Moto2-Dorna's Latest Disaster or Trump Card?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Nov 24 2009, 08:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was thinking about this move too. Lex, do you have a conspiracy theory here? Did any of your confidential sources mention Infront while you were meeting in a back alley last night?
heres hoping 1000cc of semi-production rsv4 has swayed aprilia to concentrate on the premier class and not pull out permanently..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Nov 24 2009, 01:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was thinking about this move too. Lex, do you have a conspiracy theory here? Did any of your confidential sources mention Infront while you were meeting in a back alley last night?

InFront force Aprilia to pull out of Moto2? Right now I don't see it, but InFront have yet to announce the new spec class. The RSV4 isn't technically legal for WSBK competition, but what else is new in the world of superbikes. I suppose InFront might have some leverage over Aprilia.

Several legitimate stories are flying around about internal conflicts at Aprilia related to the loss of the final 250GP championship. I think that is a more likely scenario.

I wonder if the internal conflicts may be related to WSBK. If Aprilia are indeed going to run 250s in a new WSBK spec class, they would certainly want to win the final 2009 championship to make it appear as though 250GP still lives on in WSBK. Now that they have lost, the class may have much less appeal.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shovelhead @ Nov 24 2009, 08:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is the latest tweet from Bradley Smith

BradleySmith38

mmmm, not sure what to make of aprilia pulling out of Moto2. Its a big blow, but i think it will make the racing a little closer and cheaper
Ty
Gonna look for tweets.lol.
not a lot on bradders face book on the other hand Danny & Scott are usually busy and have some good banter..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Nov 24 2009, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was thinking about this move too. Lex, do you have a conspiracy theory here? Did any of your confidential sources mention Infront while you were meeting in a back alley last night?
I thought it was pretty widely accepted that Aprilia were pulling out of Moto2 to get a head start on developing a prototype chassis so they can enter an RSV4 powered grand prix bike in 2011 or 2012. Am I missing the point?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Nov 24 2009, 08:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I thought it was pretty widely accepted that Aprilia were pulling out of Moto2 to get a head start on developing a prototype chassis so they can enter an RSV4 powered grand prix bike in 2011 or 2012. Am I missing the point?

I've been giving it a think, and I've come to the conclusion that IMS could be behind it. No evidence, just saying they theoretically could be. IMS did say recently that they were mulling over the idea of legally challenging Moto2 b/c they're very angry to hear about the new production-derived 1000cc rules.

Hear are a couple of scenarios that could be in play:

1. IMS have bought Aprilia's allegiance or they are going to buy Aprilia's allegiance by giving them a commercial rights contract. The contract is exclusive to WSBK for a set amount of time. Aprilia have to pull out to get the money.

2. IMS is threatening Aprilia with some kind of retribution if they don't drop Moto2. Technically the RSV4 is not legally homologated according to any rule set I've seen. I find this scenario difficult to believe b/c the WSBK ranks are so thin at this point.

3. Aprilia know IMS is getting ready to go to war with the FIM; Aprilia are not interested in a class that will be subject to severe legal scrutiny and possible rules changes due to litigation.

Aprilia's official press release said they were withdrawing from competition b/c it would hurt their brand identity to race another manufacturers engine. They've known about the engine all along so why would they aggravate Dorna, make enemies in the Moto2 paddock, insult Honda (the MSMA). Didn't they say just a few days ago that they were hoping to get into GP? Good luck.

Doesn't it seem like IMS are up to something? They've handed Ducati 200cc. They've let Aprilia and BMW race bikes that are NOT in production. They are making friends b/c they are worried about something. I wouldn't put it past them to buy Kawasaki's allegiance either.

Something is in the works at the MSMA and the FIM that they are very worried about.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Nov 25 2009, 07:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've been giving it a think, and I've come to the conclusion that IMS could be behind it. No evidence, just saying they theoretically could be. IMS did say recently that they were mulling over the idea of legally challenging Moto2 b/c they're very angry to hear about the new production-derived 1000cc rules.

Hear are a couple of scenarios that could be in play:

1. IMS have bought Aprilia's allegiance or they are going to buy Aprilia's allegiance by giving them a commercial rights contract. The contract is exclusive to WSBK for a set amount of time. Aprilia have to pull out to get the money.

