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BJ.C
You can tell me yourself and stop hiding behind the ignore button. Oh wait, your really don't have me on the ignore button do you. Who do you think you are fooling? As I said before, I have toned down trying to fluster you, as last time you blew a gasket, I was genuinely concerned for your health. I forget sometimes that not everybody sees this space as just a place to ........ with people and now and then exchange some noteworthy thoughts. As I see it anyway, forums are merely a play ground, and nothing should ever be taken too personal as its just virtual words in virtual space. You can chose to ignore me, as I know my ways often are antagonistic, thought it seems you have been unsuccessful in actually ignoring me. No worries dude, I suppose we can't all be friends.
You can tell me yourself and stop hiding behind the ignore button. Oh wait, your really don't have me on the ignore button do you. Who do you think you are fooling? As I said before, I have toned down trying to fluster you, as last time you blew a gasket, I was genuinely concerned for your health. I forget sometimes that not everybody sees this space as just a place to ........ with people and now and then exchange some noteworthy thoughts. As I see it anyway, forums are merely a play ground, and nothing should ever be taken too personal as its just virtual words in virtual space. You can chose to ignore me, as I know my ways often are antagonistic, thought it seems you have been unsuccessful in actually ignoring me. No worries dude, I suppose we can't all be friends.
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Kropotkin
Sure there was! And all the ........ you tried to say applies to this incident too. "Rider B was ahead of Rider A....bla bla bla. Check again Krops, no contact was made until Capirossi was "ahead" of Harada. Are you going to now change history? There was 'space' there, and so by definition is a "gap"; Harada was NOT on the curbing, there was plenty of space for a bike to fit between him and the curbing! And you can also add somebody "lost the front". hahaha, That would be Harada of course, after Capirossi "went for a gap" and "did what it takes to win". You know, all those cliches you want to use to defend Marquez's barging into Lorenzo.
Krops, having met you, I must say you seemed a normal person (then again, what do pedophiles really look like,right?) Maybe I'm just a bit more adverse than you to riders putting themselves in situations that can lead to serious injury...regardless if I admire them, as you do Marky, as I suspect you defend him because he "won" this particular exchange. As I'm sure you were jumping for joy when Marky's vision was all ...... to hell and making a comeback to racing was a back burner issue to simply being able to see straight for the rest of his life. Me on the other hand, I'm reminded of particular races that could have ended in serious tears. Do you remember this race where Eddie Lawson ended up in a ditch at the Dutch TT in the yearly 90s? I do, he was battling with Schwantz for the lead. Its a great battle if I remember, but it all ended when Lawson (I think) tired to pass Schwantz (or vise versa). One of them "went for a gap" (and certainly much smaller than the one at Jerez13 or Argentina 98). I remember it because of the image of Lawson in a ditch and Schwantz carted off in a stretcher. Its one I remember because this was the first times I thought about the mortality of riders I cheered.
Somebody said on the thread that the speed the collision occurred between Marky & Jlo was not going to cause any injury or death. This is not true! Its unlikely, yes, but certainly possible. I'm reminded of a conversation I had with an AMA racer who said to me once "the fastest crashes I've had I have walked away from, but the crash I had at 40mph put me out for a year." <span style="font-size:14px;Let me ask you, what likely killed Simonchelli, falling off his bike OR the 400lbs of motorcycles that crashed into him? People approving of Marquez's propensity to risk colliding with another rider are not extrapolating what might happened had Lorenzo fallen off his bike in atypical fashion (which is what happened to Sic, this is the point I'm trying to make, something abnormal given the increased risk of the circumstance) where another rider might have been behind Marc attempting to avoid incident. This scenario happens all the time in racing where riders are in groupings. I'm not sure you have really thought this through, and seemingly chose only to grasp the plain dumb happenstance of the incident that occurred at Jerez. If you get ran over at 40mph you are ......! I know lately you have been mind reading "intent"; but can you also tell me all the possibilities of injury from being run over by a GP motorcycle at 40mph? Unlikely, yes, however its the atypical occurrence that resulted in Sic's death. You may or may not have lamented the death of Marco Simonchelli as much as some others; but there are plenty of members here who are applauding Marquez's willingness to collide, who posted poignant and moving thoughts, as well as some Stoner fans (gone Marquez fans to fill the void I suppose) who are also praising this incident with all manner of rationalizations. We certainly all have various sensibilities, but for me, I prefer to applaud the type of passing that Marquez exhibited at Jerez when he passed Rossi, or Pedrosa passing Lorenzo in the same race, or Marc passing Pedrosa at COTA, look again, all of them tight and examples of amazing 'real' "control"! That's what is exciting to me. You compared Marc to Spencer, Rossi, and particularly Stoner by saying he had the same "control as Stoner". The braking ERROR (or as you conclude was "no mistake") leading to a collision of another rider is certainly NOT of the type for which Stoner was known. Look again Krops, there was plenty of "gap" for Capirossi to attempt a pass on Harada. One you called "criminal".
