Could be the case. I haven't denied that. It could also have been because Lorenzo was told to slow down. We don't know for sure. Much like we know that at times Lorenzo conserving tyres has been a problem. We also know that Ducati have been using team orders.
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Could be the case. I haven't denied that. It could also have been because Lorenzo was told to slow down. We don't know for sure. Much like we know that at times Lorenzo conserving tyres has been a problem. We also know that Ducati have been using team orders.
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You need some new material. Your debating strategy of dazzling with a thousand words of the same ole ........ is getting kind of old.You seriously think that Ducati had team orders for Redding and not Lorenzo. Like I said , no big deal it's the right thing to do and there was never any doubt once Dovi took second that Lorenzo was going to finish second.
Orders were discussed before the race.....order was given during race....that is all we need to know....
Did the order change how Lorenzo rode from the point the orders were given to the point he had his 'mistake' that let Dovi by? Only JLo and Ducati really know....
I think the order put JLo off his game and led to his 'mistake', did his inability to conserve the front tyre contribute?....probably...
Those that deny the order was given by Ducati are just arguing for the sake of arguing....god can you imagine if those types of people had twitter accounts and became president....ugh....
Any way, I have a lot of respect for JLo for obeying, consciously or unconsciously, and I do hope the JLo Ducati relationship suffer it, in time....
Anyone care to speculate who will be the number 1 rider at Ducati in 2018?
No one is denying team orders were discussed genius, its obvious the were. The discussion is whether team orders were the reason Dovi won, or whether Dovi won on merit. As I have said, I prefer to say he won on merit and offer congratulations for doing so.
Team orders have been around longer than you might think, back in 1968 Yamaha wanted Phil Read to win the 125cc title and Bill Ivy to win the 250cc title, after winning the 125cc title Read proceeded to ignore team orders and beat Ivy and won the 250cc title as well.
Yamaha sacked Read.
Yamaha sacked Read.
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You do realize you just argued against yourself there right?
Presupposing Dovi's MO of getting stronger (he hasn't always anyway) as proof that Lorenzo couldn't have won (because you say his MO is to drop off) is essentially arguing in a roundabout way that Dovi's win was guaranteed with 6 laps to go.
Without team orders in play, we'll never really know whether Lorenzo could have recovered and made an effective challenge to Dovizioso. While history would say no, he also ran one of the best races of the year on the Ducati up to that point...in the wet no less. So engaging in a logical fallacy of presumption kind of torpedoes your entire argument in short order.
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Dovi has never been strong at Valencia agreed. Lorenzo on the other hand is a demon there. He was 3rd quickets and looked comfortable on the winglet shod GP16 in the post season test. So given he has confidence in the front again with the winglet shod GP17, I'm certainly hoping he wins if Dovi isn't 1st or 2nd.
You need some new material. Your debating strategy of dazzling with a thousand words of the same ole ........ is getting kind of old.
I personally find it odd that he was toe-to-toe in laptimes with Dovi then after the map change message his pace dropped off. I believe the front end washout at T15 was genuine. Whether it would have happened anyway, or was from pushing too hard due to the new map (which Lorenzo claims he didn't see and change, but he could be being diplomatic), who knows?
Another thing of note is Lorenzo rides the Ducati a lot more 'loose' than he did the Yamaha, it was plain to see on Sunday compared to Dovi. It appeared to me, that he started steering with the rear a lot more in the laps after the "Suggested Mapping" message, so was that a coincidence or if he did indeed change to Map 8 did it affect engine braking? Everyone is assuming a map change softens the power delivery to conserve the rear tyre but engine braking control also uses fuel, so if the map change was to 'cut power', it's conceivable that the braking characteristics of the bike are affected too. In that scenario Lorenzo starts loading the front tyre more to slow him down and he cooks it.
Just my 2 cents.
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Was going to say that Hodgson on bt sports was stood by a Ducati. He claimed to have scrolled through the mapping and said it only went to 7. I think it may have been Petrucci’s bike.
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I don't believe that for a second though. How on earth would a TV reporter get access to that sort of information? It's not like they leave these things out on the street for any tom .... or harry to plug a laptop into. I'm not denying his claim, but I call ........ on how he says he found it out.
