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Now you're emotional and typing 3rd grade level insults. You don't feel embarrassed that as old as you are you don't have the wisdom or imagination to come up with better insults?

If Marquez chokes and tosses his RCV down the road at Valencia... you should avoid this forum during the off-season. It'll be hell for you... I'll make sure of it. ;)

Man you are one ...... up .... head.
 
I think Marc will find a hole between front runners and the second pack and watch what unfolds . If Dovi is riding around 7-8 seconds off the lead at half point as he normally does at Valencia and has no chance of winning, Marc just might have a go at winning the race. The normal cast that usually vies for the win at Valencia is either on the wrong machine (Lorenzo), or is slower than normal , (Pedrosa) so hanging near the front may not be that difficult.
 
I find myself thinking like that too, but I don't think it' the right way to look at it. That engine failure was part of the Honda effort this year and if they lose the championship because of it it's just as valid as if a rider screws up a race.

Vinales could say the championship should be his, but for circumstance, using that logic.

Absolutely, Dovi has ridden a great season, Ducati/Gigi have produced a competitive bike, which is always against the odds when the opposition is Honda and Yamaha, if Dovi ends up with the most points because of MM throwing the bike down the road or another mechanical DNF from mighty Honda that is not his or Ducati's problem (quite the contrary in the latter eventuality as you say) and he will absolutely be a deserved title winner with some parallels with Nicky's title in 2006. Speaking of that season, I guess a third scenario is MM getting a dud Michelin, as some suggest may have happened to Rossi back then.

My default position has always been to support Ducati, and I like and respect Dovi whilst being a Lorenzo fan as far as current competitors are concerned. The only reasons I am mildly going for MM is because of the attitude of the Valeban towards him and my admiration for how he stood up after the events of 2015, as well as Carmelo's preference probably being for Dovi to win despite his obvious distaste for a previous Ducati title winner when Rossi was the title favorite not that this is Dovi's fault if it is the case.
 
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For those of you mistaken about Ducati's team orders, and Lorenzo supposedly giving up a win, etc.; ya'll must have suspended in your minds the clear pattern that you've been seeing all year for Dovi and Lorenzo. No Ducati team orders were necessary because Dovi won the race without the need for any assistance! Dovi benefited from Lorenzo backing off as much as Marquez "backed off" the duel at Japan and Austria, in other words, it didn't happen, Lorenzo had no choice in the matter because he got beat straight up by Dovi.

Where are you guys getting this "fact" that Ducati executed team orders? They didn’t need to because the same pattern played out that Dovi has done for most of his wins, patiently sit back, conserve fuel and tires, then pounce in the last few laps and take the win. Lorenzo almost went down for .... sake, that was interpreted as team orders? Absurd! Lorenzo didn’t observe "team orders" any more than 'pole man' Pedrosa did at Sepang! Pedrosa pulled over as much as Lorenzo did, that is, they did NOT because each of them got beat straight up by their teammates. Why aren't ya'll talking about Honda team orders? Oh yeah, because that's absurd, yet Pedrosa was on pole. Why didn't Marquez just beat Zarco and press the issue? Isn't alien Marquez better than Zarco? Perhaps he conceded the position because of the risk reward was rather obvious, similarly, Lorenzo on the limit could have easily ended in an Iannone moment if he pushed.

Mapping Ate. That's what ya'll did, ate it hook line sinker, except it wasn't some mystery message for us to go all Illuminati. Who gets lighting starts and then burns up tires and fuel and drops pace? We don't even need to look it up: Lorenzo. Who sits back, thinks the situation through, let's people run up front and patiently conserves tires and fuel? You don't need to look it up: Dovi. We're supposed to believe this was some exceptional anomaly to the pattern that has played out all season? Have ya'll been talking to Uccio?