Sure there was! And all the ........ you tried to say applies to this incident too. "Rider B was ahead of Rider A....bla bla bla. Check again Krops, no contact was made until Capirossi was "ahead" of Harada. Are you going to now change history? There was 'space' there, and so by definition is a "gap"; Harada was NOT on the curbing, there was plenty of space for a bike to fit between him and the curbing! And you can also add somebody "lost the front". hahaha, That would be Harada of course, after Capirossi "went for a gap" and "did what it takes to win". You know, all those cliches you want to use to defend Marquez's barging into Lorenzo.
Krops, having met you, I must say you seemed a normal person (then again, what do pedophiles really look like,right?) Maybe I'm just a bit more adverse than you to riders putting themselves in situations that can lead to serious injury...regardless if I admire them, as you do Marky, as I suspect you defend him because he "won" this particular exchange. As I'm sure you were jumping for joy when Marky's vision was all ...... to hell and making a comeback to racing was a back burner issue to simply being able to see straight for the rest of his life. Me on the other hand, I'm reminded of particular races that could have ended in serious tears. Do you remember this race where Eddie Lawson ended up in a ditch at the Dutch TT in the yearly 90s? I do, he was battling with Schwantz for the lead. Its a great battle if I remember, but it all ended when Lawson (I think) tired to pass Schwantz (or vise versa). One of them "went for a gap" (and certainly much smaller than the one at Jerez13 or Argentina 98). I remember it because of the image of Lawson in a ditch and Schwantz carted off in a stretcher. Its one I remember because this was the first times I thought about the mortality of riders I cheered.
Somebody said on the thread that the speed the collision occurred between Marky & Jlo was not going to cause any injury or death. This is not true! Its unlikely, yes, but certainly possible. I'm reminded of a conversation I had with an AMA racer who said to me once "the fastest crashes I've had I have walked away from, but the crash I had at 40mph put me out for a year." <span style="font-size:14px;Let me ask you, what likely killed Simonchelli, falling off his bike OR the 400lbs of motorcycles that crashed into him? People approving of Marquez's propensity to risk colliding with another rider are not extrapolating what might happened had Lorenzo fallen off his bike in atypical fashion (which is what happened to Sic, this is the point I'm trying to make, something abnormal given the increased risk of the circumstance) where another rider might have been behind Marc attempting to avoid incident. This scenario happens all the time in racing where riders are in groupings. I'm not sure you have really thought this through, and seemingly chose only to grasp the plain dumb happenstance of the incident that occurred at Jerez. If you get ran over at 40mph you are ......! I know lately you have been mind reading "intent"; but can you also tell me all the possibilities of injury from being run over by a GP motorcycle at 40mph? Unlikely, yes, however its the atypical occurrence that resulted in Sic's death. You may or may not have lamented the death of Marco Simonchelli as much as some others; but there are plenty of members here who are applauding Marquez's willingness to collide, who posted poignant and moving thoughts, as well as some Stoner fans (gone Marquez fans to fill the void I suppose) who are also praising this incident with all manner of rationalizations. We certainly all have various sensibilities, but for me, I prefer to applaud the type of passing that Marquez exhibited at Jerez when he passed Rossi, or Pedrosa passing Lorenzo in the same race, or Marc passing Pedrosa at COTA, look again, all of them tight and examples of amazing 'real' "control"! That's what is exciting to me. You compared Marc to Spencer, Rossi, and particularly Stoner by saying he had the same "control as Stoner". The braking ERROR (or as you conclude was "no mistake") leading to a collision of another rider is certainly NOT of the type for which Stoner was known. Look again Krops, there was plenty of "gap" for Capirossi to attempt a pass on Harada. One you called "criminal".
