MalaysianGP 2017

Jumkie said:

Hahaha Pov, in the indomitable words of Ham Porter, "You're killing me smalls."

Well then, what do you want? Pedrosa to call you from his yacht at tell you personally he let Marc have 4th after setting pole? You act as if Pedro letting Marc by cheapens his season, as you refuse to acknowledge it. I certainly don't think that, it was right in 06, still all right in 2017. Pedrosa is a team player to gift the position to Marc. It's like you say, a team sport.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

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As I have said, I lean towards Dovi winning anyway, but don’t see how there can be certainty about team orders not being involved just as there can be no certainty Lorenzo would have won but for team orders as you correctly argue.

Lorenzo clearly has been almost invariably smashed by Dovi all year, but this was not the same conditions as have applied all year, it was a full wet race and if an individual win was his only priority Lorenzo could have afforded to take more risks than Dovi in the peculiar circumstances of this race. He did obviously almost crash out anyway.

Jumkie said:

Hahaha Pov, in the indomitable words of Ham Porter, "You're killing me smalls."

Well then, what do you want? Pedrosa to call you from his yacht at tell you personally he let Marc have 4th after setting pole? You act as if Pedro letting Marc by cheapens his season, as you refuse to acknowledge it. I certainly don't think that, it was right in 06, still all right in 2017. Pedrosa is a team player to gift the position to Marc. It's like you say, a team sport.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

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Pedrosa qualified on pole in dry 100 degree conditions, the race was wet. Next

So Krop in his article talks about tin foil hats when mentioning mapping 8 meaning let Dovi by. Then someone inside Ducati according to the article Pov quoted confirmed that mapping 8 was indeed a reminder to let him by. Lorenzo states that he didn't see the reminder but knew what he had to do anyway.

Jum has totally lost it for some reason when discussing what are at this stage confirmed team orders. It's easy to say team orders haven't effected anything because Dovi may have got past Lorenzo but cast your minds back to Motegi when Petrucci ran wide to let Dovi through. If that move has to come a few corners later Dovi probably isn't close enough when Marquez makes his mistake to pull off that incredible move to take 1st. That 10 point swing means the championship is still alive. Ducati have cheapened Dovi's results IMO, Dovi didn't need the help of others on the Ducati and in all likelihood their help will have done nothing in the end net him the title but has IMO made Ducati look bad.

povol said:

Pedrosa qualified on pole in dry 100 degree conditions, the race was wet. Next

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Pedrosa has struggled unbelievably in the wet this year. Said that when he realised it was gonna rain in Sepang he thought he might come last but in the end had his best wet result of the year in 5th finishing like 15 or so seconds behind Marquez. Definitely team orders to make sure Pedrosa let Marquez beat him :giggle:

povol said:

Pedrosa qualified on pole in dry 100 degree conditions, the race was wet. Next

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What I like about this comment is that you've repeated it buddy, twice silly. It really does illustrate how depleted you are to make a reasonable response to an absurd point, as if a pole achieved in the dry has never translated into a podium in the wet. You're clutching a straws here brother, and with it .... away lots of your race take credibility to double down on your ridiculous claims that Lorenzo's win was a lock, a guaranteed and that he faked an almost crash to let Dovi by to supposedly follow team orders.

According to Pov logic, Pedrosa's pole performance is meaningless because it was achieved in the DRY, the race was in the rain, add this to the ridiculous takes you've made so far on the subject, you're making yourself look worse. I'll debunk it below, wait for it. I wonder how many serious informed members here would agree that there is no correlation between qualifying and race even when conditions change? Anybody want to align themselves with this take, JP, P4/1, anybody else?


You've repeatedly thrown your support at Pedrosa calling him one of the truly great riders, a deserving factory fixture, and here you throw all that away to advance another untenable position that because qualifying was in different conditions therefore, your silly logic goes, Pedrosa couldn't have challenged for the top positions; except he did! Top 5. None the less Pedrosa came exactly one position away from Marquez! Marquez finished 4th, Pedrosa finished 5th.

There are many examples of qualifying conditions different to race, in fact it's never the exact conditions, wet dry, or otherwise. Here you've repeated the disinformed (as opposed to misinformed, there is a difference) that because qual was dry race wet there can NOT be any meaningful correlation to a rider's performance carried over from qualifying to race, yet it's usually the RULE not the exception! The top qualifiers are almost always the top finishers in the race, rain or shine genius.

