MalaysianGP 2017

p4p1 · Nov 2, 2017

Jumkie said:
Nobody?

Funny thing about a forum, it records what people write.

-----

No my friend, actually you are suggesting the opposite, 'Lorenzo' 'probably would've won' unless team orders, "Lorenzo not going for the win", and Povol going so far as to saying "Lorenzo gave up his first win".

Unless you go back and edit your posts and retract, it's usually not a good idea to later claim the opposite because we can easily revisit the post buddy. I don’t mind us changing our minds though and I've certainly changed my once I've realized my position is untenable. No shame in that. Povol my good friend has chosen to double triple down though, even to the point of suggesting qualifying and race positions are uncorrelated, which I debunked.

Oh, and again, we're not disputing the existence of team order, in case you want to say that for a third time. So to recap, you are decided denying Dovi "probably" would have won by saying Lorenzo gave up the position.

May I quote Povol? "Next".

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

No I'm not, I'm objecting to the fact that Ducati have been issuing team orders since the fly aways started. Dovi probably gets by Lorenzo in the end but we don't know if he could've stayed there or if he could've done it had he not been fighting for the championship. I don't know why you continue to push the ........ that Ducati team orders haven't been there or it's not possible that they've played a part this season. For someone who was so outraged by the Rossi rule and so damning on Petrucci giving position at Valencia you seem surprisingly ok with Ducati ordering riders to do the same for Dovi.

The point is with Ducati not so subtly issuing team orders is that we don't know that Dovi would've won if Lorenzo had've decided to fight for the win.

Jumkie · Nov 2, 2017

birdman said:
I’m laughing at Pov posting he actually wishes the title was already decided so he can watch Marquez ride unhindered by the burden of a championship in the balance. Pov seams to regard Dovi as nothing but a pesky mosquito which he would like nothing more than to swat out of the way of the ‘aliens’. Pretty comical when a person says he actually wishes the title was wrapped up early. We all just want to watch Marquez ride with both arms again. I kind of like championships going to the wire myself.

This had me rolling too when I read cute and cuddly Pov wish the beast twas unleashed, perhaps he forgot what the beast did when he wrapped up the title last time. Marc set off a string of race crashes. I didn't want to "dazzle" Pov with too many words, so I stuck to just pointing out his laughable (i say this in a loving tone) assertion that Lorenzo gave up a guaranteed win in the RAIN with 6 laps to go (a lifetime in the wet) after a near faked crash with the red sharpie skid on the tarmac to boot.

I'm actually quite disappointed with the take that Dovi was gifted this win based on Lorenzo following team orders because beside it being absurd, it's disrespectful, it reminds me of the arrogance Rossi fans rationalize when his rivals succeed on their own accord. I sense a bit of this bopper territory happening for Marquez. Pedrosa couldn't possibly cruised one position behind Marquez but Dovi's teammate just pulled aside and let him through. Same goes for Marc's supposed hands tied behind his back with the myth of an atrocious RCV whilst Ducati is the new easy to ride rocketship, when have I heard this reasoning before?

Marquez is certainly extraordinary, and I like his new approach, wiser and much more mature. He's a thrill to watch, but because of his phenomenal skill he's taken as infallible. Just look no further than the rationalization that because he's had some spectacular saves it proves he's supernatural, think about that "reasoning" for a moment, because he made a mistake that needed correction it shows how infallible he is, reminds me of Hack Oxley's rationale that Crashloads crashes prove his tenacity is unrivaled. Wait, what the ....? I hope his fans, among which i raise my hand, don't become as insufferable as Rossi’s, never accepting any poor performance or flaws but blaming everything else, machine, rivals, etc.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

JPSLotus · Nov 2, 2017

Jumkie said:
This had me rolling too when I read cute and cuddly Pov wish the beast twas unleashed, perhaps he forgot what the beast did when he wrapped up the title last time. Marc set off a string of race crashes. I didn't want to "dazzle" Pov with too many words, so I stuck to just pointing out his laughable (i say this in a loving tone) assertion that Lorenzo gave up a guaranteed win in the RAIN with 6 laps to go (a lifetime in the wet) after a near faked crash with the red sharpie skid on the tarmac to boot.