guys imho mistake or not it doesnt really matter, what matters is the 2nd position and its 4 more points, and marc is the one who got them in the end.
when you have marquez right behind you, you just dont leave the door open in the final corner, i think lorenzo said it himself that he should have taken a more defensive line
i think marc has stoner's riding style combined with rossi's overtaking, he's going to be fun to watch for sure.
lorenzo seems to have a head cool enough not to try anything like that on marquez, though its going to be tough to ride with him from now on
when you have marquez right behind you, you just dont leave the door open in the final corner, i think lorenzo said it himself that he should have taken a more defensive line
i think marc has stoner's riding style combined with rossi's overtaking, he's going to be fun to watch for sure.
lorenzo seems to have a head cool enough not to try anything like that on marquez, though its going to be tough to ride with him from now on
OK I just watched the video again, for the umpteenth time. From the overhead shot, you can see that by the time Lorenzo and Marquez touch, Marquez has scrubbed off easily enough speed to make the corner. It wouldn't have been pretty, but he would have made it. That was a clean, perfectly legal move. Overly ambitious, and if Lorenzo had braked earlier, he would have held 2nd.
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Kropotkin
Exactly, there is no rule that you have to take the perfect line through a corner. Mm took a line and Lorenzo took another which although was closer to HIS racing line, not others', meant nothing when someone else took a different line.
When Lorenzo hits Mm, and I say that because he turned into him, the first thing I see is MM's bike pick up which takes him closer to the edge of the track rather than saving him from running off.
Exactly, there is no rule that you have to take the perfect line through a corner. Mm took a line and Lorenzo took another which although was closer to HIS racing line, not others', meant nothing when someone else took a different line.
When Lorenzo hits Mm, and I say that because he turned into him, the first thing I see is MM's bike pick up which takes him closer to the edge of the track rather than saving him from running off.
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Kropotkin
........!
and Capirossi's move on Harada was "clean perfectly legal"... This is easily the most ridiculous thing you have ever written Krops. You are seeing what you want to see, besides it being completely FALSE. You couldn't debate me on the facts so you have simply rewritten the facts. The moon is made of cheese in your world.
........!
and Capirossi's move on Harada was "clean perfectly legal"... This is easily the most ridiculous thing you have ever written Krops. You are seeing what you want to see, besides it being completely FALSE. You couldn't debate me on the facts so you have simply rewritten the facts. The moon is made of cheese in your world.
Jumkie
It's like your eyes are worse than Marquez'. If you can't see the difference, there's no hope for you.
Lay off the tequila, Jum, it's affecting your eyesight. Capirossi entered the corner with the sole intention of barging Harada off the track. Marquez made an ambitious move which he could have pulled off if Lorenzo hadn't turned in on him. Watch the camera angle from behind, you can see how much speed Marquez has scrubbed off just before Lorenzo hit him.
It's like your eyes are worse than Marquez'. If you can't see the difference, there's no hope for you.
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woody996
Is there a rule not to torpedo another rider? So lets apply your logic to another incident, when Bautista crashed into Lorenzo in the first turn incident, it was just two guys taking different lines. After all, as you said, there is no rule that a rider take a "perfect line through a corner." So Bautista was just going to take a wide line, but stupid Lorenzo wanted to take a more 'normal' line, and the two collided.
