MotoGP 2017 - Team & Rider Changes

JPSLotus said:

Michelin is also the company who is using mismatched tire profiles on the front and rear. They're good, but not infallible.

Lorenzo has performed just fine in the wet many times. Enough so, that it renders your constant bleating irrelevant.

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I'm not convinced Michelin has mismatched tire profiles for the front and rear. I know that's what Stoner claimed, but at all the tracks this year with conditions comparable to last year... lap records were broken! I don't think the riders would be breaking lap records with mismatched tire profiles.

moto vudu said:

I'm not convinced Michelin has mismatched tire profiles for the front and rear. I know that's what Stoner claimed, but at all the tracks this year with conditions comparable to last year... lap records were broken! I don't think the riders would be breaking lap records with mismatched tire profiles.

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The bikes will improve enough to break records regardless. We don't know how fast they would have been if BS continued. What we can say is there were more front end crashes this year and more riders complaining there was no warning when they lost the front than previously. Only one rider said it was like 'coming home'.

The best quote of the season for me came from Marquez. He followed Rossi for just a few laps in a race, and knew immediately what trick the old Michelin master had up his sleeve, then proceeded to take the master back to school for the rest of the year. That's what we get with Marquez, a rider that can evolve his style in a matter of a few corners. The sole alien.

moto vudu said:

I'm not convinced Michelin has mismatched tire profiles for the front and rear. I know that's what Stoner claimed, but at all the tracks this year with conditions comparable to last year... lap records were broken! I don't think the riders would be breaking lap records with mismatched tire profiles.

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Stoner's feedback on a bike is better than anyone on this planet by all accounts. If he says the tire profiles were mismatched, they're mismatched. More importantly though is that he never said you couldn't go fast, he said the characteristics of them did not match based on how they worked on the tarmac.

birdman said:

The bikes will improve enough to break records regardless. We don't know how fast they would have been if BS continued. What we can say is there were more front end crashes this year and more riders complaining there was no warning when they lost the front than previously. Only one rider said it was like 'coming home'.

The best quote of the season for me came from Marquez. He followed Rossi for just a few laps in a race, and knew immediately what trick the old Michelin master had up his sleeve, then proceeded to take the master back to school for the rest of the year. That's what we get with Marquez, a rider that can evolve his style in a matter of a few corners. The sole alien.

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JPSLotus said:

Stoner's feedback on a bike is better than anyone on this planet by all accounts. If he says the tire profiles were mismatched, they're mismatched. More importantly though is that he never said you couldn't go fast, he said the characteristics of them did not match based on how they worked on the tarmac.

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Birdman, do you have a count for front end crashes in 2016 vs 2015? I'm curious if you have data to back up your claim.

JPS, you're a Stoner fanboy so of course you think everything that comes out of his mouth is gospel. Stoner said he thought the profiles at one of the preseason tests right? It could've been before Ducati managed to set the bike up to work with the new tires properly. Anyway, the fact still stands that no lap records would've been broken if the front & rear tire profiles were not working in unison.

moto vudu said:

Birdman, do you have a count for front end crashes in 2016 vs 2015? I'm curious if you have data to back up your claim.

JPS, you're a Stoner fanboy so of course you think everything that comes out of his mouth is gospel. Stoner said he thought the profiles at one of the preseason tests right? It could've been before Ducati managed to set the bike up to work with the new tires properly. Anyway, the fact still stands that no lap records would've been broken if the front & rear tire profiles were not working in unison.

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Data? Link? Press statement? No I watched the races and used my brain.

The front sucks. Plain and simple. The new front, introduced at Valencia, might not be so new afterall. I think it might have been the same front construction Lorenzo used to dominate early races such as Le Mans. Then it mysteriously disappeared until now when he was supposed to be no longer a threat. But, oh dear, this test has been a massive win so far, cant be understated how well he has adapted, his weak feeble brain, to ride the bike that the greatest said requires the most balls. Unreal. Prediction, new front on the way.

Daniboy said:

But the Ducati is wholly different, if Rossi was on todays bike he'd also be doing respectable times.

