Moto2-Dorna's Latest Disaster or Trump Card?

While not being too familiar with all of the aspects of Moto2 for 2010, I can derive that they are all running Honda engines with separate chassis and aerodynamics developers at the prototype level, Ohlins, WP, Dunlop and Bremo taking care of the rest......

With aprilia set to pull out, who does this leave left? Are we looking at one of the biggest F-ups since A1 GP or could this be Dorna's trump card for improving the overall spectacle of Motogp as the 800's are still likely to bore throughout 2010.......

Having the same powerplant can be a distinct benefit for smaller teams, but does this necessarily translate to results, with the chassis and electronics becoming more important the egde will once again be gained with the dollar.

Without the traditional multi-manufacturer event, will the fans have less to get into or more.....certainly in A1 it is less, but the potential spectacle of the races in Moto2 if realized might take over and usher in a new one-bike rule across the board.....


Discuss

Call me pessimist, but I think it's going to be a big flop. One engine will not promote development as much and most manufactures won't be able to bringing Sponsors to this Championship, so it will just the particular Sponsors related to the Manufacturer. Why would Fiat sponsor a Team for example? In a couple of years no one would make enough money or care at international level and it will become a local Championship.

600cc would be fine, just the One Manufactures' engine rule gives few hope in my view.

Sorry... I had to edit that bit.

I'm really looking forward to it. I expect close racing with relatively (compared to 800cc) large grids filled with hungry riders looking to move up. Sounds like a recipe for great racing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Nov 21 2009, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Call me pessimist, but I think it's going to be a big flop. One engine will not promote development as much and most manufactures won't be able to bringing Sponsors to this Championship, so it will just the particular Sponsors related to the Manufacturer. Why would Fiat sponsor a Team for example? In a couple of years no one would make enough money or care at international level and it will become a local Championship.

600cc would be fine, just the One Manufactures' engine rule gives few hope in my view.

Sorry... I had to edit that bit.
The intent is to discourage engine development,its why they put in the claiming rule.It will be all about rider and chassis builder.Not being a fan of the 2 smokes,i am looking forward to Moto2 for the simple reason of it making escape from AMA easier for the US riders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Nov 21 2009, 06:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>While not being too familiar with all of the aspects of Moto2 for 2010, I can derive that they are all running Honda engines with separate chassis and aerodynamics developers at the prototype level, Ohlins, WP, Dunlop and Bremo taking care of the rest......

With aprilia set to pull out, who does this leave left? Are we looking at one of the biggest F-ups since A1 GP or could this be Dorna's trump card for improving the overall spectacle of Motogp as the 800's are still likely to bore throughout 2010.......

Having the same powerplant can be a distinct benefit for smaller teams, but does this necessarily translate to results, with the chassis and electronics becoming more important the egde will once again be gained with the dollar.

Without the traditional multi-manufacturer event, will the fans have less to get into or more.....certainly in A1 it is less, but the potential spectacle of the races in Moto2 if realized might take over and usher in a new one-bike rule across the board.....


Discuss

Aprilia isn't a problem b/c I'm sure another engineering firm can pick up the slack. Aprilia had yet to deliver anything to the teams, and some of the teams who were set to use the Aprilia bike made arrangements to test at Valencia for another chassis builder.

Moto2 definitely has some very serious hurdles to jump b/c the engineering companies could become all powerful. For example, Moriwaki could build the best chassis, aero package, and electronics package and as a result Moriwaki bikes could dominate.

What's to stop Moriwaki from charging 1M euros to run their bike? Nothing really.

The good news is that Moto2 has very low barriers to entry so theoretically Moriwaki's mega profits would encourage other third party chassis constructors into the series to break up the monopoly. Under the 250cc arrangement, the manufacturers had an almost unbreakable monopoly b/c the engines weren't available to anyone who wanted them. However, it is conceivable that the class could technically become a single make series for a period of time until another suitable competitor could challenge.

I think the long term outlook is good, but if you are interested in doom and gloom you should examine the situation with the Honda spec engine. Ten Kate have delayed delivery until MARCH 2010. That's cutting it a bit close, don't you think? We may not see engine parity on the grid in 2010 b/c many of the teams may get stuck trying to build their own Honda supersport engine. No telling what the Flamminis would do if they alter the spec engine rule.

I think it will be good.
The fact that electronics will be limited will make a great grid.

