Natural Talent

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 19 2008, 01:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's only baiting to the people who are incapable of discussion because they see disagreement as some kind of challenge. I'm not interested in a competition to win everyone over, i started this to talk about bike racing. I want as many people as possible to dig in
well i gave you an opinion. which you duly ignored, presumably because it doesnt agree with yours but can't find anything to bash about it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bikergirl @ May 19 2008, 12:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well i gave you an opinion. which you duly ignored, presumably because it doesnt agree with yours but can't find anything to bash about it.

I'll quiz you about a few of your points later don't worry. This topic looks good to me

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 19 2008, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll quiz you about a few of your points later don't worry. This topic looks good to me
A fairly deep philosophical question tom, probably beyond my horizons. To be truly great in most spheres seems to require both talent and diligence.

McCoy possessed a limited but close to unique talent which enabled him to do the spectacular and perhaps surpass the capabilities of his machinery in particular circumstances on a few occasions, but was not conducive to consistent results or even his continued physical well-being. He was great to watch though, particularly in his 3 race wins in the 500s; valentino rossi who I think was in his first premier class season even said so. Hence he is in my list of favourite riders but would not be in my list of greatest riders; eddie lawson and valentino rossi obvously would be.

The first thing I would present is there is a difference between talent and skill. Talent is something you are born with and with practice can be refined and developed. A skill is something that is learned. Having said that there are other factors that determine a riders performance. Desire, motivation, and most important is work ethic. These three factors are contingent on a certain amount of skill and talent are already present. We see several riders who have both desire, skill and work ethic but are not capable of consistent results. On the other side we see riders with boatloads of talent who have largely been a disappointment (Gobert, and Melandri come to mind). In my opinion There are certain riders who have all of the above, and those are the riders who consistently stand out even when they are having a bad year (Rossi comes to mind in this case). Gobert undoubtedly had a lot of skill and talent to spare, but his results were not in proportion to his skill. On the flip side Rossi has talent, skill, and everything else but he also works hard and wants to be World champion. Then you have Colin Edwards who has talent, and skill but not the same level of desire, clearly he could have pushed harder and possibly had one more place on the podium but he was satisfied with third (lack of desire). All of these skills will not make up for the lack of competitive machinery(Chris Vermeulen, John Hopkins).

talent is measured by the number and quality of the umbrella girls surrounding your bike...



simple as!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ May 19 2008, 12:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A fairly deep philosophical question tom, probably beyond my horizons. To be truly great in most spheres seems to require both talent and diligence.

McCoy possessed a limited but close to unique talent which enabled him to do the spectacular and perhaps surpass the capabilities of his machinery in particular circumstances on a few occasions, but was not conducive to consistent results or even his continued physical well-being. He was great to watch though, particularly in his 3 race wins in the 500s; valentino rossi who I think was in his first premier class season even said so. Hence he is in my list of favourite riders but would not be in my list of the greatest riders; eddie lawson and valentino rossi obvously would be.


I tought this was about talented riders, I did'nt realise it was about the greatest or our favourite riders, sure the greats are obviously the most talanted because they have succeeded the most and gained in all areas by having the best team, bike, tyres and a perfect mix of talent and skill,

I tought it was about talent in general and to say a rider has no talent because he has not the best score sheet is a bit absurd to me

Mccoys talent is far from limited, The guy has busted himself up real bad in the past and still has a ride so someone obviously thinks his talent is worth paying for

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ May 19 2008, 02:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>talent is measured by the number and quality of the umbrella girls surrounding your bike...



simple as!

I hadn't realised we were talking about talent in the trouser department!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (odessa @ May 19 2008, 01:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I tought this was about talented riders, I did'nt realise it was about the greatest or our favourite riders, sure the greats are obviously the most talanted because they have succeeded the most and gained in all areas by having the best team, bike, tyres and a perfect mix of talent and skill,

I tought it was about talent in general and to say a rider has no talent because he has not the best score sheet is a bit absurd to me

Mccoys talent is far from limited, The guy has busted himself up real bad in the past and still has a ride so someone obviously thinks his talent is worth paying for
He is obviously hugely more talented than the common man, and also has 3 more premier class race wins than most competitive race riders in history. I was actually disagreeing with tom that he did not have significant talent. My point was that whilst probably no other rider could have done what he did to win those races on that bike on those days, this approach on other occasions in other conditions was not successful, and probably contributed to his getting busted up. Of course how much opportunity he was given in terms of machinery in his prime is another question.