2. IMS is threatening Aprilia with some kind of retribution if they don't drop Moto2. Technically the RSV4 is not legally homologated according to any rule set I've seen. I find this scenario difficult to believe b/c the WSBK ranks are so thin at this point.

3. Aprilia know IMS is getting ready to go to war with the FIM; Aprilia are not interested in a class that will be subject to severe legal scrutiny and possible rules changes due to litigation.

Aprilia's official press release said they were withdrawing from competition b/c it would hurt their brand identity to race another manufacturers engine. They've known about the engine all along so why would they aggravate Dorna, make enemies in the Moto2 paddock, insult Honda (the MSMA). Didn't they say just a few days ago that they were hoping to get into GP? Good luck.

Doesn't it seem like IMS are up to something? They've handed Ducati 200cc. They've let Aprilia and BMW race bikes that are NOT in production. They are making friends b/c they are worried about something. I wouldn't put it past them to buy Kawasaki's allegiance either.

Something is in the works at the MSMA and the FIM that they are very worried about.

LOL one of those far out again.
What kind of exclusivity could IMS possibly offer aprilia, only RSV engines on the grid?
As Allways there is a playroom for the manufacturer to produce the # of bikes required. RSV4 factory are produced in numbers, I've seen a few live.

Are you saying they insult Honda for pulling out or saying it hurt their brand identity? That's a bit over the top. There are no need for Aprilia here. There are plenty others to take their place so neither Dorna nor Honda has anything to be aggravated over.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Nov 25 2009, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>LOL one of those far out again.
What kind of exclusivity could IMS possibly offer aprilia, only RSV engines on the grid?
As Allways there is a playroom for the manufacturer to produce the # of bikes required. RSV4 factory are produced in numbers, I've seen a few live.

Are you saying they insult Honda for pulling out or saying it hurt their brand identity? That's a bit over the top. There are no need for Aprilia here. There are plenty others to take their place so neither Dorna nor Honda has anything to be aggravated over.

It was supposed to be far out. No evidence exists to suggest that IMS have influenced Aprilia's withdraw from Moto2.

By exclusivity I mean that IMS perhaps have given Aprilia commercial rights money to run 4-stroke equipment only in WSBK. BMW might have signed up as well.

There have been lots of rumors floating around that the Japanese are trying to return WSBK to a largely stock series that is run primarily by privateers with no factory investment. Since neither the Aprilia nor the BMW are legal under the homologation rules (unless they are stockpiling them in a warehouse somewhere) it may be possible that they have signed an agreement with IMS.

WSBK is packing in the factory teams. They wrote new rules for Triumph and Ducati, and they allowed Aprilia and BMW to run illegal bikes. I think they are up to something, and it is probably related to swaying the MSMA. If they win Kawasaki, IMS may control the MSMA. IMS will be relying on Ducati, Piaggio Group, and Kawasaki to fight the GP forces of Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki.

I don't know if BMW, KTM, or Triumph have a say in the MSMA, but if they do you can almost guarantee they will side with WSBK.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Nov 26 2009, 05:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It was supposed to be far out. No evidence exists to suggest that IMS have influenced Aprilia's withdraw from Moto2.
The true sign of off season
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>There have been lots of rumors floating around that the Japanese are trying to return WSBK to a largely stock series that is run primarily by privateers with no factory investment.
I belive that they did that as early as when the control tire were introduced. They pulled out their official factory teams and let Yamaha Italy, Ten Kate Honda and Kawazaki - some german realation represent them. Of course these also rely heavily on factory support and became after a year or two indistinguishable from pure factory teams.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Since neither the Aprilia nor the BMW are legal under the homologation rules (unless they are stockpiling them in a warehouse somewhere) it may be possible that they have signed an agreement with IMS.
You keep saying this, based on what? AFAIK they are not required to sell the full amout before they can race, and they are selling the bikes in some quantities so I don't know if there is any issues at all reagarding homologation of these bikes. I'm to lazy to look up the ragulations but I suspect they are well within the rules and will fullfill their obligations regaring sold homologated units without a problem. That's more than can be said about the Petronas bike.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>WSBK is packing in the factory teams. They wrote new rules for Triumph and Ducati,
You mean the 675cc tripple? I'm not sure but I suspect that was written a decade or two ago.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Nov 26 2009, 04:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The true sign of off season

I belive that they did that as early as when the control tire were introduced. They pulled out their official factory teams and let Yamaha Italy, Ten Kate Honda and Kawazaki - some german realation represent them. Of course these also rely heavily on factory support and became after a year or two indistinguishable from pure factory teams.