Now Pov, you'll need to defend the notion that qualifying position and race position when done in different conditions does not correlate. According to Pov, there is no relationship between qualifying dry and wet race performance.

Let's test Povol's claim:

Qualifying DRY:

PEDROSA, ZARCO, DOVI, ROSSI, Vinalez, LORENZO, MARQUEZ

Race WET:

DOVI, LORENZO, ZARCO, MARQUEZ, PEDROSA, Petrucci, ROSSI

That's weird Povol, 6 of the top 7 race positions were exactly in the top 7 qualifying positions, only Viñalez and Petrucci were not on both lists.

So Pov, your silly point that Pedrosa's pole position couldn't possibly be relevant to race finishing order is as ABSURD as your silly claim that Lorenzo pulled over from a "guaranteed win" faking a near crash to follow team orders. Looks like there equal "evidence " that Pedrosa indeed rode shotgun (or .....) to Marc Marquez.


If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

You're right Jum, Pedrosa hasn't struggled in the wet at all this year. Just look at his excellent results in the wet.

Just like all the Hondas have been super consistent this year.

Let's also ignore that Marquez had showed more pace over the weekend than Pedrosa but crashed in qualifying. But that's not at all important.

p4p1 said:

So Krop in his article talks about tin foil hats when mentioning mapping 8 meaning let Dovi by. Then someone inside Ducati according to the article Pov quoted confirmed that mapping 8 was indeed a reminder to let him by. Lorenzo states that he didn't see the reminder but knew what he had to do anyway.

Jum has totally lost it for some reason when discussing what are at this stage confirmed team orders. It's easy to say team orders haven't effected anything because Dovi may have got past Lorenzo but cast your minds back to Motegi when Petrucci ran wide to let Dovi through. If that move has to come a few corners later Dovi probably isn't close enough when Marquez makes his mistake to pull off that incredible move to take 1st. That 10 point swing means the championship is still alive. Ducati have cheapened Dovi's results IMO, Dovi didn't need the help of others on the Ducati and in all likelihood their help will have done nothing in the end net him the title but has IMO made Ducati look bad.

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A few pages back we already established that you, like Pov, are intent in reframing the point of debate. You must, because you simply took on an untenable position. You come back to: 'but look, Ducati had team orders." I'll quote 33Coupe again here "nobody is disputing team order genius."

Repeat that P4. The existence of Ducati team orders is not in dispute (and for that mayter, Honda team orders, simply because they've not admitted it).

Are you going to find another cryptic quote to now say, Jum, look here Ducati had team orders? You might, because frankly you haven't, like Pov or JP, successfully argued the actual dispute, being Andrea Dovizioso won the position from his teammate as much as Marc Marquez won it from his. You have employed a double standard, for Dovi you insisted Lorenzo pulled over, on an almost crash no less, in the rain I might add. For Marquez, you insist no team orders were on effect, a moot point because Marc is just better than Pedro. Except in both cases, Dovi and Marc have bested their teammates regularly, rain or shine, and both came exactly one position behind their contending teammate. You're fooled by Ducati's forthright commentary though still cryptic versus Honda's shrewd silence.

You my friend have lost it on this subject, at best you've applied a double standard to an almost identical situation for Ducati & Honda factory teammate finishing orders at Sepang. At worst it's hypocritical, as you refuse to acknowledge that team orders were as moot for Dovi as it was for Marquez.

Above you point out Pedrosa's season long struggles in the rain due to difficulty with generating heat, ironically you conveniently omit Lorenzo similar struggles with tires in the rain to last the race distance. Lorenzo's struggled has been as dramatic and distinctive as Pedrosa's, yet as informed as you are P4, you don't include it in your analysis, why? Lorenzo has several times got out to the lead, dry and particularly WET only to crash from the lead AND to drop off the pace dramatically. How dramatic? His pace dropped off so significantly that Zarco once made contact and Lorenzo made headlines taking issue with it. Yet, here you've entirely dismissed it to advance your position that Lorenzo conceded the position to Dovi over team orders. If you're going to go through the trouble of pointing out Pedrosa's struggles in the rain, why conveniently make not mention of Lorenzo's similar struggles? Is that an honest good faith way to debate? You know it's not.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

p4p1 said:

You're right Jum, Pedrosa hasn't struggled in the wet at all this year. Just look at his excellent results in the wet.

Just like all the Hondas have been super consistent this year.