Same .... with this incident, stupid Lorenzo applied the brakes to take a 'normal' line, but Marquez decided not to apply enough brakes, maybe like Bautista he was interested in taking a wide line, so wide that it would have taken him beyond the white line. Hey, whats the problem, its just two guys wanting to take different lines on a corner...no rule against that, right? (sarcasm)
woody996
Is there a rule not to torpedo another rider? So lets apply your logic to another incident, when Bautista crashed into Lorenzo in the first turn incident, it was just two guys taking different lines. After all, as you said, there is no rule that a rider take a "perfect line through a corner." So Bautista was just going to take a wide line, but stupid Lorenzo wanted to take a more 'normal' line, and the two collided.
Same .... with this incident, stupid Lorenzo applied the brakes to take a 'normal' line, but Marquez decided not to apply enough brakes, maybe like Bautista he was interested in taking a wide line, so wide that it would have taken him beyond the white line. Hey, whats the problem, its just two guys wanting to take different lines on a corner...no rule against that, right? (sarcasm)
woody996
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Kropotkin
With all do respect sir, as I said, you can't debate the facts so you chosen to rewrite them. You cannot know Marc's intent any more than I can read your mind. Besides, I am not debating his intent because its impossible to debate.
You have already declared Marc did 'not make a mistake' in that turn. So, my follow up question is:
Question: Did Marc apply brakes adequately to take a normal trajectory for that turn? YES or NO?
With all do respect sir, as I said, you can't debate the facts so you chosen to rewrite them. You cannot know Marc's intent any more than I can read your mind. Besides, I am not debating his intent because its impossible to debate.
You have already declared Marc did 'not make a mistake' in that turn. So, my follow up question is:
Question: Did Marc apply brakes adequately to take a normal trajectory for that turn? YES or NO?
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Krops, while Im at it, hate to get off on a tangent, as its best to just keep my posts short and walk you through the inconsistency of your take regarding Jerez...but
You mentioned that Marc was able to make up time on Lorenzo, and called it a game changer. You attributed this to Marc's talent (of course), but I must disagree, as I have also detected a change in the ability of riders to make up time after slight mistakes. Its the thing I mentioned about Rossi at Qatar. After a mistake, he was able to make up time and close the gap to the leaders. In fact, so did Crutchlow on Pedrosa. Again we saw this ability to make up time after mistakes, as we saw from Crutchlow at COTA. Then again by Marc at Jerez. I think this year's bikes a distinctly different in this regard to the 800s where before any slight deviation of a perfect performance was a strict relegation to whatever time you lost. This year there has been an improvement all around, and not just Marc-the KGOAT, but others as well have been able to advance toward the front even after slight mistakes. I haven't yet put my finger on it as to why this changed has occurred, but I have certainly detected it, and no, not just Marc has been able to do this.
You mentioned that Marc was able to make up time on Lorenzo, and called it a game changer. You attributed this to Marc's talent (of course), but I must disagree, as I have also detected a change in the ability of riders to make up time after slight mistakes. Its the thing I mentioned about Rossi at Qatar. After a mistake, he was able to make up time and close the gap to the leaders. In fact, so did Crutchlow on Pedrosa. Again we saw this ability to make up time after mistakes, as we saw from Crutchlow at COTA. Then again by Marc at Jerez. I think this year's bikes a distinctly different in this regard to the 800s where before any slight deviation of a perfect performance was a strict relegation to whatever time you lost. This year there has been an improvement all around, and not just Marc-the KGOAT, but others as well have been able to advance toward the front even after slight mistakes. I haven't yet put my finger on it as to why this changed has occurred, but I have certainly detected it, and no, not just Marc has been able to do this.
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sli-woody
Our respected friend Krops, being the de facto face of the argument in defense of Marquez has shrewdly elected not to answer my last question about Marquez's apllication of the brakes appropriately to make that last turn in a normal trajectory; yet he has said there was "no mistake" by the youngster. Pedrosa, the race winner said <span style="font-size:14px;"...if they hadn’t touched Marc would run out of track. So it means he was a little too late on the brakes." This is such an obvious truth that Krops and Company willingly ignore (including the mirror image opinion of his guest Mat Oxley).
