Last Lap Overtaking Stats

ZERO LAST-LAP PASSES IN THE LAST TWO SEASONS!

Statistics can be deceiving, but look at these:

500cc -- 1999: 43,7 % of wins obtained with last-lap passes
990cc -- 2003: 18,7 %
800cc -- 2007: 0
800cc -- 2008: 0



Source: Motosprint (IT)

It seems we really have to thank Honda for this wonderful 800cc formula!
Now they think they could even retire...
First they spoil the party, then they say they may leave it.


The question is: WHAT CAN BE DONE NOW?
Too impractical to change displacement again.

The single-supplier controlled tyre can be part of the solution. Another important part would be to lift fuel restrictions. This restriction is another ecample of Honda's hypocrisy when they want to look 'green': who can ever believe that taking out 2 or 3 liters from the tank of MotoGP bikes has any ecological value, even just symbolic???

Lifting fuel restrictions could also diminish the importance of electronic aids. Nowadays, probably no bike could make the meager fuel last to the finish line without electronics.

How do you force close racing? I don't think anybody really knows to be honest. The most obvious answers............

Control more things: Make stuff the same and hope that lots of similar machines will then race close to each other.

Encourage variation: Overtaking happens when two vehicles go a significantly different speed, not when they are all the same.

Remove as much precision as possible: Stop the teams from learning so much, and stop the teams from using their knowledge so extensively. If the bikes, riders and setups are further from ideal then more variation in performance could be seen.

I'm thinking this situation is mostly because of the improved technology and electronics.

But you have to take into account that I don't really know anything about the improved technology and electronics of MotoGP...

Whatever the reason, those statistics are depressing! How come there is no-one who knows this .... that isn't doing something to fix this situation?

repost!

i have a thread here on the subject...with charts.. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

Oh yeah.... Just found that thread:
http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?...=9069&st=40

But hey! Maybe the control tire will help... Or maybe the sport will have to get to the same point as F1 was around 2004, before we see a change (Some could argue that we are already there).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Dec 15 2008, 01:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How do you force close racing? I don't think anybody really knows to be honest. The most obvious answers............
WSBK

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Dec 15 2008, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>WSBK

FTW... it's gonna ROCK 09...GP better pull the finger out.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wander @ Dec 15 2008, 11:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh yeah.... Just found that thread:
http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?...=9069&st=40

But hey! Maybe the control tire will help... Or maybe the sport will have to get to the same point as F1 was around 2004, before we see a change (Some could argue that we are already there).

Or maybe not,according to Carmelo,that would just be a positive side affect if it happened.Sounds like he is already hedging his bets on what the new tire rule was for and what it was supposed to do.

And what will the new single-tire regulations bring?

CE: “I think the single tire rule will contribute to eliminating the doubts about equality. I don’t know if it will contribute definitively to making the races more or less hotly contested, but for me this was not our principal objective. Our principal objective is to reduce costs because we are in a word economic crisis.

They didn't force close racing, they forced racing with little overtaking by making fundamental changes to the sport without considering the impact on the spectacle or the heritage of the sport.

I think the change to 4 strokes was necessary for the sport, but DORNA/FIM/MSMA have gone out of their way to ignore the warnings issued by people who were passionately invested in MotoGP.

The spectacle of 990cc racing was enough to allow fans, promoters, and participants to casually gloss over some of the sport's glaring new flaws. Now that the 990s are gone, fuel has been overly restricted, and electronics have taken over much of the rider's duties; the flaws characterize MotoGP and the competitive environment.

In a nutshell, the sport as become a joke. The 800s are faster, more expensive, and more dangerous in some regards. The first 5 years of 990cc were an overwhelming success with one dark spot that was caused mainly by poor circuit safety not engine capacity.

Everything that has happened since Kato's death, has been to the injury of MotoGP.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wander @ Dec 15 2008, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Oh yeah.... Just found that thread:
http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?...=9069&st=40

But hey! Maybe the control tire will help... Or maybe the sport will have to get to the same point as F1 was around 2004, before we see a change (Some could argue that we are already there).

F1 arguably had more exciting racing than motogp this season

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wander @ Dec 15 2008, 03:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How come there is no-one who knows this .... that isn't doing something to fix this situation?

There are "experts" changing the rules of all kinds of racing series' to try and force close racing, and its almost universally failing. Nobody really knows what to do and there are obviously many factors to consider besides the quality of racing, so isn't a free reign either.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Dec 15 2008, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>F1 arguably had more exciting racing than motogp this season

Yeah, I think you could say that for some races. But F1 was horrible a few years back imo.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Dec 15 2008, 10:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>CE: “I think the single tire rule will contribute to eliminating the doubts about equality. I don’t know if it will contribute definitively to making the races more or less hotly contested, but for me this was not our principal objective. Our principal objective is to reduce costs because we are in a word economic crisis.

This confused the hell out of me povol.

CE = Colin Edwards.

The man you are taking about is named Ezy.

povols been hittin the shine methinks...