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I'm the one who has repeatedly stated Pedrosa has struggled in the rain thanks to detrimental Michelins. Save your smug retort for when you actually have a point which I've not acknowledged. And while you're at it, here's a portion of sarcasm to your "Honda super consistency" quip, Ducati have been a model of consistency, right Petrux, Lorenzo, Redding, etal?

Here's another point I've also made which you refuse to acknowledge though, which you're doing in hopes of advancing a debate through double standard: Lorenzo's struggles in the rain! Are you going to include that in your analysis of Dovi's win over Lorenzo?

As you say, I've lost it, yet I've argued this point honestly without resorting to half truths and partial analysis.

Pedrosa has struggled in the rain, ok, according to the point you're attempting to make, Pedrosa was unable to realistically challenge Marc for position. Got it. (Team orders, moot).

Vs

Lorenzo has struggled in the rain, fact (similar ....) ok, however contrast your take, you've refused to acknowledge that this similarly makes Lorenzo challenge for position on Dovi in the RAIN unrealistic, YET you insist team orders are the culprit, and moreover cheapen Dovi's championship. (And you've now added, Petrucci pulled over for Dovi, offering as much evidence as Uccio's claim of conspiracy).

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

No Jum, you're wrong again. Pedrosa hasn't shown wet pace all year. Lorenzo has shown pace in the wet this year at times such as Misano when all he had to do was stay on and he was probably going to win.. Lorenzo admitted he knew he had to let Dovi win. Lorenzo didn't make the mistake intentionally we all know that, but what led to the mistake is what we are arguing and how Dovi was able to make up almost a second on Lorenzo in a lap. Again Lorenzo openly stated if it was anyone else he could've and would've challenged for the win. This is an undeniable fact. This is not opinion. I wasn't the only one that thought Petrucci took an unusually wide line going into turn 1 at Motegi to let Dovi through once Marquez got past. Petrucci has history of doing it and as has been revealed now Ducati team ordered were in place in Motegi.

Honda and Marquez have come out and said they haven't issued team orders. Why? Well for one they don't need them. What exactly are Honda going to order Pedrosa or Crutchlow to do? Let the man way up ahead of you through? Hmmm no. Make life difficult for Dovi? There's no point if he's not going to win and neither has shown pace this year to challenge him much either.

p4p1 said:

No Jum, you're wrong again. Pedrosa hasn't shown wet pace all year. Lorenzo has shown pace in the wet this year at times such as Misano when all he had to do was stay on and he was probably going to win.. Lorenzo admitted he knew he had to let Dovi win. Lorenzo didn't make the mistake intentionally we all know that, but what led to the mistake is what we are arguing and how Dovi was able to make up almost a second on Lorenzo in a lap. Again Lorenzo openly stated if it was anyone else he could've and would've challenged for the win. This is an undeniable fact. This is not opinion. I wasn't the only one that thought Petrucci took an unusually wide line going into turn 1 at Motegi to let Dovi through once Marquez got past. Petrucci has history of doing it and as has been revealed now Ducati team ordered were in place in Motegi.

Honda and Marquez have come out and said they haven't issued team orders. Why? Well for one they don't need them. What exactly are Honda going to order Pedrosa or Crutchlow to do? Let the man way up ahead of you through? Hmmm no. Make life difficult for Dovi? There's no point if he's not going to win and neither has shown pace this year to challenge him much either.

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First of all, I said Pedrosa and Lorenzo have "struggled in the rain", their struggles have not been 'identical'. Again, you continue to reframe the debate. But even then, you're wrong because in fact Pedrosa had "pace" in the rain at Malaysia, enough to finish in the top 5. So as a matter of record, you're wrong.

Lorenzo has shown "pace" coupled with a dramatic drop off! As you acknowledge above, that being a CRASH or drop off in pace. That is to say (which I've repeated in this thread and you've conveniently glossed over) in the latter stages of a race the pattern for Lorenzo in a WET race situation is to CRASH or DROP PACE! How is this being lost on you?

Precisely because of this rain race pattern, it's unlikely Lorenzo could realistically challenge Dovi for the win! In fact, this pattern played out AGAIN at Sepang, Lorenzo almost crashed FFS combined with a drop of pace! YET you conveniently ignore this pattern for Lorenzo whilst astonishingly pointing to Pedrosa's rain struggle pattern resulting in your DISCONNECTED conclusion as follows: Lorenzo pulled over on team orders supposedly, contrasted to Pedrosa just struggled in the rain Marc beat him straight up, no team orders.

