupnow' simply unravelled. I think if young Lorenzo has an obvious Achilles heel, it will be that Vale will similarly know what buttons to press when the time comes. Being as composed and cool as Lawson was is another weapon. Keeping a calculated race head is something Dani excelled at in his 125 and 250 career. Currently, his race focus is stronger than anyones when the flag drops. I used to think that Dani was similarly strong off the bike, that he could transcend the paddock mind games and the politics or even deploy and play them to his advantage, but the way he has aquitted himself over the last two seasons, I'm not so sure.

l13eaw (Liz) made a very potent point about personality. The ability to charm and work the media, to market yourself, and be liked is a born talent....will there ever be another Bazza? Sheeney had the gift of the gab...not simply in a down to earth 'cockney geezer' sort of way, but he had a remarkable ability to communicate, which meant not only could he manipulate the media, but on the technical side his feedback and data in an era devoid of telemetry, meant that his developmental skills were unsurpassed for many years.

Similar to mental strength, controlled channelled aggression - Schwantz style. Riders such as Bayliss, Doohan, Gardner, - their riding matched their off track persona- the not intimidated by anyone, relish a battle, give as good as you get school. Similarly, the ability to let it hang out and ride a bit wild when necessary, again in a controlled way...something the 800's seemed to have tamed unfortunately.

I would add to this as qualities: dignity, work ethic and dedication and attitude, (Nicky is an example to the entire sport), and bravery...of which there are so many examples both past, and present (hello Alex De Angeles)

Imagine all of the above embodied in one man...the natural ability, the charisma, the intelligence, psychological strength, racecraft, the grit and fight...in short the skills and qualities that together constitute a unique talent. All the best attributes of the past greats, synthesised into one package, surely if it happened, it really would be a one off phenomenon. That's why I firmly believe this sport will never see the like of VR again.

On the subject of McCoy by the way, (apart from Crafar on the Dunlop's at Donny which was an exceptional set of circumstances), you really did have to be quite good to win a GP on Clifford's WCM YZR second hand car boot Yam - genius. ( .... I forgot about Laconi, that's another of my presumptions down the toilet then!)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ May 19 2008, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>which leads us back to...... achievment.

Not really since if you look at KRJR or Nicky...they failed to adapt as GP change, and so are not talents despite their acheivements, in my view....

Then you at Biaggi or Capirossi both Talents despite never acheiving the big prize.....or think of Fonzi Nieto definite talent....Dovi is a talent, but has not had the bike to prove this ability yet, except while in 125s.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MigsAngel @ May 19 2008, 07:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not really since if you look at KRJR or Nicky...they failed to adapt as GP change, and so are not talents despite their acheivements, in my view....

Then you at Biaggi or Capirossi both Talents despite never acheiving the big prize.....or think of Fonzi Nieto definite talent....Dovi is a talent, but has not had the bike to prove this ability yet, except while in 125s.
then there is degree's of talent like there is degrees of achievement. biaggi may never have won the championship but was 2nd and 3rd, so talented yes but i would say not as talented as say doohan and rossi. this is where its not so clear cut, krjr won a championship but i consider max to be more talented. that may be unfair though because we should take all the variable's into account like krjr had an indisputably .... bike to defend his title.

conclusion, every racer we know the name of is talented or we would never have heard of them, but there are degree's of talent.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 19 2008, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>conclusion, every racer we know the name of is talented or we would never have heard of them, but there are degree's of talent.
Why didn't I think of that? Thread sewn up in sentence - nice one

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ May 19 2008, 09:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why didn't I think of that? Thread sewn up in sentence - nice one

Yeah, instead you made that long novel above for so little

Nice novel by the way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bikergirl @ May 19 2008, 03:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>so what you're saying is you asked a question to which you only believe there is one correct answer (your own) in order to be able to contradict whoever bothered to reply.
Hahaha, I started coughing and laughing when I read this part. You are such a ..... (i say this as a compliment), but you are absolutely right. Let me ask as open ended question as possible, then tell everybody how full of .... they are, predictable.