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The second and a half Rossi was off the times by was Stoners race times the couple of days before. And again Rossi is the greatest ever to exist supposedly so why can't he keep up to speed on a bike a nobody like Casey Stoner was able to win 3x on the previous season.

birdman said:

Data? Link? Press statement? No I watched the races and used my brain.

The front sucks. Plain and simple. The new front, introduced at Valencia, might not be so new afterall. I think it might have been the same front construction Lorenzo used to dominate early races such as Le Mans. Then it mysteriously disappeared until now when he was supposed to be no longer a threat. But, oh dear, this test has been a massive win so far, cant be understated how well he has adapted, his weak feeble brain, to ride the bike that the greatest said requires the most balls. Unreal. Prediction, new front on the way.

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So that's a NO, you have nothing to back up your claim. 2015 may have had more front end crashes than this year.

JPSLotus said:

Generally, testing is very difficult to get any real idea for what pace is possible or not because of the different programs riders may be running....or due to sandbagging. The latter is something I feel is probably going on even in Valencia right now, and may show itself further at Sepang in January. Likewise Vinales topping the sheets means little as this isn't FP sessions when it counts.

After hearing the sound of the V4 powering next year's RC213V, it was ominous in sound to me. I think people focusing on the inter-team battles or what will someone do on such-and-such bike, are not paying attention to the real story of Marc Marquez possibly receiving a worldbeater bike. 2016's engine, I would have rated as 3 out of 10 in Losail. By the time Valencia rolled around, I would have pegged it at 6 or 7 out of 10 with the improvements they made. So MM won a title with an engine that was at it's best only a 6 or 7 out of 10. What happens if he gets an engine that is around 9/10 or 10/10? The advantage for MM would be so great, I could see it effecting an engine formula change within a few years just to stop it.

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Sure, HRC have every reason to sandbag given the way their 2012 bike was nobbled after showing out too strongly in early testing.

MM is able to win even with a bike which is not dominant as the 2016 season demonstrated, and must be heavily favoured for the 2017 title. I am just pleased as a Jorge fan that it doesn't look as though he has condemned himself to being s mid pack rider on a bike totally unsuited to him.

moto vudu said:

So that's a NO, you have nothing to back up your claim. 2015 may have had more front end crashes than this year.

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Given that the riders have continually spoken and this includes the one you want to .... about how the front end gives no warning sometimes and it just fails there is obviously a problem with the front. Whether they've had the same amount of crashes or not is immaterial when the riders who have spoken about the front have said continually that it gives no warning before crashing.

p4p1 said:

Given that the riders have continually spoken and this includes the one you want to .... about how the front end gives no warning sometimes and it just fails there is obviously a problem with the front. Whether they've had the same amount of crashes or not is immaterial when the riders who have spoken about the front have said continually that it gives no warning before crashing.

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That's a bad thing? Most of the riders have adapted and are impressively fast with this "POS" Michelin front. If it gives less warning before letting go compared to Bridgestones.... GREAT!! Adapt and be more precise! The riders who fail to ride with precision will not be in contention for the championship... change is a good thing.

moto vudu said:

Birdman, do you have a count for front end crashes in 2016 vs 2015? I'm curious if you have data to back up your claim.

JPS, you're a Stoner fanboy so of course you think everything that comes out of his mouth is gospel. Stoner said he thought the profiles at one of the preseason tests right? It could've been before Ducati managed to set the bike up to work with the new tires properly. Anyway, the fact still stands that no lap records would've been broken if the front & rear tire profiles were not working in unison.

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So your rebuttal right off the bat is to engage in ad hominem fallacy? Like I said, Stoner's feedback is legendary and has been validated numerous times by the people in the two teams he rode for.

I believe he talked about it in July after the Austria test.

Saying "the fact still stands" doesn't make it a fact. You forget F1 has a tire manufacturer (PIRELLI) that makes the shittiest racing tire I have ever seen...one that has an issue with major sidewall flex due to being unable to design for the levels of downforce run and mandated tires be run at a certain minimum PSI due to concerns over structural integrity. They have broken some circuit records throughout 2016 in spite of this. Doesn't make the tire any less ....... Same applies with the GP Michelin tires.

birdman said:

Data? Link? Press statement? No I watched the races and used my brain.