You keep saying this, based on what? AFAIK they are not required to sell the full amout before they can race, and they are selling the bikes in some quantities so I don't know if there is any issues at all reagarding homologation of these bikes. I'm to lazy to look up the ragulations but I suspect they are well within the rules and will fullfill their obligations regaring sold homologated units without a problem. That's more than can be said about the Petronas bike.

You mean the 675cc tripple? I'm not sure but I suspect that was written a decade or two ago.

I'm just repeating what Batta said.

I'm also examining the situation. Japanese manufacturers like Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki who have rich GP heritage prefer to develop technology and race in GP. Manufacturers that don't have a rich GP heritage appear to be more interested in WSBK. When votes for rules changes come up, IMS needs to be sure it has the manufacturers on it's side. They need BMW, Aprilia, Ducati, and possibly Kawasaki to counteract the votes from the manufacturers who have a GP preference.

Ducati, Aprilia, BMW, and Triumph have all gotten favors recently. IMS might have signed Kawasaki up as well b/c they seem pretty gung-ho even in this down economy. IMS needs to pack the MSMA with people who are friendly to the idea that SBKs should be a legitimate venue for parts prototyping and factory development.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Nov 26 2009, 08:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm just repeating what Batta said.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>
I'm happy to discuss your wild theories and conspiracies but don't send me on a ghost chase only to findbig moth batta's concerns from FEBRUARY! Are you for REAL. Talk about BS!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>
I'm also examining the situation. Japanese manufacturers like Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki who have rich GP heritage prefer to develop technology and race in GP. Manufacturers that don't have a rich GP heritage appear to be more interested in WSBK. When votes for rules changes come up, IMS needs to be sure it has the manufacturers on it's side. They need BMW, Aprilia, Ducati, and possibly Kawasaki to counteract the votes from the manufacturers who have a GP preference.
It's easy to agree in what you say here. Problem it that IMS got no leverage on the factories what so ever so there is no reason to assume that they will vote any different than what gain them self and no one else.

Ducati, Aprilia, BMW, and Triumph have all gotten favors recently.

More ......... There are no favors given except a few might consider the 1200cc limit a favor, others would call it black mail and defiantly no lost love between Ducati and IMS.
The rest rely on well established rules with no favors what so ever.
Since February both Aprillia and BMW has proven serious in putting their bikes on the production line and sold loads of the bikes. This is definatly not like the Petronas bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Nov 27 2009, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's easy to agree in what you say here. Problem it that IMS got no leverage on the factories what so ever so there is no reason to assume that they will vote any different than what gain them self and no one else.

Ducati, Aprilia, BMW, and Triumph have all gotten favors recently.

More ......... There are no favors given except a few might consider the 1200cc limit a favor, others would call it black mail and defiantly no lost love between Ducati and IMS.
The rest rely on well established rules with no favors what so ever.
Since February both Aprillia and BMW has proven serious in putting their bikes on the production line and sold loads of the bikes. This is definatly not like the Petronas bike.

Batta was going to sue IMS but the entire situation dissipated. It wasn't b/c BMW and Aprilia led him to a warehouse and showed him 500 examples of the RSV4 and S1000RR

In 2007, after the inception of the 800cc GP, the manufacturers got together and laid out a plan for WSBK to be implemented by 2010. The MSMA wanted to run largely stock equipment and they wanted OEM withdrawal or drastic reduction in factory involvement. They also raised the homologation requirements six-fold by raising the min number of units from 500 to 3,000!

Since 2007 Triumph has been added to WSS by getting a displacement allowance. Ducati, who've been running heavily-modified, massively-oversquare 999Rs, said they wanted 200cc or they would withdraw. In 2009 IMS added two factories that did not meet homologation requirements, according to Batta who was willing to sue IMS. IMS also announced a 1-make WSS-undercard, and though I have no evidence, I have a strange suspicion that it could be 250 2-strokes. At first I thought it might be Aprilia, but I think KTM makes more sense if they are still in business in 2010.

