Last hope for Valentino...2012

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Good post Pete, but just to .... stir a little Rossi is the third most successful racer to date (based on Championship wins)



Giacomo Agostini - 15 championships (7 x 350, 6 x 500)

Angel Nieto - 12 championships (5 x 50cc, 7 x 125cc)



Not saying to diminish VR's achievements but to recognise those of the forgotten Nieto as whilst the classes may (to some) be seen as minor they were then incredibly serious and competitive.



And again Pete, the post was a good one as I (for one) post less at the moment whilst the ..... size comparison contest goes on











Gaz
 
Gaz said:
Good post Pete, but just to .... stir a little Rossi is the third most successful racer to date (based on Championship wins)



Giacomo Agostini - 15 championships (7 x 350, 6 x 500)

Angel Nieto - 12 championships (5 x 50cc, 7 x 125cc)



Not saying to diminish VR's achievements but to recognise those of the forgotten Nieto as whilst the classes may (to some) be seen as minor they were then incredibly serious and competitive.



And again Pete, the post was a good one as I (for one) post less at the moment whilst the ..... size comparison contest goes on











Gaz
Click to expand...





Fair call mate, should have said he has the second most race wins.



But to be picky, didn't Nieto have 13 titles, but referred to them as 12 + 1?
<




I strongly agree that titles in the lower classes are hugelly important. It wasn't that long ago that some riders were looked on as 250 specialists, ar indeed 125 or 80 specialists. A successful carreer in the lower capacity classes in some cases would be seen as preferable to a less successful career on the big bikes. I don't think that anyone would argue that Pedrosa's size is not always a good thing on a GP bike, particularly if things start getting a bit rough, on the flip side, it's almost painful to watch Scott Redding squeezed on the moto 2 bike!
 
basspete said:
I keep saying it, if Ducati, Honda whoever try anything within the legalities of racing to win races then it's cool. It's in any manufacturers interests to build a bike that any top level racer can win races on. how many frames dis Honda use last year? A conservative estimte is 8. Fact, any manufacturer is going to try and build the best machine possible, whatever it takes.



The problem here is that a handfull of folks cannot accept that Valentino Rossi is the second most successful rider of all time. Fact. I don't see many people argueing that Stoner and Lorenzo are the fastest guys out there now either. Stoner has not, and will not equal Rossi's success however. Accept this please, it doesn't mean folk are saying he's ....., it doesn't mean that Rossi must have cheated, or that the previous competition was crap. It is a statement of fact. Rossi is the second most successful bike racer of all time. Casey Stoner has won one world championship, is well on his way to another, and is the most successfull racer of the 800 generation. Fact.



Most of the folks on here have the intelligence to spot a bit of banter, and can tell when a post is meant to be light hearted. Others see a post saying "Rossi is the second most successful bike racer ever" and read it as "Stoner is .....". Sorry thats your problem, not anyone elses. As has been pointed out on here plenty, Stoner doesn't appear to give a .... what folks think of him, so why the football fan mentality of his fans if a post doesn't say "Stoner is the greatest rider ever." That they accuse the author of being gay, a mindless bopper, and knowing nothing about motorcycle racing. Truth be told, in the real world, Rossi fans I know are some of the most knowledgeable folk I know on the subject of bike racing, and like myself and many others have followed it for years.



Anyone is entitled to thinking their rider is the greatest ever, but that is your opinion, not documented fact.



When a load of us met up at Silverstone, the craic was great, yep there were different opinions, but so ...., it was a bunch of us havin a great time, and at the end of the day, enjoying motorcycle racing. The only time we all were gutted was when Super Sic binned it. nobody bitched or skirted when Stoner won. We just enjoyed the racing. Apart from our American friends who appeared to be freezing to death!



Yes I ken I'm guilty of winding up Stoner fans, but hey, when I read the crap that is posted about Rossi and anyone else who isn't Stoner then I like to get back at them. As Jumkie says, if you take this too seriously, then thats your deal not mine.
Click to expand...



Tru nuf. Tho - the first morning when we were all rubbing the sleep from our eyes in California, and heading towards Laguna I had my doubts with Clark. I was wearing my vintage Stoner T-shirt (the 2007 championship one with Stoner giving the #1 sign on one side and Rossi in the background looking dejected with his Fiat Yamaha leaned up against the retirement home). Clark glared at me like I'd offered to bone his sister. "There's one in every crowd" were his words and for the first day, he'd hardly ever talk to me. But by the time the weekend was finished - we were making plans to meet up in NYC. This forum should be fun, even for the ........
<
 
Nino said:
No I just don't like reading rubbish like 'Ducati must be unhappy with Rossi's lack of effort.'