Lorenzo explicitly stated his massive mistake was a result of a "tire crisis"! And, he added, Dovi was faster than him. You on the other hand insist Dovi made time on Lorenzo after this massive moment because he was following team orders (which left a red streak of knee puck on the tarmac). It's like you've never noticed when a rider almost crashes they INEVITABLY lose time! You've never noticed this P4? Because it's generally physics combined with human reaction to almost crashing that time is lost on a lap to regroup.

Just because you 'think' Petrucci took a wide line doesn't mean you're right to conclude he let Dovi by, hell you're here disputing an almost crash as a legitimate overtaking of team orders. Can I make a similar claim? Ok, Pedrosa let Marc by at Sepang. I can even frame it with your words 'I think Pedrosa took an unusually wide line to let Marc by at the start.' Equally valid as you?

Unbelievable, so Honda have stated they are not doing team orders, that's it, case closed. That's a surprise. Tight lipped or lying? Okey. And...you add, it's a moot point? Have you been reading my posts or just concentrated on reframing the dispute so you can argue the moved goal post? I've been saying the exact thing in regards to team orders being moot. EXCEPT you apply it in double standard, for Marc it's moot according to you, but for Dovi you're convinced team orders have been necessary. Except for one little fact, Dovi has wiped Lorenzo all season. Double standard P4? Pedrosa stays behind Marc in 5th to Marc's 4th, no problem. Team orders--moot. Got it. Contrast, Lorenzo stays behind Dovi, he's never beaten Dovi in the rain--- ....... TEAM ORDERS! Got it.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

p4p1 said:

Honda and Marquez have come out and said they haven't issued team orders. Why? Well for one they don't need them. What exactly are Honda going to order Pedrosa or Crutchlow to do? Let the man way up ahead of you through? Hmmm no. Make life difficult for Dovi? There's no point if he's not going to win and neither has shown pace this year to challenge him much either.

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I didn’t address this last bit; you say Honda didn’t impose team orders because they don't need to, particularly you saying, what is Honda going to do "make life difficult for Dovi? " Well, if you look at Phillip Island, Honda factory rider Dani Pedrosa did in fact "make it difficult for Dovi." Wait wait, so based on your standard, perhaps Honda do have team orders after all.


If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Ducati's team orders to Lorenzo ("map 8") were simple: if you are clearly faster you can win, but if you find yourself in a scrap with Dovi for heaven's sake do not engage in a dogfight with him with the risk of both ending up in the gravel.

Lorenzo was clearly trying to keep his position and win the race, but the moment he nearly lost the front and was overtaken he wasn't supposed to fight back with some desperate last corner attempt (assuming he would have been able to do that). And that's fair enough "team orders" in the circumstances.

I had to go back and watch the race again. The first time round I didn’t pay any attention to the commentary. This time I was surprised to find out they both started going on and on about team orders when there were still 15 laps to go. Harris “oh no, what are Ducati going to do”, “surely they cannot let Lorenzo win”, “Ducati in crises meeting”.

While all this was going on, Dovi was actually reeling off fastest laps! They weren’t to be distracted though, Dovi who? Huston we got a problem. Lorenzo is unbeatable on the winged championship ruining Ducati. Haha get over it this is some Uccio award winning ..... People actually think Dovi, clearly the fastest rider on track (more fastest laps) wasn’t going to even attempt to win the race he needed team orders? Haha that’s very amusing this suggestion now it’s not the wings that ruined racing it’s those cursed team orders!

I don't think anyone is denying that Dovi probably would've won. More that Ducati sent out team orders to make sure he won.

Laptimes only really matter once Dovi and Lorenzo cleared Zarco. What is evident by the laptimes is that Lorenzo and Dovisiozo were in a league of their own. Their fastest race laps were just 6 hundredths of a second different in favour of Dovi, but they are in turn 6 tenths clear of Zarco who was running the soft rear tyre, and a whopping 9 tenths ahead of Marquez, the next rider on the same tyres.

When you break the laps down from lap 9 you get this:

Lorenzo Dovi
9 2'13.375 2'13.403
10 2'13.531 2'13.452
11 2'13.226 2'13.349
12 2'13.273 2'13.222
13 2'13.174 2'13.084
14 2'13.148 2'13.584
15 2'13.432 2'13.111
16 2'14.522 2'13.722
17 2'14.267 2'13.455
18 2'14.439 2'14.390
19 2'14.575 2'14.351
20 2'15.199 2'15.633

It indicates that before the mistake Lorenzo made on Lap 15, they were trading fastest laps which supports Lorenzo's mistake as genuine (and I believe it to be). Team orders don't necessarily mean roll off for your team mate (or buddy in the case of Petrucci Rossi Valencia 2015), but in this case Ducati have openly admitted that the "Suggested Mapping" message WAS a team order, so why is that in contention?