At Round 2 in the Circuit of the Americas, we watched from turn 1. We were just beyond the fence, and had a perfect view of the track. Check the tape again, check out who ran tries to go inside on Pedrosa then runs wide at turn 1 (at the start of the race). Guess who? Part of me wishes now that he would have caused Pedrosa to crash out taking out both the Honda riders, just so now I could point to that incident (not to mention the TWICE overshots in the last lap at Jerez) to wiggle my finger at the PROPENSITY to be out of control on the brakes for the blind people now mounting a defense of the questionable racecraft). If it happens every now and then, well, its just an odd mistake, but lets be clear, this is a propensity if it happens often, Marquez misjudged braking into turn one at COTA, which I witnessed with my own eyes. He did again, mid lap at Jerez watch again WHAT HAPPENED IN THE BACK STRAIGHT, misjudged the slip stream resulting in a ERROR/MISTAKE to brake, elected to take the inside and ran wide (as per Earth's physics) lucky for Lorenzo he did not have to alter his line, and Marky floated past harmlessly wide at to the edge of the track). In both cases nobody really notices it because nobody was taken out, so the misguided conclusion is, who cares. Why? If you overshoot, its still a "mistake"! Even though Krops and Company will not admit it. BTW, note I said Lorenzo did not have to "alter his line". As part of the defense for Marc, we are reading that Lorenzo could have avoided this collision. I almost can't believe I'm reading this, as clearly Lorenzo was loaded up on the front (BECAUSE he was braking properly to negotiate that turn) YET, we now expected him to "brake some more" and simply change direction to avoid collision?! Breathtaking insight.
Looks like the collective overwhelming opinion has been to side with excitement and youthful temerity over actual facts.
Our respected friend Krops, being the de facto face of the argument in defense of Marquez has shrewdly elected not to answer my last question about Marquez's apllication of the brakes appropriately to make that last turn in a normal trajectory; yet he has said there was "no mistake" by the youngster. Pedrosa, the race winner said <span style="font-size:14px;"...if they hadn’t touched Marc would run out of track. So it means he was a little too late on the brakes." This is such an obvious truth that Krops and Company willingly ignore (including the mirror image opinion of his guest Mat Oxley).
At Round 2 in the Circuit of the Americas, we watched from turn 1. We were just beyond the fence, and had a perfect view of the track. Check the tape again, check out who ran tries to go inside on Pedrosa then runs wide at turn 1 (at the start of the race). Guess who? Part of me wishes now that he would have caused Pedrosa to crash out taking out both the Honda riders, just so now I could point to that incident (not to mention the TWICE overshots in the last lap at Jerez) to wiggle my finger at the PROPENSITY to be out of control on the brakes for the blind people now mounting a defense of the questionable racecraft). If it happens every now and then, well, its just an odd mistake, but lets be clear, this is a propensity if it happens often, Marquez misjudged braking into turn one at COTA, which I witnessed with my own eyes. He did again, mid lap at Jerez watch again WHAT HAPPENED IN THE BACK STRAIGHT, misjudged the slip stream resulting in a ERROR/MISTAKE to brake, elected to take the inside and ran wide (as per Earth's physics) lucky for Lorenzo he did not have to alter his line, and Marky floated past harmlessly wide at to the edge of the track). In both cases nobody really notices it because nobody was taken out, so the misguided conclusion is, who cares. Why? If you overshoot, its still a "mistake"! Even though Krops and Company will not admit it. BTW, note I said Lorenzo did not have to "alter his line". As part of the defense for Marc, we are reading that Lorenzo could have avoided this collision. I almost can't believe I'm reading this, as clearly Lorenzo was loaded up on the front (BECAUSE he was braking properly to negotiate that turn) YET, we now expected him to "brake some more" and simply change direction to avoid collision?! Breathtaking insight.
Looks like the collective overwhelming opinion has been to side with excitement and youthful temerity over actual facts.