Ducati had admitted they spoke about various scenarios, we knew this already, but the need never actually materialized because Dovi managed the race win against Lorenzo in the same way he managed it against Marquez, except the last lap duel was done and dusted on an almost crash by Lorenzo. That doesn't mean Ducati would have instituted team orders if necessary, but the scenario never made it to this stage because Dovi eliminated the need for this possibility by wining exactly like most of his other 5 wins this year. Ya'll act like Lorenzo could have beat Dovi as a foregone conclusion, reminds me of those accusing Marc of refusing to pass Lorenzo at Valencia 15. They got rid of Iannone for this exact reason, and hired Lorenzo because he understands much better risk reward, Lorenzo was almost on his ... at Malaysia when Dovi passed. He didn’t fake an almost crash to let Dovi by, his pace didn't suffer because of some mysterious message that was rather not so mysterious, the message being: yo, you're burning up your fuel, tires, it's late in race, conditions are changing, this is our suggested map...you know, like we have always done with pit boards 'mode change" since electronic mapping adjustments were introduced back in the day. What the hell is so odd about something so normal, yeah real odd mystery not. Which btw, often coincides with burning up tires, something Lorenzo has been on record saying was an issue. This wasn't Petrux going into orbit to let Rossi through at Valencia 15, Lorenzo's moment was real, he was on the limit, the front was becoming an issue as is normal at late stage in races. He said as much, the front was on the limit, well no .... for a guy that is renoun for being front tire dependent.

Team orders my .... Dovi won straight up.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
No doubt Lorenzo played to team orders which in this situation he should. Giving up his first win on Ducati or any win for that matter has to be gut wrenching , but I gained a lot of respect for him today for not being the Prima Donna he is usually portrayed to be. Solid race by Zarco, can he keep the 16 M1 for next year. Marc rode smart and it will take a disaster on his part and a win by Dovi for anything to change at the top. A disaster for Marquez is way more likely than Dovi winning at Valencia, so he (Dovi)has to start doing a rain dance today and continue it for the next 14 days. Was really hoping Marquez would wrap it up today so we could see cracking finale, but we will have another weekend like this where the number one goal will be to not get hurt in practice and riding to secure a spot on the track by himself.

What an odd take coming from you Pov.

No doubt? You're that sure? Except for the fact the pattern of both Dovi's and Lorenzo's race distance management was a carbon copy of the entire season, Dovi 6 Lorenzo 0. For a person that analyzes race distance management as you do, this opinion is rather unbelievable.

Wins are as 'guaranteed' with '6 laps to go' (in the rain no less) as a "hot slot machine." You should know better than to say with such certainty that Lorenzo gave up a win. Lorenzo no more gave up a win than Marquez did at Sepang. Why didn’t alien rain rider Marc just win the race and get the entire exercise over with? Wasn't Marc, truly an elite rider, at least good enough to come 2nd? Why risk giving the championship one more chance at Valencia if he could so easily snuff it out now? Nothing is guaranteed in racing Pov, less in sketchy conditions, Lorenzo's win that "he gave up" is a very odd take by you buddy.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
For those of you mistaken about Ducati's team orders, and Lorenzo supposedly giving up a win, etc.; ya'll must have suspended in your minds the clear pattern that you've been seeing all year for Dovi and Lorenzo. No Ducati team orders were necessary because Dovi won the race without the need for any assistance! Dovi benefited from Lorenzo backing off as much as Marquez "backed off" the duel at Japan and Austria, in other words, it didn't happen, Lorenzo had no choice in the matter because he got beat straight up by Dovi.

Where are you guys getting this "fact" that Ducati executed team orders? They didn’t need to because the same pattern played out that Dovi has done for most of his wins, patiently sit back, conserve fuel and tires, then pounce in the last few laps and take the win. Lorenzo almost went down for .... sake, that was interpreted as team orders? Absurd! Lorenzo didn’t observe "team orders" any more than 'pole man' Pedrosa did at Sepang! Pedrosa pulled over as much as Lorenzo did, that is, they did NOT because each of them got beat straight up by their teammates. Why aren't ya'll talking about Honda team orders? Oh yeah, because that's absurd, yet Pedrosa was on pole. Why didn't Marquez just beat Zarco and press the issue? Isn't alien Marquez better than Zarco? Perhaps he conceded the position because of the risk reward was rather obvious, similarly, Lorenzo on the limit could have easily ended in an Iannone moment if he pushed.