The front sucks. Plain and simple. The new front, introduced at Valencia, might not be so new afterall. I think it might have been the same front construction Lorenzo used to dominate early races such as Le Mans. Then it mysteriously disappeared until now when he was supposed to be no longer a threat. But, oh dear, this test has been a massive win so far, cant be understated how well he has adapted, his weak feeble brain, to ride the bike that the greatest said requires the most balls. Unreal. Prediction, new front on the way.

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I haven't read any articles either but would put it down to Michelin being unable to build a high edge grip soft carcass tyre like the Bridgestone that wouldnt fall to bits and delimitate making them look like a bunch of twats. I don't buy into the VR conspiracy about tyres, Michelin would have liked nothing more than to have tyres that performed better than the Bridgestone's to show off their capabilities to the world. There would be no benefit to them in trying to build tyres that the majority of riders would complain about, its just bad PR and detracts from the very reason they are involved in the series for.

They have evolved the tyres continuously throughout the season and spent loads of their own money to ensure they had a big selection of choices at each round. It has probably taken them this long to build a tyre that offered the high edge grip that JL likes and heavy braking characteristics that MM and VR like. It has been pretty clear this season that the bikes and riders the tyres favoured has been pretty dynamic. Michelin have been out of the series for 7 years and had very limited testing, when Bridgestone became the control tyre supplier they had been actively involved in the series in the years leading up to that point which would have made it a lot easier.

JPSLotus said:

So your rebuttal right off the bat is to engage in ad hominem fallacy? Like I said, Stoner's feedback is legendary and has been validated numerous times by the people in the two teams he rode for.

I believe he talked about it in July after the Austria test.

Saying "the fact still stands" doesn't make it a fact. You forget F1 has a tire manufacturer (PIRELLI) that makes the shittiest racing tire I have ever seen...one that has an issue with major sidewall flex due to being unable to design for the levels of downforce run and mandated tires be run at a certain minimum PSI due to concerns over structural integrity. They have broken some circuit records throughout 2016 in spite of this. Doesn't make the tire any less ....... Same applies with the GP Michelin tires.

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If you think everything Stoner says is 100% accurate then I don't know what to tell you. I don't doubt he has given some great feedback, but I also don't doubt that he has been wrong about things before.

moto vudu said:

So that's a NO, you have nothing to back up your claim. 2015 may have had more front end crashes than this year.

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It was the first year back for Michelin, there were numerous front end washouts with little or no warning for multiple riders, a tyre which had to be withdrawn because of a tendency to explode when employed on Ducatis, a wet tyre which delaminated without warning, and a different variety of wet tyre which Jorge couldn't get to work because he couldn't get heat into it, your boy himself had the most dnfs he has had for at least 16 years and probably ever, your boy's tyre choice was restricted at some tracks because particular Michelin tyres wouldn't work with the Yamaha, MM had an advantage at least in one race in changing conditions because his riding style which gets heat into a tyre quickly allowed him to change to a slick tyre earlier.

Do you want me to go further? Or would you rather continue to talk cod psychology as is your wont rather than bike racing in regard to which tyres are inarguably very important?.

michaelm said:

It was the first year back for Michelin, there were numerous front end washouts with little or no warning for multiple riders,

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There were numerous front end washouts last year with little or no warning, the riders obviously weren't able to prevent the crashes.

a tyre which had to be withdrawn because of a tendency to explode when employed on Ducatis,

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Rear tire exploded and all the riders seem to love the grip from the rear and state it's better than the Bridgestones.

a wet tyre which delaminated without warning

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That tends to happen when a soft wet tire is used on a track that has dried. The wet Bridgestones had severe degradation when used in conditions and for lengths of time they were not designed for.

a different variety of wet tyre which Jorge couldn't get to work because he couldn't get heat into it,