As far as you saying Rossi's performance has sharply dropped this year, we all know that the biggest drop has been in his bikes performance. Or are we now saying Stoner had a massive drop in performance in 2009 and 2010 and performed poorly?
Click to expand...



Either you are a moron or... hang on youre just a moron..

Wtf... the bike is better than when casey rode because your 9 time lucky guy said it is. And he cant do .... on it !!! He is embarrassing himself and the very few fans he has left and he will continue to do so each time he throws his leg over it.

If casey rode it right now he would be over 1 second per lap faster than your 9 time champ on the alledged pos.

Then wtf would you say ?? Oh hang on its because of the great ones shoulder or could it be it was getting false neutrals while rossi was on it ....

What a joke you are...
 
gumby1 said:
Either you are a moron or... hang on youre just a moron..

Wtf... the bike is better than when casey rode because your 9 time lucky guy said it is. And he cant do .... on it !!! He is embarrassing himself and the very few fans he has left and he will continue to do so each time he throws his leg over it.

If casey rode it right now he would be over 1 second per lap faster than your 9 time champ on the alledged pos.

Then wtf would you say ?? Oh hang on its because of the great ones shoulder or could it be it was getting false neutrals while rossi was on it ....

What a joke you are...
Click to expand...





Holy .........I'll get my coat..................



Pete
 
RussF1 said:
Looking at it dispassionately, I do not think a win this year should be out of the question. The latter half of the season coincides with when Stoner went on a successful run last year and had a few good wins. So given a bit more improvement on the ducati between now and then, one could reasonably assume Rossi/Hayden should be at least fighting for a podium in Aragon, Sepang or more specifically in Phillip Island.



If you look at the absolute dominance of Stoner/Ducati at PI last year (even Hayden was competitive), you would have to think that with some more development between now and then, given the way the Ducati suits that track so well, Rossi & crew must have penciled that one in early in the year as a real opportunity to score a big result (ie, snag a win), and failing any further development steps, they should at least default to a real podium chance. Obviously Stoner suits the track quite well as well, so would probably stand between Rossi and a surprise win, all things being normal.



Given the way the season has gone thus far, they obviously would be reluctant to talk up their chances until they get there and confirm their performance, but I for one would think it's not unreasonable to be expecting big things from both ducati riders at that round.
Click to expand...





sure but can i just point out one factor for this to happen.. casey needs to be riding the duc because there isnt a hope in hell vale can win on it as the bike scares him and frankly he aint skilled enough to get the job done.

I could say its just my opinion but .... his results thus far on a much improved bike speak for themselves... but thanks for the laugh anyway..
 
Its only one season, the Duc is crap and not advanced in performance going on years now while Honda and Yam have advanced. end of story..bring on the 1000s.. i'll bet Rossi on some kind of Yamaha 2013
<
 
Football[sup]1[/sup] mentality. An expression used by Kropo recently in a somewhat different context, but when I read it I couldn't help but thinking of some of things I come across here. I don't mind when people celebrate the sport in that way, but I think one should be careful to have the same people dictate the rules of discourse. It's sad enough when people are so used themselves to be unable to talk about the rival 'team' without being derogatory in some way that they project this quality on everybody else that's not rooting for their home club.



Nomad made a simple comment about ducati development, I made a simple reply, neither post had any sort of negativity about any rider in it. They were just plain opinions about the development of of a motogp bike by two motogp enthusiasts. Nomads post was probably more from a rider perspective, I focused on the potential difficulties from the teams perspective.



Now I know that every time I say something about Ducati or Rossi there's a good chance some hooligans will come out doing their terrace chant. It doesn't bother me, there are thankfully usually also somewhat more mellow fans around who will enjoy a good discussion, whatever particular rider they support. (And of course there are also plenty of folks who might think I'm absolutely full of it, but have enough of a sense of humour to try and put me in my place like that.)



What does bother me is that when it suggested we let the hooligans run the show. Some people will always find a hidden slur at their favourite rider hidden in any post, because that is the way they operate themselves. But the irony is, it is often only when these people start crying foul, that an otherwise perfectly nice debate starts descending into yet another my-rider-versus-your-rider bashfest. And by going along with this framing of every debate in terms of "hating", we feed into the polarization, however noble our motives[sup]2[/sup].



It's a pity, because with a bit of common sense, respect and a good sense of humour it should not be too difficult to discuss motorcycle racing on a motorcycle racing forum.