Mapping Ate. That's what ya'll did, ate it hook line sinker, except it wasn't some mystery message for us to go all Illuminati. Who gets lighting starts and then burns up tires and fuel and drops pace? We don't even need to look it up: Lorenzo. Who sits back, thinks the situation through, let's people run up front and patiently conserves tires and fuel? You don't need to look it up: Dovi. We're supposed to believe this was some exceptional anomaly to the pattern that has played out all season? Have ya'll been talking to Uccio?

Ducati had admitted they spoke about various scenarios, we knew this already, but the need never actually materialized because Dovi managed the race win against Lorenzo in the same way he managed it against Marquez, except the last lap duel was done and dusted on an almost crash by Lorenzo. That doesn't mean Ducati would have instituted team orders if necessary, but the scenario never made it to this stage because Dovi eliminated the need for this possibility by wining exactly like most of his other 5 wins this year. Ya'll act like Lorenzo could have beat Dovi as a foregone conclusion, reminds me of those accusing Marc of refusing to pass Lorenzo at Valencia 15. They got rid of Iannone for this exact reason, and hired Lorenzo because he understands much better risk reward, Lorenzo was almost on his ... at Malaysia when Dovi passed. He didn’t fake an almost crash to let Dovi by, his pace didn't suffer because of some mysterious message that was rather not so mysterious, the message being: yo, you're burning up your fuel, tires, it's late in race, conditions are changing, this is our suggested map...you know, like we have always done with pit boards 'mode change" since electronic mapping adjustments were introduced back in the day. What the hell is so odd about something so normal, yeah real odd mystery not. Which btw, often coincides with burning up tires, something Lorenzo has been on record saying was an issue. This wasn't Petrux going into orbit to let Rossi through at Valencia 15, Lorenzo's moment was real, he was on the limit, the front was becoming an issue as is normal at late stage in races. He said as much, the front was on the limit, well no .... for a guy that is renoun for being front tire dependent.

Team orders my .... Dovi won straight up.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

 
Ducati have issued team orders to insure that the championship goes to Valencia. Regardless of what map 8 meant there was obvious orders about giving position to Dovi(I still believe and so do others that Petrucci ran wide to let Dovi straight through in Motegi, a tenth of a second or more that he could've lost waiting to get by Petrucci would've probably meant he couldn't pull off that incredible pass) and not engaging him. I think the question is what are we going to see in Valencia? What are Ducati and by extension Italians(think Capirossi in 125cc) willing to do to see that not only does Marquez DNF or not finish in the top 11 at a track he has never been off the podium at but try to make sure that no one beats Dovi across the line? After all if they weren't willing to go to extreme lengths to make sure these things happen then what is the point of Lorenzo not going for the win? Will Rossi or another Italian purposefully run Marquez off the track? How will they make sure that Vinales, Pedrosa or someone else entirely doesn't win the race? Call me crazy but I'm really worried as a fan about what we could see in Valencia. I admit we could end up seeing a great scrap but I just hope it's all fair.

Disagree P.

Were team orders executed? That's the operative question. Ducati discussed various scenarios, mainly not to race eachother aggressively ala Iannone, but pulling over is quite another thing; you state it as a fact, except the point of execution is a moment Lorenzo almost crashed. Ducati may have discussed a possible scenario of pulling over, that scenario never materialized. You state that Lorenzo pulled over as fact, giving up a win, based on a routine mapping suggestion and an almost crash. That's very thin evidence, and quite astonishing that a rider might fake a front end loss of momentary control, in the rain (where it's common to happen, see Marquez) to comply with such a request.

Dovi has managed most his wins by attacking in the last stages of race distance, meanwhile, the exact opposite for Lorenzo has occurred, getting out to blistering starts and losing pace at some point, then stabilizing; that is, exactly what happened at Malaysia.

Lorenzo didn’t go for the win? How many times this year has Lorenzo led races this year, all those races he didn't go for the win? He had no choice! Dovi was willing to risk far more for the win, and that's exactly why he won! Not because of some projected Ducati order. Not racing aggressively has never been mistaken for executions of team orders, that's actually a protracted debate I've had with Arrabi. Those two things do not equate. However in this case, Lorenzo had no real choice in the matter, his choice was 2nd or bin, NOT win or bin. Keeping up with Dovi's superior pace in worsening conditions 6 laps to go (weather was not static like Pov would like to believe analyzing laps and how each rider manages the knife's edge) was a proposition for an increased risk of crashing out. Dovi has proven several times this year he is simply better, noteworthy in these exact conditions no less, look back to Motegi, that was against the current undisputed alien of this time. But you want to believe Lorenzo was about to best Dovi in these conditions that Marquez himself failed to do?