EDIT You are correct that my comments about favourite and greatest riders were irrelevant; I just felt like chucking them in.

<u>THIS</u> is "Natural Talent" ..... I'm she rides fantastically

Take Lorenzo and James Toseland both rookies on the grid. I would say that Lorenzo has more natural talent on a GP bike . Toseland has a more skill based (if we are saying skill is a learned thingiemawhatsit) talent but then Toseland has other gifts outside the genre of motorbikes. Communicating to the engineers what they need to make the bike go faster. knowing exactly what it is they need to change to achieve that is another talent. I hear by all accounts that Toseland is good in this respect also, though I have no idea about Lorenzo. To go and talk about yawn F1 Schumacher had natural talent for racing and also a technical knowledge to make him stand out above the other drivers. Lets face it Toseland is well educated, Schumacher well educated, Sorry have no idea about Lorenzo again on that score ha ha. Talented personified on a bike even a .... one then Rossi has it in shed loads. And isn't there also a bit of personality that has to come in there also. Recentish past rider Biaggi is renowned for being difficult, do you think that this personality trait could have an outcome on how well the team gels together with motivation to achieve when you have a guy that comes into the garage and merely says, it's crap sort it out? Rossi has a connection with people that motivates. So would it be true to say that being a nice guy also helps?

Its an indefinable thingiemawhatsit but when it works its just awesome.

XXLiz

You are right Tom, by definition talent is something you are born with and it's often missused for learned skill. Also, training the brain is obviously especially valuable when you are young. We don't need another research project to know that kids with well developed motorics will do well in many sports if given the opertunity, and at the same time and without doubt it will all be tributed to talent.
That's why I think we have to allow for some slack on the original definition. Like it or not, we will allways use "talent" about skills obtained from early childhood or different activities. With that definition skill are something you get by hard work inside the spesific activity or in a closely related activity.

Btw. Lots of grumpy people here today.

Within the field of motorcycle racing I believe that someone with natural talent has to be strong at every aspect of the sport, from how they perform under pressure on and off the track, how they adapt to different bikes and how they perform under different circumstances.

I believe that in this day and age there are only a handful of riders who I would class as "naturally talented", examples of a few of these riders Valentino Rossi, Noriyuki Haga, Chris Vermeulen and James Toseland. I have pick these riders because they were the first ones that came into my head when describing natural talent. For me all of these riders have the assets that I would associate with a naturally talented rider.

Valentino is probably the most obvious choice. He is someone who has adapted to every bike he was ever ridden immaculately. From his very impressive debut season in the top class in 2000 on the NSR500 where he was only beaten to the title by KR JR, to his debut race on the M1 at Welkom in 2004 where as many of you will remember Valentino beat the odds to win his debut race on a bike that could barely reach the podium the season before. Valentino has never been one to crack under pressure either, instead he is probably one of the best examples of someone who dishes out the most pressure both on and off the track. Examples of him performing these two characteristics were best shown with his rivalry with Spaniard Sete Gibernau. On countless occasions on track Vale used to stay right on Sete's rear tyre right until the last lap(s) when he would make a pass he would have probably been lining up for a number of laps and then ease out enough of an adavantage to make sure that Sete would not be able to retake him, it was tactical genious from Rossi and he did the same thing so many times to Sete that it eventually cracked him and caused Sete to push too hard to try and stay ahead (2005 season).

Rossi is also someone who has been able to perform well in all weather conditions, which is another aspect I would class under natural talent. From sweltering conditions usually experienced at medditeranian and Asian rounds, to cool and cloudy conditions usually experienced at Northern European rounds, to windy conditions usually experienced at Phillip Island, to rainly conditons, which are experienced genrally everywhere. Rossi seems to be able to perform very well in every one of these conditions which to me is a large reason why I think he is naturally talented.