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That's clever pal... you just employed a logical fallacy, a flaw in your reasoning, in an attempt to conflate these two separate points: likelihood vs "guarantee". These two are NOT the same. Let's use these in a statement to highlight just how different they are buddy:
Likelihood: she tells you, she's 'feeling' pregnant but hasn't been tested, you MIGHT be the father. (Hey, I feel pretty good about my 'chances').
Vs
Guarantee: she tells you, I just had a DNA blood test, you're 'GUARANTEED' to be the father!
Same .... JP? It would be a fallacy to equate these two, which you've attempted.
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Pal, i dont know why you've taken these untenable positions lately, honestly I'd prefer not to debate you because we've agreed in the past about various takes, but like your "aero advantage" at Motegi contention, I'm afraid you'll need to resort to misquotes (I never said Dovi's an "alien"), conflation (see above), and fallacies (see above) to advance your position that Dovi is not a 'contender.'
Let's examine this further.
Statement in dispute: Lorenzo gave up a "guaranteed win" (full stop regardless of team orders, or the fairy godmother whispering in his ear to slow down). This is the position you've now endorsed.
My statement: Saying wins in rain conditions are "guaranteed" is absurd, considering the 'pattern' of Dovi's habit (MO) in managing and getting stronger, therefore a guarantee is UNLIKELY (the reverse is possible but improbable, the opposite of guarantees). This is the position you've argued against, worse, you've misidentified it as a "logical fallacy."
Here is your mistake:
Dovi's 'pattern' (documented) of managing races produces 'likelihood' this does NOT equate to "guarantees." You might want to brush up on what a logical fallacy is pal.
As much i respect and often agree with my friend Pov's takes (and P.) he really left me scratching my head on this one, and to read others agree with it is head shaking, i would never say something like wins are guaranteed in the dry much less in RAIN; yet, you have taken up this position rather than call it out. There are plenty of examples of riders crashing out from the lead in sketchy condition (Zarco, Marc, Pedrosa, LORENZO, list goes on) in fact that's why when we watch 'rain' races its with tenuous emotion, especially when we see the leader with a gap we are thinking "don't crash don't crash".
I read this post as an extension of your continued skepticism for Dovi pal. You've consistently taken the position Dovi is not the difference in being a contender, pointing to supposed Ducati advantages and in this case team orders. I suspect you need to take this position because you insisted Dovi was not a "contender". Rather than retract you've doubled down, even going so far as to 'suggest' Dovi's win over Marc was do to some aero advantages on the Ducati at Motegi--Honda's personal track. Seems to me it stems from your skepticism of Dovi as I said, but frankly I take no pleasure in debating this with you because I've agreed with many of your opinions, this one is definitely odd pal.
Let me repeat again to dispell your erroneous use of fallacy: i did NOT say Dovi's win was "guaranteed" by pointing out his racecraft MO, to support my position I simply reminded you why Dovi's race was 'likely' stronger given his strength in the closing stages. That's not logical fallacy, that's just logic. You however have attempted circular reasoning to paint it as though I've said Dovi's win was a guarantee!
Let's look at it another way, as I'm not keen to let you off the hook so easily since you've chosen to debate this position. Why aren't you citing team orders to explain why 'pole man' Pedrosa 'let Marc past" and not challenge for the 4th position? Is it because you believe that Honda are beyond team orders? Or because Marc is so superior to Pedrosa (a pattern) that he wouldn't need the assistance even if team orders were discussed/imposed? Why is the notion of team orders between Marc and Pedrosa so absolutely dismissed? Because in fact Pedrosa has as a matter of record let a contending teammate 'take' the position, Valencia 06, not that Nicky would have needed it, as he said, he was prepared to do everything to win the race. So there IS precedent (or as some might call it "proof") of Honda teammate Dani Pedrosa willing to help out his employer's championship possibilities (fact). Why is it such a foregone conclusion then that Marc beat Pedrosa straight up? Given...wait for it, this PATTERN (MO) of Marc besting Pedrosa, YET, the same reasoning does NOT apply to Dovi because....?
HONDA TEAM ORDERS!
Ok,let me declare now: Marc's 4th position was a gift of Honda team orders, to extend the championship to Valencia; Pedrosa chose to slow down from his pole position and let Marc past. Pole man Pedrosa was "guaranteed" his FIRST wet win of the season against his teammate Marc who's MO was to best Dani all year, notwithstanding, this was the exception...the "proof": Pedrosa sat on pole position. The precedent: Pedrosa has helped a teammate get by before, which in fact Pedrosa did at Malaysia.