[sup]1[/sup]Soccer for you New World types.

[sup]2 [/sup]I've took up this argument earlier in this threat already but I don't think anyone has picked up on it.
 
Keshav said:
Tru nuf. Tho - the first morning when we were all rubbing the sleep from our eyes in California, and heading towards Laguna I had my doubts with Clark. I was wearing my vintage Stoner T-shirt (the 2007 championship one with Stoner giving the #1 sign on one side and Rossi in the background looking dejected with his Fiat Yamaha leaned up against the retirement home). Clark glared at me like I'd offered to bone his sister. "There's one in every crowd" were his words and for the first day, he'd hardly ever talk to me. But by the time the weekend was finished - we were making plans to meet up in NYC. This forum should be fun, even for the ........
<
Click to expand...





Spot on Kesh. There's a few guys on here I call friends now, an canny wait tae meet them again. Bloosy hell, even me an Barry were bein nice to each other today!



Peace in our time



Pete
 
Levi, do u remember the little discussion we had in Arrabi's livingroom?
<
 
basspete said:
I keep saying it, if Ducati, Honda whoever try anything within the legalities of racing to win races then it's cool. It's in any manufacturers interests to build a bike that any top level racer can win races on. how many frames dis Honda use last year? A conservative estimte is 8. Fact, any manufacturer is going to try and build the best machine possible, whatever it takes.



The problem here is that a handfull of folks cannot accept that Valentino Rossi is the second most successful rider of all time. Fact. I don't see many people argueing that Stoner and Lorenzo are the fastest guys out there now either. Stoner has not, and will not equal Rossi's success however. Accept this please, it doesn't mean folk are saying he's ....., it doesn't mean that Rossi must have cheated, or that the previous competition was crap. It is a statement of fact. Rossi is the second most successful bike racer of all time. Casey Stoner has won one world championship, is well on his way to another, and is the most successfull racer of the 800 generation. Fact.



Most of the folks on here have the intelligence to spot a bit of banter, and can tell when a post is meant to be light hearted. Others see a post saying "Rossi is the second most successful bike racer ever" and read it as "Stoner is .....". Sorry thats your problem, not anyone elses. As has been pointed out on here plenty, Stoner doesn't appear to give a .... what folks think of him, so why the football fan mentality of his fans if a post doesn't say "Stoner is the greatest rider ever." That they accuse the author of being gay, a mindless bopper, and knowing nothing about motorcycle racing. Truth be told, in the real world, Rossi fans I know are some of the most knowledgeable folk I know on the subject of bike racing, and like myself and many others have followed it for years.



Anyone is entitled to thinking their rider is the greatest ever, but that is your opinion, not documented fact.



When a load of us met up at Silverstone, the craic was great, yep there were different opinions, but so ...., it was a bunch of us havin a great time, and at the end of the day, enjoying motorcycle racing. The only time we all were gutted was when Super Sic binned it. nobody bitched or skirted when Stoner won. We just enjoyed the racing. Apart from our American friends who appeared to be freezing to death!



Yes I ken I'm guilty of winding up Stoner fans, but hey, when I read the crap that is posted about Rossi and anyone else who isn't Stoner then I like to get back at them. As Jumkie says, if you take this too seriously, then thats your deal not mine.
Click to expand...



Fantastic post Pete.



However, i still hate penguins.
<
 
michaelm said:
I can actually see talpa's viewpoint on this one, particularly given the wall-to-wall anti-rossi stuff on many threads lately.



It is perhaps interesting to speculate philosophically as to whether ducati should stay radical or go more conventional, but ducati's demise in motogp would rather preclude the working out of that problem. I don't think that ducati or valentino have years to play around, so many would argue (reasonably imo) that developing a competitive bike by any means possible should be the priority.
Click to expand...

Forget Rossi for 2 seconds, last time I said 1 second but that was obviously not enough.

What is conventional in motogp? Is it a I4 bigbang, a V4 screamer, a V4 big bang, a seamless shift box? When a manufacturer comes up with something new and brilliant, they steal the lead for a while as the others catch up. 2004 Yamaha I4 is an example against a V5 which in theory could not be beaten. This is the name of the game, the whole game. Never has a copycat mentality been successful in motogp. By the time one copies, the other has already moved ahead again, then again, then again...........................