I'm actually quite disappointed with the take that Dovi was gifted this win based on Lorenzo following team orders because beside it being absurd, it's disrespectful, it reminds me of the arrogance Rossi fans rationalize when his rivals succeed on their own accord. I sense a bit of this bopper territory happening for Marquez. Pedrosa couldn't possibly cruised one position behind Marquez but Dovi's teammate just pulled aside and let him through. Same goes for Marc's supposed hands tied behind his back with the myth of an atrocious RCV whilst Ducati is the new easy to ride rocketship, when have I heard this reasoning before?

Marquez is certainly extraordinary, and I like his new approach, wiser and much more mature. He's a thrill to watch, but because of his phenomenal skill he's taken as infallible. Just look no further than the rationalization that because he's had some spectacular saves it proves he's supernatural, think about that "reasoning" for a moment, because he made a mistake that needed correction it shows how infallible he is, reminds me of Hack Oxley's rationale that Crashloads crashes prove his tenacity is unrivaled. Wait, what the ....? I hope his fans, among which i raise my hand, don't become as insufferable as Rossi’s, never accepting any poor performance or flaws but blaming everything else, machine, rivals, etc.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

No one said Dovi was gifted the win, they were saying that once Lorenzo made the error, he was never going to be able to fight back due to the team orders. Understandable because of the stakes, but regrettable as it would have been interesting to see how things unfolded.

You've been out here peddling Dovizioso as an alien myth for the last month or two which is a joke in itself given he couldn't even beat Pedrosa and Casey Stoner on the Repsol Honda. He isn't an alien. He's a guy who has come into his own from having stability by being at the same team for 5 successive seasons which is extremely difficult to achieve in a sport that demands instant results, and wants those results yesterday. The other half of it you ignore is that the turn around began when the VW Group purchased Ducati in 2012. That purchase was huge and it's no coincidence Ducati's GP fortunes slowly have upticked since 2013. Do they have the resources of HRC? No, but who else does? Doesn't mean they are building bikes along the lines of the GP7 thru GP12 anymore though because they sure as .... aren't.

There was a general consensus on this forum the last 2 years that the RCV was not a good bike, and was the worst of the three top factory bikes. It was written about ad nauseum here and elsewhere, why you've chosen to disregard this is anyone's guess. When Stoner went back to Ducati he mentioned HRC ...... up with the 2015 bike engine. Also keep in mind Marquez is still using the swingarm from 2014 last I heard. If someone knows otherwise please do correct me. Not really the sign of a bike that's been properly sorted out when it's an amalgam of parts with a brand new engine firing sequence. They used a screamer for '15 and '16 and then switched back to a big bang for '17. Love the stability there at HRC. They had a lot of problems getting the electronics to work all of last season because as Nakamoto stated at the time, it was like going back to 2006 for them and they had to relearn everything where the learning curve for the software for Ducati was nowhere near that steep since they were already using the software and were well accustomed to it. It's not like Dovi was jumping onto a bike that has an amalgam of parts and was seeing another major engine overhaul for 2017. He's had a lot more stability than Marquez which makes what Marquez has had to deal with on the technical side of things far more impressive given what he has had to adapt to every single year. Mind you they are all having to adapt, but when your platform is relatively stable and the changes are progressive, adapting comes much more easily than when you are dealing with an unstable platform.

Marquez isn't infallible, but the kid is immensely talented. He's the sort you will tell your grandkids about one day that "you had to see him ride in person". His resume at 23 is stunning to look at. He has more pole positions than anyone in history. Sure I am a big fan of his because I'd rather see him wipe out every single one of Rossi's records. Birdman may not want to see it. I do. That's me personally and not everyone feels that way, or wants to see that. Competitive racing is better for the sport at the end of the day no doubt. I hope he has longevity more than anything because lets face it, his riding style does put him at risk of not having longevity over the course of time. I will say for as much as I love him, he still has plenty of room to grow out there mentally, and he has not yet learned everything there is to know because he still lacks plenty of experience that he simply isn't going to get without more years under his belt.

Jumkie · Nov 2, 2017

#22 said:
Dovi most likely won the race on pure pace... Lorenzo did not battle him as hard...