No, that doesn't sound ridiculous.
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He was stood there with his hand on the left handlebar as if he’d just thumbed through the maps. The mechanics even came and asked politely if it was ok to wheel the bike backwards into the garage as he and another reporter talked, a while later.
Actually I’ve just rewound it and it was Dovi’s spare bike that Hodgson and an Irish bloke (Craig something I think) who fronts things, were with. Jezza McWilliams even comes and takes a selfie as they’re filming!
Hodgson can often get some Ducati leeway due to his past associations with them, he claims.
Agreed. No-one other than JL and his telemetry guy really knows.
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No one other than Pedrosa and his telemetry guy knows if he let Marc have 4th.
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Mike, isn't it' 'possible' Honda told pole man Pedrosa, the fastest man in qualifying, to let Marc have the position and not race Marc aggressively for position? Is it 'possible' they asked their satellite Honda riders, two of which are "rain specialist" not to race Marc aggressively in the event the HRC contender struggled? It IS in fact "possible". Does anyone here doubt Honda may have discussed various scenarios, they'd be stupid if they didn’t? Moreover, it would be uncharacteristic if Honda didn’t discuss it especially given the influence and shrewd way Marc's garage wields power and plans in great detail races in sketchy conditions!
So why do you think this notion described above to 'help' Marc has been thoroughly and absolutely dismissed? Why weren't Pedrosa and Rossi relentlessly grilled about helping their teammates like Lorenzo, Petrucci, and other Ducati riders? Is there an element of disrespect, double standard, and thematic inconsistency? It hasn't been lost on me this narrative that poor Marc has soldiered valiantly on the awful RCV, poor alien club member inductee Vinalez hampered by Yamaha's dropped ball development, whilst simultaneously Dovi has been gifted the contender's role as a result of a perfect storm and the superior "advantages" of a general accepted fickle idiosyncratic capricious machine that nobody other than Dovi has won on this year. This narrative isn't just a theme advanced by the Hack Oxleys and Neil Hodges of the world, but it's right here on our forum! Ironically, Dovi is the type cast this forum would support and back.
This forum is great about pointing out skewed inconsistencies on how riders are treated, from reactions regarding our sport, from pointing out commentators and journalist lopsided vacillations over Rossi’s comeback as "Biblical proportion" whilst Jack Miller's is brushed aside with barely a mention, to the epic debacle of 2015, the coup to reintroduce previously withdrawn tires and the imbalances of influence by race direction which admitted to considering the championship rather than its paramount task of safety when refusing to black flag, to the way journalists cowardly tip-toe around the important riders and lay into the less important ones, grilling and asking about their vulnerabilities. PS points out inconsistencies, no wonder it's not a favorite space for journalists. Yet, the great exception this year has been this persistent theme that disparages great guy Dovi; who has stepped up his game, won 6 races on a historically career killing machine, whilst paired up with great riders that haven’t matched Dovi's extraordinary achievement. The narrative goes: it's not Dovi, it's Ducati combined with Honda/Yamaha's failures.
Petrucci was asked repeatedly if he'd help Dovi, replying it would look "bad for the sport" if he pulled aside, no follow up question in sight to point out he almost committed suicide to get out of Rossi's way at Valencia 15. These questions are asked repeatedly in front of Andrea Dovizioso, I cringe every time because I find it disrespectful. Yet here we are on this forum engaging in a similar imbalanced inconsistency when it comes to Dovi vs Marquez. Marquez this year has been given the benefit of doubt to such an extent its bopper territory whilst Dovi is being treated like, I dare say Nicky Hayden, someone that just doesn't belong in this position because __________ (insert ........ here). Oh I'm sure I'll get people to respond and say, I respect Dovi, I like Dovi, he's such a great guy, like a fat chick at the prom, Dovi's got a great personality, and say I think Dovi's had a fantastic season bla bla bla, but but but....he's in this position because the Ducati is a rocket ship, the aero package is like the Concord (or like a dragster's parachute,depending on convenience), the tires suit Ducati, the Honda is atrocious, the Yamaha has been developed by monkeys, the Yamaha (despite getting the #70 tires for one of the riders) just haven't provided the "grip" because Ducati have a "better" and more experience crew with the CPU. It's like all the top JPL-NASA Space-X data electronics engineer's were hired by Ducati to give them a supposed advantage whilst Honda's army of engineers have patched on Nintendo 64 to the RCV. It's this theme of disrespecting Dovi in favor of Ducati, this machine that has been supposedly spawned by alien technology never before seen by mankind, and they handed it to Dovi, quite possibly riding it via remote control. Dovi won because Lorenzo pulled over from a guaranteed win whilst leaving half his knee slider on the soaking tarmac as a protest.