From MotoGP.com

Moto2 rules will allow for data loggers, ECU and timing transponders supplied by the organiser, with a maximum total cost of the ECU's components set at 650 euros. No other electronic control, nor datalogging systems, will be present on the bikes.

http://www.motogp.com/en/MotoGP+Basics/Moto2

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shovelhead @ Nov 21 2009, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think it will be good.
The fact that electronics will be limited will make a great grid.

From MotoGP.com

Moto2 rules will allow for data loggers, ECU and timing transponders supplied by the organiser, with a maximum total cost of the ECU's components set at 650 euros. No other electronic control, nor datalogging systems, will be present on the bikes.

http://www.motogp.com/en/MotoGP+Basics/Moto2

I don't think anyone knows what's going on with TC. It was first allowed, then banned, and after the announcement of a Dunlop control tire, Dorna announced they don't know what to do about TC.

It will probably end up being legal b/c they don't want any additional liability associated with high side crashes. Teams probably won't need it though.

Initially Moto2 will be viewed as a success. Grids are filled up with more teams waiting to get in and it will no doubt increase the interest for MotoGP race weekends in general. Question is how it will work over time. 3rd and 4th season will be telling.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Nov 22 2009, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think anyone knows what's going on with TC. It was first allowed, then banned, and after the announcement of a Dunlop control tire, Dorna announced they don't know what to do about TC.

It will probably end up being legal b/c they don't want any additional liability associated with high side crashes. Teams probably won't need it though.

He he, has long as Dorna or any one involved can stay away from US law system the will be just fine.
Ask any team if they would want a state of the art TC-system and they would gladly accept.
The bikes don't need them but just about any bike will be faster over race distance with a dialed in TC.

Personally, I think the 600/1000 cc classes are too much like superbike.

If they don't put traction control (even a standard one) on these bikes then it is possible that a WSS 600 fitted with it (yes they have it) may go faster.

If the WSS bikes go faster then what is the point of moto2?

Not a big fan, I like ring dingers and that beaut smelling smoke.

I think the racing will be good, but when the 1000's come back it will be an expensive SBK paddock (but really who could afford GP anyway?)

Okay then............In 8 years time there will only be 1 competition. WSBK and Motogp will merge.

That is where this is going.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Nov 22 2009, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The intent is to discourage engine development,its why they put in the claiming rule.It will be all about rider and chassis builder.Not being a fan of the 2 smokes,i am looking forward to Moto2 for the simple reason of it making escape from AMA easier for the US riders.

Blasphemer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Nov 22 2009, 02:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Personally, I think the 600/1000 cc classes are too much like superbike.

If they don't put traction control (even a standard one) on these bikes then it is possible that a WSS 600 fitted with it (yes they have it) may go faster.

If the WSS bikes go faster then what is the point of moto2?

Not a big fan, I like ring dingers and that beaut smelling smoke.

I think the racing will be good, but when the 1000's come back it will be an expensive SBK paddock (but really who could afford GP anyway?)

Okay then............In 8 years time there will only be 1 competition. WSBK and Motogp will merge.

That is where this is going.

Unless flamini drasticly lower the weight limit in WSS I think these bikes will be faster. They will have both more power and less weight and it will result in faster lap times. Performance wise TC is not about taking 1 sec off the lap time but enabling the rider to stay closer to the edge all the time and maintain lap times at the end of the race.

But I agree they are to similar to the SBK classes

I think the first season will be punctuated by a spread out field. How many of the teams have actually got to the track so far? Not many. So the experienced race teams will be a considerable margin in front because they can apply their already significant experience immediately and get it 90% right. What about the rest of the field who only get it 70% right and have to keep going back to the drawing board. They will be along way back and I am sure will struggle with funding.

In the fullness of time it will be the same as every other form of racing. The good teams will run at the front, the average teams will have a few lucky races and the bad teams will get lapped. After all racing is racing.

I am looking forward to Moto 2 because despite what I said above when everything changes some unlikely team or rider can come out of the gate with everything just right and blow everyone else away leaving the established teams and pecking order with egg on their face and a new star is born. Love it!

The other thing you can count on is that just when it starts to get good, Dorna will change the rules! Just like gravity this is one of the undeniable laws of the universe.

By the way...good topic Talpa! Hopefully will be a good discussion. There are some people's opinions I look forward to reading.