Oh and Migs, you can turn anything into a hater rant about Nicky. Pinky+BarryMachine=MigsAngel (dumb, dumber, dumbestest)

Only way to solve this is to put them all on surfboards (or whatever they have never done before)and see who stands up the quickest and starts shredding. Natural Talent is something that is discovered and is immediately accessed. For example Hopkins. He was fast the moment that he got on the bike from his earliest childhood. They probably took the training wheels off the first day he rode a bike, took him to compete a week later and watched him destroy the competition. That is natural talent and I am sure that each and every rider has it out there. But in this game it will only take you so far, like Hopkins. How many people have you know that had all the talent in the world but just threw it away? There also has to be want, desire, hungriness, support from family and friends, and a lot of luck. Who has the most natural talent? I would say Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, Tiger Woods (maybe), Tony Hawk, Velntino Rossi, and Barry Sanders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 19 2008, 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh and Migs, you can turn anything into a hater rant about Nicky. Pinky+BarryMachine=MigsAngel (dumb, dumber, dumbestest)

Migs = Pinky??

I want my 2 cents in too!

In essence I think talent will show how fast you achieve your next goal within your expertise.

As pointed out every motogp rider has more talent than most on what they do (meaning 95% kind of most). Most work pretty hard at it also. But in this sport you can also see extreme talents and extremely hard working ethics. To find a good place in motoGP today as a rookie I think you need close to extreme talent like Lorenzo and Dovi. If you are just as good as the next guy, but the next guy has much more experience you`ll have a hard time settling in a good space in the competition overall, and you`ll probably fade away after one or two seasons. What`s great about MotoGP in comparison to other motorsports is that the riders need to be a bit crazy and this attracts some personalities rather than the bots at F1. Abundance of talent is often expressed with a more fluid and loose style at the circuit as they feel more confident and at home at those extreme speeds doing very technical moves and thinking ahead. The not so immensely talented will have most of the concentration on finding the right lines at those speeds.

Hows that for motogp talent ranting by a guy that doesn`t even ride the bike

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MigsAngel @ May 19 2008, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not really since if you look at KRJR or Nicky...they failed to adapt as GP change, and so are not talents despite their acheivements, in my view....
That is because your HATE blinds you.

And frankly makes you look very silly (something I already knew but now you expose it to the rest of the forum). So lets look at a few examples of those who had a dramatic engine configuration change following a championship title, or perhaps a champ who won only one title, I suppose they are all talentless according to your <lack> of reasoning. You sound like Tom. I guess "talentless" Kevin Schwantz could only manage to win one championship because he could NOT adapt to that Suzuki everybody else was winning on.

Hey, maybe KRJR's dad was also "talentless". I bet you didn't know that "talentless" King Kenny Roberts SENIOR was not able to "ADAPT" when Yamaha changed from an in-line 4 to a square & V4 engine which was a disaster. He was unable to "adapt" hence no title defense after the change, hence according to your reasoning, he is not a talent "despite his achievements." He credits that engine change for not winning the next three seasons. I'm sure you didn't know this because your hater opinions are based on recent history, just like others on here (like Tom who think Schwantz overrated because he only won one title) trying to kick knowledge based more on their bias rather than actual racing history knowledge.

Oh wait, here is another example of a "talentless" rider who wasn't able to "ADAPT" to a change in engine configuration. Have you heard of a racer named Freddy Spencer? Well in 1984, when Honda built their first ever V-4 two-stroke racer (NSR500), they had a very unorthodox built bike. They changed the ergos dramatically, the fuel tank was under the engine and exhaust came over the top. The bike was so over engineered and ergonomically unfit for Freddy (umh, Honda has never done something crazy then gone back to change it, have they?) that Spencer had no chance at defending his title . (Sound familiar?) Oh yeah, the 07 mini-bike was built with the 06 champ in mind...

Yeah these are just a few examples of your reasoning that KRJR & Hayden are not considered talented in your "view" (assuming you can see) because they couldn't "adapt"; newsflash, after 2000 and 2006 the bikes changed dramatically in engine configuration just like they did in after Kenny Senior & Freddy Spencer (both of which were not able to defend their title on the new bike). Read: Sport Rider Magazine, April 2008 page 116; also Roadracing World, June 2008, perhaps you can learn a little about your notion of talented riders being able to "adapt".