As for looking into the races too much, posting 30,000 word essays each post could be contrived as looking into things much too, no?

It obvious you're referring to me with your essay quip, have the balls to quote me if you wish to engage in debate rather than ..... foot around in the shadows 22 face. If the word count is a problem for you, have someone read it out loud or just skip and move on fella. It's a tired old quip, unoriginal, and rather lame.

---

Here's what we're NOT debating: the existence of team orders. Though apparently one caveat, supposedly Ducati are exclusively the only one who've ever had the idea, nobody else, particularly Honda.

Here's what we are debating, Dovi beating Lorenzo outright making team orders a moot point, as moot as the finishing order of the Honda teammates.

Typical 22, you're straddling the fence, playing both sides, as usual: 'Dovi probably won... Lorenzo probably let him have it.' You've covered all the bases.

Let's shine a light on your indecision. Do you have the same take for Marc vs Pedro? 'Marc probably won...Pedro probably let him have it.'

Whats different other than a double standard? Exposes a bit the chickenshit nature of putting your balls on the fence for support.

Both can't be absolutely true. You may think riding the fence gains respect from both ends, but it never does, people quickly figure you out slick.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

#22 · Nov 2, 2017

Jumkie said:
It obvious you're referring to me with your essay quip, have the balls to quote me if you wish to engage in debate rather than ..... foot around in the shadows 22 face. If the word count is a problem for you, have someone read it out loud or just skip and move on fella. It's a tired old quip, unoriginal, and rather lame.

---

Here's what we're NOT debating: the existence of team orders. Though apparently one caveat, supposedly Ducati are exclusively the only one who've ever had the idea, nobody else, particularly Honda.

Here's what we are debating, Dovi beating Lorenzo outright making team orders a moot point, as moot as the finishing order of the Honda teammates.

Typical 22, you're straddling the fence, playing both sides, as usual: 'Dovi probably won... Lorenzo probably let him have it.' You've covered all the bases.

Let's shine a light on your indecision. Do you have the same take for Marc vs Pedro? 'Marc probably won...Pedro probably let him have it.'

Whats different other than a double standard? Exposes a bit the chickenshit nature of putting your balls on the fence for support.

Both can't be absolutely true. You may think riding the fence gains respect from both ends, but it never does, people quickly figure you out slick.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

I don't need to quote you, because I've mentioned it point blank to you before about your long posts which most of the time I find informative, however if you now choose to take offence to that then that's your prerogative. Ironic how you continually brand me a 'chickenshit in your post yet ignored my rather direct whatsapp messages for months and now accuse me of being 'on the fence', a bit like you kept using #22 insults on here and pushing them off as referring to Chad Reed. Pot, kettle and black come to mind.

Anyway, unless you have a smoking gun to prove otherwise, my assertions are correct. We don't know how much pace Dovi OR Lorenzo had left had they not been team mates or had Dovi not had a championship on the line. There was no probably about it, and never did I mention the word probably...that's you making assumptions yet again. I said quite frankly, that once Dovi got past Lorenzo, Lorenzo was not going to challenge him given the championship position, but clearly you didn't read that as it goes against your narrative.

As for Honda. As Povol said, Pedrosa set his pole time in the dry. In the wet, while better than his past wet races this year, he didn't have the pace. Honda would enact team orders were it required, but they weren't.. His laptimes are on average 0.5s a lap slower than Marquez, even when he could have got a toe from Dovi. If he had the pace to catch Marquez, then he would done so. Lorenzo and Dovi were much closer matched in laptimes, as I took time to illustrate. But anyway, no more time will be wasted on the subject by me, as I have plenty of other things to do than to nitpick every single word that is posted on here. Enjoy

AntG · Nov 2, 2017

All this talk about aliens!

Dovi is like Alien 3, enjoyable but not as good as the first 2.

RCV600RR · Nov 2, 2017

JPSLotus said:
No one said Dovi was gifted the win, they were saying that once Lorenzo made the error, he was never going to be able to fight back due to the team orders. Understandable because of the stakes, but regrettable as it would have been interesting to see how things unfolded.