If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
No Jum, its fact that Ducati have issues team orders this season. Ask Scott Redding.
 
Disagree P.

Were team orders executed? That's the operative question. Ducati discussed various scenarios, mainly not to race eachother aggressively ala Iannone, but pulling over is quite another thing; you state it as a fact, except the point of execution is a moment Lorenzo almost crashed. Ducati may have discussed a possible scenario of pulling over, that scenario never materialized. You state that Lorenzo pulled over as fact, giving up a win, based on a routine mapping suggestion and an almost crash. That's very thin evidence, and quite astonishing that a rider might fake a front end loss of momentary control, in the rain (where it's common to happen, see Marquez) to comply with such a request.

Dovi has managed most his wins by attacking in the last stages of race distance, meanwhile, the exact opposite for Lorenzo has occurred, getting out to blistering starts and losing pace at some point, then stabilizing; that is, exactly what happened at Malaysia.

Lorenzo didn’t go for the win? How many times this year has Lorenzo led races this year, all those races he didn't go for the win? He had no choice! Dovi was willing to risk far more for the win, and that's exactly why he won! Not because of some projected Ducati order. Not racing aggressively has never been mistaken for executions of team orders, that's actually a protracted debate I've had with Arrabi. Those two things do not equate. However in this case, Lorenzo had no real choice in the matter, his choice was 2nd or bin, NOT win or bin. Keeping up with Dovi's superior pace in worsening conditions 6 laps to go (weather was not static like Pov would like to believe analyzing laps and how each rider manages the knife's edge) was a proposition for an increased risk of crashing out. Dovi has proven several times this year he is simply better, noteworthy in these exact conditions no less, look back to Motegi, that was against the current undisputed alien of this time. But you want to believe Lorenzo was about to best Dovi in these conditions that Marquez himself failed to do?



If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
You need some new material. Your debating strategy of dazzling with a thousand words of the same ole ........ is getting kind of old. ;) You seriously think that Ducati had team orders for Redding and not Lorenzo. Like I said , no big deal it's the right thing to do and there was never any doubt once Dovi took second that Lorenzo was going to finish second.
 
No Jum, its fact that Ducati have issues team orders this season. Ask Scott Redding.
Yes, I'm aware. That's not what either of us are contending: You're using that to conclude Lorenzo pulled over when he almost crashed, then stretching it to project Lorenzo gave up a win.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
You need some new material. Your debating strategy of dazzling with a thousand words of the same ole ........ is getting kind of old. ;) You seriously think that Ducati had team orders for Redding and not Lorenzo. Like I said , no big deal it's the right thing to do and there was never any doubt once Dovi took second that Lorenzo was going to finish second.

Buh buh buhht, he has so many words!
 
Yes, I'm aware. That's not what either of us are contending: You're using that to conclude Lorenzo pulled over when he almost crashed, then stretching it to project Lorenzo gave up a win.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

In the post you quoted I was speaking about team orders that we knew had happened. I said I wondered what Ducati were willing to do to win the championship. Later in the thread we also spoke about Lorenzos disappointment from finishing second and his confidence he could've at least fought for the win if it was anyone else that got in front of him. Lorenzo fed a message and immediately drops half a second to Dovi. Not suspect at all.

It's funny Jum you use a string of coincidences to prove that DORNA have manipulated the series to favour Rossi - something that I agree with for the most part. Yet you're arguing against similar proof when it comes to Ducati team orders.
 
You need some new material. Your debating strategy of dazzling with a thousand words of the same ole ........ is getting kind of old. ;)

You seriously think that Ducati had team orders for Redding and not Lorenzo. Like I said , no big deal it's the right thing to do and there was never any doubt once Dovi took second that Lorenzo was going to finish second.

Are you trying to dazzle me with uncharacteristic takes best reserved for noobs to the sport?