Moto2 is a bandaid solution, Something needed to be done with the 250 class but i dont think moto2 is the right answer. As club or domestic series it would be great but not at a world championship level.Initially it would be viewed a sucess with big grids, close racing etc but the novelty factor will soon ware off....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alex29 @ Nov 22 2009, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Moto2 is a bandaid solution, Something needed to be done with the 250 class but i dont think moto2 is the right answer. As club or domestic series it would be great but not at a world championship level.Initially it would be viewed a sucess with big grids, close racing etc but the novelty factor will soon ware off....

I'm hoping that the class will eventually become a testing ground for engine manufacturers as well as chassis builders. It would be nice if they had somekind of rule that prohibited participation in both Moto2 and GP so the teams would always be moving up and down depending upon budget and performance.

I think Shovelhead pointed out something really important in his post. As far as we know, Dorna are still planning on implementing programmable spec ECUs and data logging equipment. I believe this is Dorna's first attempt to police the sport via electronic means by using the ECU to control the rev limit and the data logger to make sure the output from the ECU is legal under the rules. Maybe this is a dress rehearsal for the future?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Nov 22 2009, 11:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm hoping that the class will eventually become a testing ground for engine manufacturers as well as chassis builders. It would be nice if they had somekind of rule that prohibited participation in both Moto2 and GP so the teams would always be moving up and down depending upon budget and performance.

I think Shovelhead pointed out something really important in his post. As far as we know, Dorna are still planning on implementing programmable spec ECUs and data logging equipment. I believe this is Dorna's first attempt to police the sport via electronic means by using the ECU to control the rev limit and the data logger to make sure the output from the ECU is legal under the rules. Maybe this is a dress rehearsal for the future?

Dunno Lex - how will this be a testing ground for manufacturers when there's only one factory involved? With the field to itself Honda has no impetus to innovate. Chassis development
designed exclusively for the purpose of obtaining the best performance with the Honda engine
makes it all feel like a bit like a exhalted version of the old downhill derby where everyone is trying
make something that looks different via different paint jobs and the additions of fins or
spoilers, but in the final analysis end up with cars that aren't much faster than the ones that rolled down the hill in competitions of decades past. If there's no competition between the manufacturers of engines it all seems like glorified club racing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Nov 23 2009, 01:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the first season will be punctuated by a spread out field. How many of the teams have actually got to the track so far? Not many. So the experienced race teams will be a considerable margin in front because they can apply their already significant experience immediately and get it 90% right. What about the rest of the field who only get it 70% right and have to keep going back to the drawing board. They will be along way back and I am sure will struggle with funding.

Nah, most teams have professional builders behind them and just like the rest use off the shelf brakes and suspension parts. It's no magic to build a fast bike today, just money. And the money will play a role as they allways do. I wouldn't expect much more spread than in the 250 class

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Nov 23 2009, 07:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Dunno Lex - how will this be a testing ground for manufacturers when there's only one factory involved? With the field to itself Honda has no impetus to innovate. Chassis development
designed exclusively for the purpose of obtaining the best performance with the Honda engine
makes it all feel like a bit like a exhalted version of the old downhill derby where everyone is trying
make something that looks different via different paint jobs and the additions of fins or
spoilers, but in the final analysis end up with cars that aren't much faster than the ones that rolled down the hill in competitions of decades past. If there's no competition between the manufacturers of engines it all seems like glorified club racing.

Engine development can't happen under the current rules arrangement, but I'm hoping it will be introduced in the future. They need to test their ability to police the sport via data recorders and spec-ECUs before they go full prototype or production-derived.

I don't know how they can keep costs down, but they do need a place for non-GP engine builders to work on their craft. I suppose they can mandate the use of certain materials and mandate spring valves. They might also try imposing bore stroke rules, min weight, rev-limit, etc. The point is just to let people work on their engine prototyping. If Dorna always keep a contract for a customer engine, the sport will remain cheap.

This is the latest tweet from Bradley Smith

BradleySmith38

mmmm, not sure what to make of aprilia pulling out of Moto2. Its a big blow, but i think it will make the racing a little closer and cheaper

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shovelhead @ Nov 24 2009, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is the latest tweet from Bradley Smith

BradleySmith38

mmmm, not sure what to make of aprilia pulling out of Moto2. Its a big blow, but i think it will make the racing a little closer and cheaper

I was thinking about this move too. Lex, do you have a conspiracy theory here? Did any of your confidential sources mention Infront while you were meeting in a back alley last night?