I await your rationale and backpedaling, or confusing rebuttal trying to split hairs to make your weak argument to explain how my examples above are sooo different than your examples and reasoning.. I suggest you read a book about the history of MotoGP racing, because obviously you know very little if you think the 2000 & 2006 World Champions of MotoGP are NOT talented in your "view"; because according to your 'reasoning' (if that is what we call 'unreason' now) then this could apply to: Kevin Schwantz, King Kenny Roberts Senior, & Freddy Spencer. (I'm sure there are a few other examples). But as I’m feeling a bit nice today, I didn't want to pile on more .... for you to crawl out from under.

This is Terrific, there are so many different ideas . I've seen suggestions of talent being defined in raw speed, consistency, adaptability, results, staying power, mental strength, bike control and all sorts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 20 2008, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is Terrific, there are so many different ideas . I've seen suggestions of talent being defined in raw speed, consistency, adaptability, results, staying power, mental strength, bike control and all sorts.

Yep...everyone has a different idea of what constitute talent....if you take all those things and try to find a rider that fits them all then you may only find very few riders that fit the bill....Rossi definitely fits them all!

I still stick to my view that adaptablity is key to talent...

Jumkie and Sackwack think its talent is about riders from the US, but that could be down to bias. They do seem a bit grumpy after Sunday though, I wonder why?

Tom outstanding thread, you must be talented

XX Liz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ May 19 2008, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hahaha, I started coughing and laughing when I read this part. You are such a ..... (i say this as a compliment), but you are absolutely right.
Why thank you Jumkie...a compliment is definitely what I take it as.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MigsAngel @ May 20 2008, 11:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Jumkie and Sackwack think its talent is about riders from the US, but that could be down to bias. They do seem a bit grumpy after Sunday though, I wonder why?
Now now, don't pick on Jumkie. Even I feel terrible for gorgeous butted Nicky.

Ha Ha yes Bikergirl........ well if we are going to lower the tone to eye candy then:

Nicky Hayden, James Toseland are definitely NATURALLY talented. Yummy.

Liz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MigsAngel @ May 20 2008, 02:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>

I still stick to my view that adaptablity is key to talent...

Jumkie and Sackwack think its talent is about riders from the US, but that could be down to bias. They do seem a bit grumpy after Sunday though, I wonder why?
Haha, yeah, I see you got nothing for FOOT-IN-MOUTH. You present your view to support your hate but then you are shown how narrow it was and you don't have the balls to recognize when you miss speak; I call that PATHETIC.

Now here you inject nationalism, to say its about US rider (I think you're showing your true core motives for disliking my examples, and disliking KRJR & Hayden; even more pathetic.



As far as the topic, a person I think embodied 'talent' in Motorcycle racing is Mike Hailwood. Look him up Migs, you may learn something about this sport. He won on everything and everywhere, different brands, displacements, tracks, real road courses, you name it he won on it (even cars). For those of you who's racing history goes all the way back to Rossi only, you might want to look this guy up. As Roger said, achievements can be a measure of talent (obviously this is one aspect of many) and Hailwood had several of these aspects: foremost natural talent, character, work ethic, achievement, opportunity to show it, versatility, and yes Migs, adaptability (yet even he had his limitations when asked to win on a .... bike in a prototype series like this). Hailwood even tried his had at car racing and became a Formula 2 champ and then tried his hand at Formula 1, where he excelled. He was on his way to title that series when he had a terrible crash (back in those days any crash was potentially life ending). After his recovery, he return to bikes, and devastated the field at the Isle of Mann.


(Side note: for the record, Gary McCoy was perhaps one of the most talented men in GP racing during his short stint in the series. He was able to take the KR Modenas 3 to a pole (how is that for taking a sub-par machine and doing something with it). He won three races against a talented field, and used a style and rear wheel that revolutionize the way engineers view traction and tire wear. Unfortunately, he crashed and ended his career, otherwise, I believe he would have been picked up by a top tier team and made more in achievement.)