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I’m all for discussion and speculation, it’s the point of the forum I suppose. Still let’s ‘speculate’ Marquez really did ride to spoil Rossis race at PI 15. He did it again at Sepang and one last time at Valencia. So let’s speculate Rossi is in fact the rightful 2015 champ. He and millions around the world believe in this like it’s gospel. I don’t.
So Lorenzo rode to team orders eh? He coulda woulda shoulda won the race, but didn’t. Ok I’ll play, let’s speculate. I’m the team boss at Ducati. I issue my team orders. Lorenzo, you are ordered to help Dovi any way you can. Do not impede Dovi, don’t mess with him, don’t go anywhere near him. Your mission, play with Marquez. Impede him, disrupt him, intimidate him, hell try and get him to crash, but do it within the rules.
Lorenzo responds “I get it like Rossi in Sepang 15!”.
Me: no within the real rules not the Rossi rules you are Lorenzo you will be disqualified.
Anyone witness this? Yes/no? Team orders? I remember seeing Edwards ride shot gun for Rossi plenty of times. Edwards coulda woulda shoulda won those races. But he didn’t, and the fact is Lorenzo didn’t even ride shotgun for Dovi. The fact is he made things even more difficult for Dovi. He forced Dovi to push harder than he really needed to. Revisit, Lorenzo made the better start, got to the front first. Dovi has to dispense with Marquez the alien, then Zarco who has nothing to lose and is going all out. Dovi does this. He then closes the gap to Lorenzo, in the process pulling away from Zarco. The pace is too hot for Marquez he decides to play it safe, there’s a championship on the line.
Neither Zarco and more critically Lorenzo have any such inclination. Lorenzo especially has nothing to loose and goes all out. Fastest laps and pulling away from Zarco easily. I assume he was taking plenty of risk in doing so, Zarco is no slouch a balls out rider wanting a win. Who’s that guy behind Lorenzo? Oh right it’s the non alien Dovi. Let’s refer to him from now on as not the contender pretender but simply ‘the anomoly’.
As Lorenzo reals out fastest laps and pulls away the anomoly goes with him while Zarco can’t. I’m assuming the anomoly is risking plenty by doing this, hell how far are they ahead of alien Marquez? Ok I’m team boss. Send the message to Lorenzo, that’s Dovi numb nuts you could both crash any second so slow the .... down, pull aside and let Dovi go. It doesn’t happen that way folks.
I was sitting there watching thinking .... they are miles in front and Lorenzo is going to throw it down the road any second. I was praying Dovi wouldn’t crash trying to stay with him, which btw he had to do. Sure enough Lorenzo nearly does crash, Dovi makes the move, to me it’s too soon but anyway he does it and pulls away. I watch Dovi braking extremely late at the end of the first straight and run a little wide a couple of times and again I think he’s really going for it please don’t crash. He doesn’t and the anomoly miraculously wins yet again. Thanks to team orders? That would have to be the dumbest riskiest team order strategy I’ve ever seen, they both could have either crashed or destroyed the tires but yeah I suppose it’s possibly the dreaded masterminded map 8 conspiracy theory strategy to steal Marquez’s championship.
You know what, Marquez was lucky. He was bloody lucky there weren’t another 5 bikes in front of him like PI because he was miles behind. Dovi the anomoly on the weapon Ducati = unlucky, Marquez the alien with one arm: lucky
So Lorenzo rode to team orders eh? He coulda woulda shoulda won the race, but didn’t. Ok I’ll play, let’s speculate. I’m the team boss at Ducati. I issue my team orders. Lorenzo, you are ordered to help Dovi any way you can. Do not impede Dovi, don’t mess with him, don’t go anywhere near him. Your mission, play with Marquez. Impede him, disrupt him, intimidate him, hell try and get him to crash, but do it within the rules.