So, the other type of team order. Lorenzo claims he didn't see it, but given that Ducati again confirmed that they had spoken to Lorenzo about helping Dovi (as have the media, countless times, yet they appeared to omit Dani Pedrosa or Valentino Rossi from the same line of repeated questioning), it is utterly inconceivable that once Lorenzo realised Dovi was alongside him coming out of turn 15, that he do anything but give his team mate breathing space. I don't question that Dovi had pace, but I wonder, had team orders not been in play, how much harder Lorenzo could have pushed. Looking at the laptimes above, yes Dovi was faster every lap after passing him except the last. However, some of the lap times were so close they as near make no difference. Lap 18 for example, Lorenzo was just 5 hundredths slower. So it hardly supports claims that Dovi had pace in his pocket and could have run away at the front even if Lorenzo not been told to let him go (even if he didn't see his Mapping 8 message), he was told countless times before the race to do so.

The problem you peeps seam to be having can’t possibly be the existence of team orders can it? And so what if the team issues an ‘order’? Redding said publically he didn’t care about it one iota.

I’ll tell you what is the problem. In 99% of cases the team order is for riders to support the teams no 1 rider. If it were Pedrosa supporting the aliens alien Marquez, I’m pretty sure this wouldn’t be getting the amount of attention the Dovi situation is. In fact, if it were Lorenzo challenging for the title and Dovi obeying team orders I’m pretty sure people would say that’s how it should be. This is a unique case where the clear no2 rider has performed well above all expectations to move into this so called alien territory. But he’s not an alien. No we can’t say that. We can say Lorenzo was once an alien, when he was on a Yamaha. But Dovi is a no 2 rider. Just like Hayden in 06 and Stoner in 07. All three apparently are getting the same treatment, it’s the same pattern. It doesn’t bother me what others believe, I know what I believe and that is this season I saw something special which will stay with me for a long time. Dovi went from a talented guy who thought maybe I can do it, to a rider that made that breakthrough of not maybe, just can. Dovi believes. I find that inspirational. You can’t say it, you can’t just say oh yeah I’m going to be champ. You have to fully believe I will be champ. That’s the breakthrough Dovi admitted in a roundabout kind of way early in the season, he remains very modest about it so it’s hard to recognise but I get it fully.

I’m laughing at Pov posting he actually wishes the title was already decided so he can watch Marquez ride unhindered by the burden of a championship in the balance. Pov seams to regard Dovi as nothing but a pesky mosquito which he would like nothing more than to swat out of the way of the ‘aliens’. Pretty comical when a person says he actually wishes the title was wrapped up early. We all just want to watch Marquez ride with both arms again. I kind of like championships going to the wire myself.

I’ve enjoyed this years championship more than most. I like surprises. I enjoy a change from the norm. Dovi gave us a break from the predictable nature of the sport, and some appear to resent it. JP for example stated he just wants to see MM win 10 titles. I’m not interested in another Doohan/Rossi era. I enjoyed the 80’s era far more where riders were coming from everywhere to challenge the established stars and no one rider was able to truly dominate because the level of competition was too high.

#22 said:

Laptimes only really matter once Dovi and Lorenzo cleared Zarco. What is evident by the laptimes is that Lorenzo and Dovisiozo were in a league of their own. Their fastest race laps were just 6 hundredths of a second different in favour of Dovi, but they are in turn 6 tenths clear of Zarco who was running the soft rear tyre, and a whopping 9 tenths ahead of Marquez, the next rider on the same tyres.

When you break the laps down from lap 9 you get this:

Lorenzo Dovi
9 2'13.375 2'13.403
10 2'13.531 2'13.452
11 2'13.226 2'13.349
12 2'13.273 2'13.222
13 2'13.174 2'13.084
14 2'13.148 2'13.584
15 2'13.432 2'13.111
16 2'14.522 2'13.722
17 2'14.267 2'13.455
18 2'14.439 2'14.390
19 2'14.575 2'14.351
20 2'15.199 2'15.633

It indicates that before the mistake Lorenzo made on Lap 15, they were trading fastest laps which supports Lorenzo's mistake as genuine (and I believe it to be). Team orders don't necessarily mean roll off for your team mate (or buddy in the case of Petrucci Rossi Valencia 2015), but in this case Ducati have openly admitted that the "Suggested Mapping" message WAS a team order, so why is that in contention?