Umm... CE stands for Carmelo Ezpeleta actually.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Dec 15 2008, 01:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>They didn't force close racing, they forced racing with little overtaking by making fundamental changes to the sport without considering the impact on the spectacle or the heritage of the sport.

I think the change to 4 strokes was necessary for the sport, but DORNA/FIM/MSMA have gone out of their way to ignore the warnings issued by people who were passionately invested in MotoGP.

The spectacle of 990cc racing was enough to allow fans, promoters, and participants to casually gloss over some of the sport's glaring new flaws. Now that the 990s are gone, fuel has been overly restricted, and electronics have taken over much of the rider's duties; the flaws characterize MotoGP and the competitive environment.

In a nutshell, the sport as become a joke. The 800s are faster, more expensive, and more dangerous in some regards. The first 5 years of 990cc were an overwhelming success with one dark spot that was caused mainly by poor circuit safety not engine capacity.

Everything that has happened since Kato's death, has been to the injury of MotoGP.

I've dragged my feet for some time on accepting four-strokes in the premier class and can live with it. I stopped following Moto GP for a lot of years - so am not so well informed - so pardon me if I sound naive - but my understanding of the reason behind the change - is that Honda - has forever HATED two-strokes - supposedly for many esoteric reasons - but in fact it's always been about the bottom line. What with so many countries outlawing them for the street - Honda saw the future and lobbied like crazy to change the premiere class - so GP races would act effectively as a world showroom for bikes that at least appear to be related to those they sell to the public.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Dec 16 2008, 02:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>WSBK
The new premier class - coming soon to a track near you. It's inevitable. Rossi may keep motoGP alive but once he's gone, motoGP will fade to it's inevitable death.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Dec 15 2008, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How do you force close racing? I don't think anybody really knows to be honest. The most obvious answers............

Control more things: Make stuff the same and hope that lots of similar machines will then race close to each other.

Encourage variation: Overtaking happens when two vehicles go a significantly different speed, not when they are all the same.

Remove as much precision as possible: Stop the teams from learning so much, and stop the teams from using their knowledge so extensively. If the bikes, riders and setups are further from ideal then more variation in performance could be seen.

Control more stuff: I dont think that is going to help. Its clear that certin riders can maxamise a package, perfect example of Casey on the Duke and Melandri. Identiacal package and Casey could maximise and develop it and Melandri could not.

Removing the precision is not a bad idea. This will make it harder for the guys to go to the limit. And lets face it, that is what makes a champion. Thats why Rossi and Casey are in a class of their own, they can get the bike to a stage early in the weekend where they feel as if they can put it to the limit consistently. In theory most bikes out there (no matter what make) would be able to win races if the rider and team were able to take them to their absolute limit.

Rossis ability to replicate this form over varying manufactorers and classes is amazing, I believe Casey has the ability to do this. Where as I look at Dani and he is good but i just dont see that inherent ability.

So by making things more unpredictable for the riders will possibly make things harder for the riders, but realistically the fast guys will continue to maximise what they have on offer and the slower guys will continue to struggle for balance and set up.

Im not convinced there is an anser to this issue.

Its kinda like the 100m sprint, 20 years ago (forget Ben Johnson) the world record was x number, everyone waas like man that is so fast how can it be beaten...well it has been and will continue to do so, when will it stop?? Who knows.

I think MotoGP is going through a similar stage, there are some riders that are going above and beyond what has been previously possible, maybe its greater lean angles, later braking, electronics, bravery...who knows. But the riders are getting better, the mechanics are getting smarter and it all results in a quicker lap time.

I dont see how we can blame rules and regs for this. Each team has the same opportunities avaliable to them. The rules should not be changed to accomodate the slow guys.

Keep in mind .3 a lap over 30 laps is approx 10 seconds. Seems like a thrashing, prehaps it is, but either way to try to manipulate regs to elimintate a tenth or two is nearly impossible.

Prehaps the reason this has happened is because the slower teams have dropped the ball.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Dec 16 2008, 02:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The new premier class - coming soon to a track near you. It's inevitable. Rossi may keep motoGP alive but once he's gone, motoGP will fade to it's inevitable death.
I had thought you unduly pessimistic, but as I recall WRC was a fairly major motorsport not too long ago. Subaru have just announced they are pulling out of the 2009 championship after suzuki announced their withdrawal yesterday.

I do see a problem with motogp bikes costing ten times more than wsbk machines and delivering what many (not necessarily me) consider an inferior spectacle. I am not sure that close racing (for the win at least) would be guaranteed by the formula alone if someone of rossi's ilk was racing in WSBK though.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Dec 16 2008, 01:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I had thought you unduly pessimistic, but as I recall WRC was a fairly major motorsport not too long ago. Subaru have just announced they are pulling out of the 2009 championship after suzuki announced their withdrawal yesterday.

with WRC stuttering and struggling as it is, will rossi have to go to WSB or F1? seems like his post gp options are narrowing too, will WRC be around for him to try out?