Lorenzo responds “I get it like Rossi in Sepang 15!”.
Me: no within the real rules not the Rossi rules you are Lorenzo you will be disqualified.
Anyone witness this? Yes/no? Team orders? I remember seeing Edwards ride shot gun for Rossi plenty of times. Edwards coulda woulda shoulda won those races. But he didn’t, and the fact is Lorenzo didn’t even ride shotgun for Dovi. The fact is he made things even more difficult for Dovi. He forced Dovi to push harder than he really needed to. Revisit, Lorenzo made the better start, got to the front first. Dovi has to dispense with Marquez the alien, then Zarco who has nothing to lose and is going all out. Dovi does this. He then closes the gap to Lorenzo, in the process pulling away from Zarco. The pace is too hot for Marquez he decides to play it safe, there’s a championship on the line.
Neither Zarco and more critically Lorenzo have any such inclination. Lorenzo especially has nothing to loose and goes all out. Fastest laps and pulling away from Zarco easily. I assume he was taking plenty of risk in doing so, Zarco is no slouch a balls out rider wanting a win. Who’s that guy behind Lorenzo? Oh right it’s the non alien Dovi. Let’s refer to him from now on as not the contender pretender but simply ‘the anomoly’.
As Lorenzo reals out fastest laps and pulls away the anomoly goes with him while Zarco can’t. I’m assuming the anomoly is risking plenty by doing this, hell how far are they ahead of alien Marquez? Ok I’m team boss. Send the message to Lorenzo, that’s Dovi numb nuts you could both crash any second so slow the .... down, pull aside and let Dovi go. It doesn’t happen that way folks.
I was sitting there watching thinking .... they are miles in front and Lorenzo is going to throw it down the road any second. I was praying Dovi wouldn’t crash trying to stay with him, which btw he had to do. Sure enough Lorenzo nearly does crash, Dovi makes the move, to me it’s too soon but anyway he does it and pulls away. I watch Dovi braking extremely late at the end of the first straight and run a little wide a couple of times and again I think he’s really going for it please don’t crash. He doesn’t and the anomoly miraculously wins yet again. Thanks to team orders? That would have to be the dumbest riskiest team order strategy I’ve ever seen, they both could have either crashed or destroyed the tires but yeah I suppose it’s possibly the dreaded masterminded map 8 conspiracy theory strategy to steal Marquez’s championship.
You know what, Marquez was lucky. He was bloody lucky there weren’t another 5 bikes in front of him like PI because he was miles behind. Dovi the anomoly on the weapon Ducati = unlucky, Marquez the alien with one arm: lucky
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That is not my argument at all. As I have already said, if Dovi wins especially on a Ducati it will be particularly well deserved and somewhat Hayden-like, an underestimated rider not the first choice for his team at the start of the year (at least unlike Nicky he appears to have become his team’s preferred rider during the course of the season) riding an exceptional/great season against opposition acclaimed as all time great. He has won 5 other races ffs, obviously trounced Lorenzo on a whole season basis, beat MM in last lap duels etc, etc. if he beats MM for the title it will be because he was better than him this year, no excuses can rationally be made for the lead HRC rider being beaten by someone on a Ducati.
Even watching the race which I did without full attention trying to complete another task in daylight I thought there might be no need for team orders because of the reasons you have advanced, Dovi all year having been stronger/better at preserving his tyres at the end of races.
What I do think is virtually certain is that if Lorenzo had won it would have been against team orders, and I have little doubt Pedrosa would have had team orders as well. Whether Lorenzo actually did ride in a fashion which helped Dovi at all, other than by beating MM, is another question and I take Birdman’s subsequent points on the matter, although if you need your riders to finish 1-2 with one of them conceding it is my opinion this is most easily arranged from in front, and if Dovi couldn’t beat the rest of the field himself it was all moot/irrelevant anyway.
Btw, if you go back to watch Estoril 2006 as you have likely done, where there should imo have been team orders against Pedrosa making the move on Nicky that he made, it is very noticeable Edwards was riding to help Rossi as was his wont to which Birdman has alluded.
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