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Jorge couldn't get heat into it because he wasn't going fast enough. There's not a single rider on the grid that could've put heat in the tires going at the pace Jorge was. Jorge is a better rider than Pol and Bradley, yet they got heat into the wet Michelins. I don't buy that Jorge can't adapt his style enough to outperform Pol and Bradley on 2015 M1's.

your boy himself had the most dnfs he has had for at least 16 years and probably ever

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He made some mistakes plus an engine failure. DNF's are part of the game, can't win if you don't take risks. Your boy could make a lot of mistakes next year.

your boy's tyre choice was restricted at some tracks because particular Michelin tyres wouldn't work with the Yamaha

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Because of unusually cool temperatures.

MM had an advantage at least in one race in changing conditions because his riding style which gets heat into a tyre quickly allowed him to change to a slick tyre earlier.

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The RCV stresses the front tire more. The advantage MM had in the races with cooler temps would've been a disadvantage if the races had a hot track surface.

michaelm said:

It was the first year back for Michelin, there were numerous front end washouts with little or no warning for multiple riders, a tyre which had to be withdrawn because of a tendency to explode when employed on Ducatis, a wet tyre which delaminated without warning, and a different variety of wet tyre which Jorge couldn't get to work because he couldn't get heat into it, your boy himself had the most dnfs he has had for at least 16 years and probably ever, your boy's tyre choice was restricted at some tracks because particular Michelin tyres wouldn't work with the Yamaha, MM had an advantage at least in one race in changing conditions because his riding style which gets heat into a tyre quickly allowed him to change to a slick tyre earlier.

Do you want me to go further? Or would you rather continue to talk cod psychology as is your wont rather than bike racing in regard to which tyres are inarguably very important?.

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Agree, just take both the factory Yamaha's at Motegi.

Vudu everyone is entitled to their opinion but at times the problem with yours is it seems to be based on mental retardation.

moto vudu said:

If you think everything Stoner says is 100% accurate then I don't know what to tell you. I don't doubt he has given some great feedback, but I also don't doubt that he has been wrong about things before.

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Give some examples yourself of him giving wrong feedback. There are certainly examples of his feedback being correct despite being at variance with others, such as his conclusions about the new construction Bridgestone in 2012 (some bloke called Rossi subsequently said he was a "wizard" for predicting the later problems with that tyre) and his set-up of the 2007 Ducati was famously initially considered crazy by the Ducati guys.

The "facts" are that he is a double world champion who formed this impression after riding the bike rather than a keyboard warrior, and that there were numerous front tyre washouts in the recent season.

Again, the irony of you constantly complaining about Rossi "hating" given your obvious attitude towards several of his competitors is not lost on those you dispute on here, and such attitudes were actually the genesis of most Rossi "hating".

p4p1 said:

Vudu everyone is entitled to their opinion but at times the problem with yours is it seems to be based on mental retardation.

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michaelm said:

Give some examples yourself of him giving wrong feedback. There are certainly examples of his feedback being correct despite being at variance with others, such as his conclusions about the new construction Bridgestone in 2012 (some bloke called Rossi subsequently said he was a "wizard" for predicting the later problems with that tyre) and his set-up of the 2007 Ducati was famously initially considered crazy by the Ducati guys.

The "facts" are that he is a double world champion who formed this impression after riding the bike rather than a keyboard warrior, and that there were numerous front tyre washouts in the recent season.

Again, the irony of you constantly complaining about Rossi "hating" given your obvious attitude towards several of his competitors is not lost on those you dispute on here, and such attitudes were actually the genesis of most Rossi "hating".

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Why do you guys keep stating that like there aren't numerous front tire washouts every season?

Which of Rossi's competitors have I hated on? Lorenzo rode around a few wet tracks like he was on a parade lap so I criticize him for it. When he outperformed everyone like he did at Le Mans (won by 10 seconds) I had nothing negative to say about him. Rossi haters have nothing to negativity for him regardless of how well he performs. In fact, when Rossi does well they claim it's only because of some unfair advantage he must have been given.