So, the other type of team order. Lorenzo claims he didn't see it, but given that Ducati again confirmed that they had spoken to Lorenzo about helping Dovi (as have the media, countless times, yet they appeared to omit Dani Pedrosa or Valentino Rossi from the same line of repeated questioning), it is utterly inconceivable that once Lorenzo realised Dovi was alongside him coming out of turn 15, that he do anything but give his team mate breathing space. I don't question that Dovi had pace, but I wonder, had team orders not been in play, how much harder Lorenzo could have pushed. Looking at the laptimes above, yes Dovi was faster every lap after passing him except the last. However, some of the lap times were so close they as near make no difference. Lap 18 for example, Lorenzo was just 5 hundredths slower. So it hardly supports claims that Dovi had pace in his pocket and could have run away at the front even if Lorenzo not been told to let him go (even if he didn't see his Mapping 8 message), he was told countless times before the race to do so.

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But what does it all mean Uccio? Can you make it into a graph for me?

Apologies 22 I appreciate this because I was too lazy to look it up. Yes I already said that I thought Lorenzo was going all out to win the race. He was running a potentially tire destroying pace, especially in the Michelin era. Dovi was behind him from the start. Hell Dovi was actually dicing with non championship can’t ride in the rain Pedrosa for a bit, Pedrosa looking more aggressive than usual but no Honda team orders.

Dovi is up to 2 seconds behind Lorenzo. He quickly reels off fastest laps and makes up the distance. Lorenzo was never going to run away with this one team orders are being overplayed in Uccio PI 15 fashion that’s all I’m saying. Post Uccio peeps seam to want to try and read too much into how races play out. I don’t mind the speculation I’m simply not buying into it.

p4p1 said:

I don't think anyone is denying that Dovi probably would've won. More that Ducati sent out team orders to make sure he won.

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Nobody?


Funny thing about a forum, it records what people write.

povol said:

No doubt Lorenzo played to team orders which in this situation he should. GIVING UP HIS FIRST WIN on Ducati or any win for that matter has to be gut wrenching...

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p4p1 said:

Ducati have issued team orders to insure that the championship goes to Valencia. Regardless of what map 8 meant there was obvious orders about GIVING POSITION TO DOVI.... After all if they weren't willing to go to extreme lengths to make sure these things happen then what is the point of LORENZO NOT GOING FOR THE WIN?

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-----

p4p1 said:

I don't think anyone is denying that Dovi probably would've won.

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No my friend, actually you are suggesting the opposite, 'Lorenzo' 'probably would've won' unless team orders, "Lorenzo not going for the win", and Povol going so far as to saying "Lorenzo gave up his first win".

Unless you go back and edit your posts and retract, it's usually not a good idea to later claim the opposite because we can easily revisit the post buddy. I don’t mind us changing our minds though and I've certainly changed my once I've realized my position is untenable. No shame in that. Povol my good friend has chosen to double triple down though, even to the point of suggesting qualifying and race positions are uncorrelated, which I debunked.

Oh, and again, we're not disputing the existence of team order, in case you want to say that for a third time. So to recap, you are decided denying Dovi "probably" would have won by saying Lorenzo gave up the position.

May I quote Povol? "Next".


If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Gotta say I agree, Dovi's sudden increase in form has made this season fun to watch. Vinales was done the moment they switched chassis, if not for Dovi the championship would've been done and dusted and we would've missed out on some great races. I hope Dovi and Lorenzo can keep developing the Ducati, I hope Honda can get Pedrosa consistently competitive so we can see more guys up the front pushing for wins though I suspect in doing so it could make Marquez even quicker. I hope Yamaha fix the bike for next year but in the likely event they don't fix all their issues in the off season it'll be good that Ducati is now competitive because as much as I'm a Marquez fan and hope he gets to #10 one day I want it to be fun to watch and the battles between him and Dovi have been amazing.

Your welcome Birdy. For the record, I agree with you that Dovi most likely won the race on pure pace, and his transformation this year has been amazing. However, my argument is simply that Lorenzo did not battle him as hard as he would have done anyone else because he is in the hunt for the championship. It has nothing to do with Dovi being considered a number 2 rider or his previous form. He has, without question, earned the results he has had this year on merit.

As for looking into the races too much, posting 30,000 word essays each post could be contrived as looking into things much too, no?