Oh and for everyone who has slated me this weekend for my anti-Rossi comments, there is a post that is very pro Rossi.

Who cares what you think?...you're 16

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ May 19 2008, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Who cares what you think?...you're 16

Yes i'm 16 but you seemed to be surprised when I announced it. Its not like I post immature or offensive comments, I try to be as mature and serious as possible on this forum, can't you be the same?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Haga @ May 19 2008, 08:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes i'm 16 but you seemed to be surprised when I announced it. Its not like I post immature or offensive comments, I try to be as mature and serious as possible on this forum, can't you be the same?

pffft....Noooo



















Just messin with ya m8

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Haga @ May 19 2008, 01:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes i'm 16 but you seemed to be surprised when I announced it. Its not like I post immature or offensive comments, I try to be as mature and serious as possible on this forum, can't you be the same?
Sure, being 16 doesn't preclude you from being smarter than all us old .......s . To the contrary, I think research suggests that IQ at least is increasing in general with the generations.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Haga @ May 19 2008, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Within the field of motorcycle racing I believe that someone with natural talent has to be strong at every aspect of the sport, from how they perform under pressure on and off the track, how they adapt to different bikes and how they perform under different circumstances.

I believe that in this day and age there are only a handful of riders who I would class as "naturally talented", examples of a few of these riders Valentino Rossi, Noriyuki Haga, Chris Vermeulen and James Toseland. I have pick these riders because they were the first ones that came into my head when describing natural talent. For me all of these riders have the assets that I would associate with a naturally talented rider.

Valentino is probably the most obvious choice. He is someone who has adapted to every bike he was ever ridden immaculately. From his very impressive debut season in the top class in 2000 on the NSR500 where he was only beaten to the title by KR JR, to his debut race on the M1 at Welkom in 2004 where as many of you will remember Valentino beat the odds to win his debut race on a bike that could barely reach the podium the season before. Valentino has never been one to crack under pressure either, instead he is probably one of the best examples of someone who dishes out the most pressure both on and off the track. Examples of him performing these two characteristics were best shown with his rivalry with Spaniard Sete Gibernau. On countless occasions on track Vale used to stay right on Sete's rear tyre right until the last lap(s) when he would make a pass he would have probably been lining up for a number of laps and then ease out enough of an adavantage to make sure that Sete would not be able to retake him, it was tactical genious from Rossi and he did the same thing so many times to Sete that it eventually cracked him and caused Sete to push too hard to try and stay ahead (2005 season).

Rossi is also someone who has been able to perform well in all weather conditions, which is another aspect I would class under natural talent. From sweltering conditions usually experienced at medditeranian and Asian rounds, to cool and cloudy conditions usually experienced at Northern European rounds, to windy conditions usually experienced at Phillip Island, to rainly conditons, which are experienced genrally everywhere. Rossi seems to be able to perform very well in every one of these conditions which to me is a large reason why I think he is naturally talented.

Oh and for everyone who has slated me this weekend for my anti-Rossi comments, there is a post that is very pro Rossi.
funny why you put championship allergic Noriyuki Haga in you list. didnt shine ion motogp either.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ May 19 2008, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> pffft....Noooo



















Just messin with ya m8

Fair enough, I just don't want to be discriminated against because of my age. I also don't want to fall out with anyone on this forum, i'm just a quite contreversial guy who expresses his opinions.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ May 19 2008, 02:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sure, being 16 doesn't preclude you from being smarter than all us old .......s . To the contrary, I think research suggests that IQ at least is increasing in general with the generations.
yes but manners and respect are on the decline so i say .... em, little .....

dont be so quick to bite haga, your just getting ya chain pulled.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ May 19 2008, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>funny why you put championship allergic Noriyuki Haga in you list. didnt shine ion motogp either.

I may have been biast with Haga but to me he is a guy with natural talent, he has performed well on every bike he was ridden on, apart from maybe the Aprillia Cube in MotoGP but CEII had no luck on that bike either and he isn't exactly a poor rider. Nori has always been a bridesmaid in WSBK but when was the last time he finished outside the top 4 on a WSBK season? 1999 I seem to recall, and he is, on paper, the 5th most successful WSBK rider of all time.