You've been out here peddling Dovizioso as an alien myth for the last month or two which is a joke in itself given he couldn't even beat Pedrosa and Casey Stoner on the Repsol Honda. He isn't an alien. He's a guy who has come into his own from having stability by being at the same team for 5 successive seasons which is extremely difficult to achieve in a sport that demands instant results, and wants those results yesterday. The other half of it you ignore is that the turn around began when the VW Group purchased Ducati in 2012. That purchase was huge and it's no coincidence Ducati's GP fortunes slowly have upticked since 2013. Do they have the resources of HRC? No, but who else does? Doesn't mean they are building bikes along the lines of the GP7 thru GP12 anymore though because they sure as .... aren't.

There was a general consensus on this forum the last 2 years that the RCV was not a good bike, and was the worst of the three top factory bikes. It was written about ad nauseum here and elsewhere, why you've chosen to disregard this is anyone's guess. When Stoner went back to Ducati he mentioned HRC ...... up with the 2015 bike engine. Also keep in mind Marquez is still using the swingarm from 2014 last I heard. If someone knows otherwise please do correct me. Not really the sign of a bike that's been properly sorted out when it's an amalgam of parts with a brand new engine firing sequence. They used a screamer for '15 and '16 and then switched back to a big bang for '17. Love the stability there at HRC. They had a lot of problems getting the electronics to work all of last season because as Nakamoto stated at the time, it was like going back to 2006 for them and they had to relearn everything where the learning curve for the software for Ducati was nowhere near that steep since they were already using the software and were well accustomed to it. It's not like Dovi was jumping onto a bike that has an amalgam of parts and was seeing another major engine overhaul for 2017. He's had a lot more stability than Marquez which makes what Marquez has had to deal with on the technical side of things far more impressive given what he has had to adapt to every single year. Mind you they are all having to adapt, but when your platform is relatively stable and the changes are progressive, adapting comes much more easily than when you are dealing with an unstable platform.

Marquez isn't infallible, but the kid is immensely talented. He's the sort you will tell your grandkids about one day that "you had to see him ride in person". His resume at 23 is stunning to look at. He has more pole positions than anyone in history. Sure I am a big fan of his because I'd rather see him wipe out every single one of Rossi's records. Birdman may not want to see it. I do. That's me personally and not everyone feels that way, or wants to see that. Competitive racing is better for the sport at the end of the day no doubt. I hope he has longevity more than anything because lets face it, his riding style does put him at risk of not having longevity over the course of time. I will say for as much as I love him, he still has plenty of room to grow out there mentally, and he has not yet learned everything there is to know because he still lacks plenty of experience that he simply isn't going to get without more years under his belt.

The Dovizioso of today is not the Dovizioso of 2011. That's for sure! He has improved a lot.

RCV600RR · Nov 2, 2017

Jumkie said:
No one other than Pedrosa and his telemetry guy knows if he let Marc have 4th.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

There are a few material differences between the two situations which make your analogy uncompelling...

JohnnyKnockdown · Nov 2, 2017

#22 said:
yet ignored my rather direct whatsapp messages for months

Is this true Jum? Are you in the secret groupchat?

Jumkie · Nov 2, 2017

#22 said:
if you now choose to take offence to that then that's your prerogative. Ironic how you continually brand me a 'chickenshit in your post yet ignored my rather direct whatsapp messages for months and now accuse me of being 'on the fence'...

Act like your dig wasn't aimed to get a reaction, which had nothing at all to do and derails what has been a robust racing debate, I gave you the attention you craved, you're welcome.

Maybe it's lost in translation, but you've misused the idiom, not lost though is a pathetic mention of your disingenuous personal inquiry, confirming I may add, my assessment of the situation. Once I figured your 22 face out (that's an idiom), there was no reason to further engage you on a personal 'good faith' level, sadly. Its really unfortunate. However, in regard to your miss use of the fence idiom, i don't need to provide your need for closure. Other than today regarding a racing take, I've not "continually branded you chickenshit", you're confused or can't distinguish, or both. Anyway, I've like your Oxley rifts, I'm fine with engaging you on the forum about racing or not.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Jumkie · Nov 2, 2017

RCV600RR said:
There are a few material differences between the two situations which make your analogy uncompelling...