The Flamminis are packing the MSMA with people who are friendly to the idea of factory involvement in WSBK b/c the factory teams equal $$$$$$$$$ to the commercial rights holders. In the past (2003) they relied on Ducati to keep factory teams alive in WSBK, but the 1200cc request showed that Ducati were interested in reducing their investment in WSBK. IMS added two new teams in haste and they inherited Kawasaki. Game, set, match for WSBK.

Moto2 and 1000cc MotoGP are the next big match, it looks like Dorna may be in position to win. This war could cause very serious problems, but GP lacks the manufacturer support they need to turn the tide in their favor. Production-derived engines is obviously intended to get Aprilia and BMW into the sport ASAP so they can rally the manufacturers against IMS.

Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki want to get their ducks in a row. They have a rich GP history and they want to spend their development money in GP. They DO NOT want to spend tens of millions running SBK programs at the international or national level. They cannot get their ducks in a row, until they get other manufacturers to join them in GP and abandon their factory WSBK efforts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Nov 27 2009, 09:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Batta was going to sue IMS but the entire situation dissipated. It wasn't b/c BMW and Aprilia led him to a warehouse and showed him 500 examples of the RSV4 and S1000RR
You have to start documenting some of this stuff. The only thing I can find is Batta claiming "Everyone know the RCV4 is a prototype" and someone seen some strange injectors. Soon after the thing got quite and no wonder. The bike was hot as hell and sold well despite a heavy price tag.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Since 2007 Triumph has been added to WSS by getting a displacement allowance.
I won't rule out the possibility that this was a new rule allowing Triumph to run their 675 although it's not at all controversial and to claim it is a favor is a loong stretch. Evil tongues might even claim that denying Triumph would have been doing them a favor, avoiding the embarrassment.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>In 2009 IMS added two factories that did not meet homologation requirements, according to Batta who was willing to sue IMS.
Well, this is ......... IMS added nothing, but Aprilia and BMW entered as planed and announced years before. Very few bikes meet the production qty in february of the introduction year. The rules allow for this and so this is NOT a violation of the homologation regulations. Batta only assumed they wouldn't produce the required amount. He got very silent as the bike sold in quantities.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>The Flamminis are packing the MSMA with people who are friendly to the idea of factory involvement in WSBK b/c the factory teams equal $$$$$$$$$ to the commercial rights holders. In the past (2003) they relied on Ducati to keep factory teams alive in WSBK, but the 1200cc request showed that Ducati were interested in reducing their investment in WSBK.
LOL, That's how you creatively adjust reality to your theories. Ducati had a black hole money drain in the WSBK effort as the 999 in reality had a prototype engine and it had to be to competitive. Show me one single company who want to throw money away for no real gain? Ducati has proven that their factory and satellite teams are just as serious as before, they just didn't want to waste money on prototype engines when the rest had cheap lightly tuned production engines.

The BMW isn't even on sale yet in most markets. They have 6 months to make 500 units; 1 years to make 1,000 units, and they were supposed to have 3,000 by the end of 2010, but I believe they just changed the rules so that 2010 is 2000 units.

The rulebook states very clearly that 125 examples must be produced by the time the homologation application is filed, AND THE BIKE MUST BE ON SALE TO THE PUBLIC. That provision has never been satisfied and I highly doubt that the BMW or Aprilia will meet the homologation quantities which is why they resolved to change the rules. I guess technically Aprilia have homologated WSBK bikes before so they were actually supposed to have 250 on hand when the homologated the bike, and 1000 units produced by the end of 2009.

Nobody cares b/c it would be an impossible case to litigate and teams like Alstare don't want to run privateer teams with stock equipment. Batta can't get his millions unless Aprilia and BMW can cast MSMA votes.

How was the 999R a prototype engine? The 749 and 999 share the same block. The 999R was an overbored 999 (4mm) with heavily modified connecting rods that shared the same dimensions as those the from 749. In effect, it was a 14mm overbored 749R. They also redesigned the head with larger valves. All R bikes are built in 500 unit quantities.

I don't see how the engine was prototype. Ducati was just allowed to tune the engine to a much higher state than the 4 cylinder bikes it was racing against.

In a interview with Bayliss a while back he described the 999 as more of a GP bike than a superbike. Maybe not a prototype but heavily modified, how else would it be competitive against 1000cc 4's??