I'll make the posts shorter then. Your trying to change what we're debating, I know Ducati discussed team orders, i said it in my posts, scroll up, you're saying this is precisely why Lorenzo "pulled over" and "gave up a win" that's the ......... Since when did wins become guaranteed with 6 laps to go? Dovi's MO all season has been to get stronger the closing stages, Lorenzo has been to drop off and stabilize.


We both agree team orders were discussed if the scenario arose, it never did, just as much as Petrucci didn’t need to "pull over" or not challenge for the win at Sepang, because frankly he had no choice in the matter based on Dovi's performance. You're convinced Lorenzo pulled over 'because' Ducati wanted Dovi to stay in the championship, you refuse to consider the more obvious reality that Dovi has been the best Ducati rider, this race being no exception.

Second was no guaranteed either. Lorenzo crashed out this year. Nothing is guaranteed, you should know better than to argue from such a weak position for motorsport.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
In the post you quoted I was speaking about team orders that we knew had happened. I said I wondered what Ducati were willing to do to win the championship. Later in the thread we also spoke about Lorenzos disappointment from finishing second and his confidence he could've at least fought for the win if it was anyone else that got in front of him. Lorenzo fed a message and immediately drops half a second to Dovi. Not suspect at all.

It's funny Jum you use a string of coincidences to prove that DORNA have manipulated the series to favour Rossi - something that I agree with for the most part. Yet you're arguing against similar proof when it comes to Ducati team orders.

Jlo faked that save. Pretty clever. Where did he hide the red sharpie?




If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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Jlo faked that save. Pretty clever. Where did he hide the red sharpie?

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Has nothing to do with the save. Everything to do with his lap times slowing before he nearly lost the front. As I said earlier, losing the front could've been a symptom of a loss in concentration after purposefully slowing down. So the near crash neither proves or disproves that his lap times slowed by his own doing so Dovi could win.
 
Has nothing to do with the save. Everything to do with his lap times slowing before he nearly lost the front. As I said earlier, losing the front could've been a symptom of a loss in concentration after purposefully slowing down. So the near crash neither proves or disproves that his lap times slowed by his own doing so Dovi could win.
And more likely his drop in pace was a drop in front tire which he said was on the limit. What caused Marc's moment? Did they send him a message to stay behind Zarco?

You said I use coincidences for "proof".
Proof, in this case is what? We're not debating team orders, we're debating if Dovi needed them to win. You want to believe that this race was the exception to Dovi's MO of racing this season and Lorenzo's save was a cause of team orders that otherwise he would have won, something he hasn't done all year, even in similar conditions, whilst simultaneously Dovi has mastered.
If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
And more likely his drop in pace was a drop in front tire which he said was on the limit. What caused Marc's moment? Did they send him a message to stay behind Zarco?

You said I use coincidences for "proof".
Proof, in this case is what? We're not debating team orders, we're debating if Dovi needed them to win. You want to believe that this race was the exception to Dovi's MO of racing this season and Lorenzo's save was a cause of team orders that otherwise he would have won, something he hasn't done all year, even in similar conditions, whilst simultaneously Dovi has mastered.
If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

I am not sure what percentages I would put on each possibility, but I think both alternatives being debated are possible. Sure Dovi might have got him, or did get him, anyway just with normal racing, and he has certainly proved superior in the last laps in many races this season. It is also imo possible that Jorge was in a sweet spot in this particular race and in a position to push for a win as he more or less actually said, particularly with little to lose personally, but didn’t go all out because of the risk to his team-mate’s title chances both by beating him or crashing out himself.
 
Has nothing to do with the save. Everything to do with his lap times slowing before he nearly lost the front. As I said earlier, losing the front could've been a symptom of a loss in concentration after purposefully slowing down. So the near crash neither proves or disproves that his lap times slowed by his own doing so Dovi could win.

Maybe the loss of lap time is purely due to the condition of his front tyre,hence the almost crash at a similar stage of the race. It's more likely he dropped half a second per lap due to tyre condition than team orders IMO. It also began raining again in the last few laps, so if Dovi had managed his tyre better, then we end up with the result we had. Either way, team orders or not, I am happier to give Dovi kudos for his win rather than shitcan Ducati for doing what is best for the team. Lorenzo will truely beat Dovi soon, but he wasn't good enough this week.
 

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