Ah yes, it's called a double standard my friend. I don’t understand the skepticism on Dovi, it's as if he's a rival to Rossi the way he's been treated. Maybe there is no hope to rid us of this dynamic, disappointing. Nonetheless, I've given plenty of reasons why there are similarities, the issue is simply bias, Dovi can't possibly best his teammate without help, Pedrosa doesn't measure up to Marc's knees (pun intended).

Team orders: only Ducati, but no no no never Honda
Rain struggle: Pedrosa only but not Lorenzo
Cruising shotgun: Lorenzo did but never Pedrosa
Qualifying: Pedrosa dry, no relevance; Lorenzo dry, fully relevant
Rider's self reliance: Dovi needs help Marc is god.

It's almost like Dovi hasn't won 5 races to his teammate's zero; Marc has wiped the floor with Pedrosa in similar fashion, but Dovi needs team orders. Maybe Dovi beating Marquez in the rain and the dry didn’t happen and we all imagined it for him to now necessarily need team orders to beat his Pedrosa teammate that hasn't won.

No, the similarities are material, they scream neon stark parallels, it's the double standard that seems to be the only material issue.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

birdman · Nov 2, 2017

p4p1 said:
I don't think anyone is denying that Dovi probably would've won. More that Ducati sent out team orders to make sure he won.

What exactly were the team orders? I tend to agree with J4 on this. Ducati suggested to the riders to ride their own race but please don’t engage with Dovi ‘if’ he is the faster rider. As has been pointed out by Mike it only works from the front. Not much use staying behind Dovi if he’s in 10th place is it. Ignoring the fact that Dovi had to be the fastest guy on track (he overtakes and rides away from Marquez if anyone cares to remember) maybe Ducati just wanted to be a ‘team’ and avoid the embarrassment of the infamous Pedro torpedo of 06.

What exactly has Ducati done to scew the flyaways? Prevent someone crashing Dovi out? Is that want you wanted to see? I don’t get it the races were just races to me. It’s almost like people think Lorenzo was 5 seconds up the road, got the map 8 message, pulled over for a cigarette and waited for poor old donkey Dovi (he’s no alien but he does occassionally beat the aliens alien thanks to .......... insert reason here wings, VW, team orders) to catch up. It doesn’t matter that we already saw Lorenzo nearly crash right in front of Dovi, which btw might have caused Dovi to crash as well. We still have to peddle this coulda woulda shoulda version Lorenzo might have been able to go even faster still. Yeah right he might have been faster sliding on his ... into the gravel trap than Cal Crashfast because it looked to me Lorenzo was over cooked. Alternatively if he had of ‘pushed on’ as people seam to think he coulda we might have been treated to the torpedo part 2. That woulda been interesting, curse Ducati for ruining the fun.

I’m being an ....... here but really all I’m saying is Ducati invested absolute millions into this sport hoping for that one chance. It arrives in the unexpected form of Dovi and Ducati try to protect what they invested to keep the dream alive. End of. There was no ban put on riders ability to race for the win or orders to play follow the leader if Lorenzo coulda won by 5 seconds he woulda but it simply didn’t happen.

michaelm · Nov 3, 2017

Jumkie said:
Ah yes, it's called a double standard my friend. I don’t understand the skepticism on Dovi, it's as if he's a rival to Rossi the way he's been treated. Maybe there is no hope to rid us of this dynamic, disappointing. Nonetheless, I've given plenty of reasons why there are similarities, the issue is simply bias, Dovi can't possibly best his teammate without help, Pedrosa doesn't measure up to Marc's knees (pun intended).

Team orders: only Ducati, but no no no never Honda
Rain struggle: Pedrosa only but not Lorenzo
Cruising shotgun: Lorenzo did but never Pedrosa
Qualifying: Pedrosa dry, no relevance; Lorenzo dry, fully relevant
Rider's self reliance: Dovi needs help Marc is god.

It's almost like Dovi hasn't won 5 races to his teammate's zero; Marc has wiped the floor with Pedrosa in similar fashion, but Dovi needs team orders. Maybe Dovi beating Marquez in the rain and the dry didn’t happen and we all imagined it for him to now necessarily need team orders to beat his Pedrosa teammate that hasn't won.

No, the similarities are material, they scream neon stark parallels, it's the double standard that seems to be the only material issue.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Absolutely no doubt that Dovi has trounced Lorenzo on a whole season basis (probably for something like 20% of the salary), that his superior results to Lorenzo in nearly every race and in particular in his 5 other race wins have nothing to do with Ducati team orders, and that he has indeed given Marc Marquez a tremendous fight which is not yet over, a contest during which most if not all the advantages have been on Marc's side.

I think it quite likely, as you, Birdman and others do, that Dovi was the winner of the race regardless, for the reasons you argue. I don't however see it as an outrageous slur in regard to a single race in unusual conditions during which Jorge kept his pace for more of the race than had previously been the case, was still running lap times close to Dovi's towards the end of the race and was disappointed rather than delighted with a podium as opposed to previous podiums and said himself as opposed to after previous podiums that he had thought he had some chance of winning, in a circumstance where team orders would be expected to be operating and we have fairly strong indications were operating, to raise the possibility that team orders had an influence.

I disagree with any contention that a Lorenzo win was certain, and if Honda expect me to believe they had no team orders in place there is a rather classic looking Harbour Bridge about 5 km away from where I sit which I could sell them for a good price.

I am (obviously) getting old now, but team orders have mostly been a given in these circumstances in many forms of motor sport previously. There does seem to be a concern about admitting to them these days, possibly because of betting etc being involved; there has been a wariness in F1 about them, or admitting to them anyway, for a while, perhaps starting with a controversy after an Australian GP some years back in regard to (legal) betting on the race.

I see team orders as quite different to riders not on the same team supposedly having an obligation not to beat title contenders.

Mick D · Nov 3, 2017

birdman said:
I had to go back and watch the race again. The first time round I didn’t pay any attention to the commentary.

What feed did u watch?

birdman · Nov 3, 2017

Mick D said:
What feed did u watch?

.... Harris & co offfical feed via satelight tv, we have limited internet where I live (with kangaroos)

JohnnyKnockdown · Nov 3, 2017

birdman said:
.... Harris & co offfical feed via satelight tv, we have limited internet where I live (with kangaroos)

When are we getting some Kangaroo pics?

#22 · Nov 3, 2017

birdman said:
I’m being an ....... here but really all I’m saying is Ducati invested absolute millions into this sport hoping for that one chance. It arrives in the unexpected form of Dovi and Ducati try to protect what they invested to keep the dream alive. End of. There was no ban put on riders ability to race for the win or orders to play follow the leader if Lorenzo coulda won by 5 seconds he woulda but it simply didn’t happen.

I think that is debatable personally. Given that Redding was clearly told in PI to hand a place to Dovi, when Dovi was reeling in faster laps than him and would have passed him anyway, why would Ducati suddenly allow his direct team mate to race him freely for the win? I agree the most likely winner of the race was Dovi, but given Lorenzo lapped relatively close to Dovi's pace after lap 15 it means two things. Either Dovi backed off knowing he wouldn't be all out challenged by his team mate like another competitor, or Lorenzo had pace in his pocket. We'll never know and it isn't important because Dovi won.

birdman · Nov 3, 2017

JohnnyKnockdown said:
When are we getting some Kangaroo pics?

Doing their thing? Actually I don’t really know how kangers do the deed. I know people like to eat them though. I think we can actually buy kangaroo meat at the supermarket, or if not at least the butcher. Weird place eh?

p4p1 · Nov 3, 2017

birdman said:
Doing their thing? Actually I don’t really know how kangers do the deed. I know people like to eat them though. I think we can actually buy kangaroo meat at the supermarket, or if not at least the butcher. Weird place eh?

They sell kangaroo at all the supermarkets near me. It's actually extremely lean meat and high in protein, if it didn't taste so ......... I would probably eat it a few nights a week.

Theo · Nov 3, 2017

p4p1 said:
They sell kangaroo at all the supermarkets near me. It's actually extremely lean meat and high in protein, if it didn't taste so ......... I would probably eat it a few nights a week.

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