Who knows the future? Maybe in 2013 Bridgestone will be gone, and Michelin will return? Maybe the new Michelin's will suit a carbon frame bike more than any other, and Ducati and Bradl will win 3 w/c while the others are trying to catch up. If they want to try an alloy frame I see no problem but if the way forward is to be conventional and play follow the leader I cant see how Ducati can be any better than Suzuki has over the last 10 years?
 
basspete said:
I keep saying it, if Ducati, Honda whoever try anything within the legalities of racing to win races then it's cool. It's in any manufacturers interests to build a bike that any top level racer can win races on. how many frames dis Honda use last year? A conservative estimte is 8. Fact, any manufacturer is going to try and build the best machine possible, whatever it takes.



The problem here is that a handfull of folks cannot accept that Valentino Rossi is the second most successful rider of all time. Fact. I don't see many people argueing that Stoner and Lorenzo are the fastest guys out there now either. Stoner has not, and will not equal Rossi's success however. Accept this please, it doesn't mean folk are saying he's ....., it doesn't mean that Rossi must have cheated, or that the previous competition was crap. It is a statement of fact. Rossi is the second most successful bike racer of all time. Casey Stoner has won one world championship, is well on his way to another, and is the most successfull racer of the 800 generation. Fact.



Most of the folks on here have the intelligence to spot a bit of banter, and can tell when a post is meant to be light hearted. Others see a post saying "Rossi is the second most successful bike racer ever" and read it as "Stoner is .....". Sorry thats your problem, not anyone elses. As has been pointed out on here plenty, Stoner doesn't appear to give a .... what folks think of him, so why the football fan mentality of his fans if a post doesn't say "Stoner is the greatest rider ever." That they accuse the author of being gay, a mindless bopper, and knowing nothing about motorcycle racing. Truth be told, in the real world, Rossi fans I know are some of the most knowledgeable folk I know on the subject of bike racing, and like myself and many others have followed it for years.



Anyone is entitled to thinking their rider is the greatest ever, but that is your opinion, not documented fact.



When a load of us met up at Silverstone, the craic was great, yep there were different opinions, but so ...., it was a bunch of us havin a great time, and at the end of the day, enjoying motorcycle racing. The only time we all were gutted was when Super Sic binned it. nobody bitched or skirted when Stoner won. We just enjoyed the racing. Apart from our American friends who appeared to be freezing to death!



Yes I ken I'm guilty of winding up Stoner fans, but hey, when I read the crap that is posted about Rossi and anyone else who isn't Stoner then I like to get back at them. As Jumkie says, if you take this too seriously, then thats your deal not mine.
Click to expand...



+1



sept part highlighted
<




800cc Championships:



2 Stoner (if he wins it this year and if he dont id .... myself) 07/11

2 Rossi, 08/09
 
xx CURVE xx said:
Its only one season, the Duc is crap and not advanced in performance going on years now while Honda and Yam have advanced. end of story..bring on the 1000s.. i'll bet Rossi on some kind of Yamaha 2013
<
Click to expand...



Curve, you post one very succinct point in the above, and a point that is overlooked amongst it all in some way.



That being, it is only one year where the results at Ducati have been what could be said as 'disappointing' and really, in the larger scheme where the whole bloody formula changes next year who really cares as any money spent in 2011 is lost come 2012 with the vast differences of the bikes.



Yes, certainly Ducati tried a hybrid bike, but it has not shown a thing in positive terms for the 800cc but what is to say that come 2012 when the new formula hits that they again do not steal the march as they did in 2007.



People, it is only one year, no need for wrist slashing.











Gaz
 
birdman said:
Forget Rossi for 2 seconds, last time I said 1 second but that was obviously not enough.

What is conventional in motogp? Is it a I4 bigbang, a V4 screamer, a V4 big bang, a seamless shift box? When a manufacturer comes up with something new and brilliant, they steal the lead for a while as the others catch up. 2004 Yamaha I4 is an example against a V5 which in theory could not be beaten. This is the name of the game, the whole game. Never has a copycat mentality been successful in motogp. By the time one copies, the other has already moved ahead again, then again, then again...........................



Who knows the future? Maybe in 2013 Bridgestone will be gone, and Michelin will return? Maybe the new Michelin's will suit a carbon frame bike more than any other, and Ducati and Bradl will win 3 w/c while the others are trying to catch up. If they want to try an alloy frame I see no problem but if the way forward is to be conventional and play follow the leader I cant see how Ducati can be any better than Suzuki has over the last 10 years?
Click to expand...

I did say rossi and ducati.



I was a ducati fan before stoner was born, and also quite like them being different from the japanese marques.



My point was that they probably can't survive with the modern cost structure if it takes them several years to come up with a competitive bike, particularly with rossi riding so that deficiencies in their riders cannot be blamed. Marlboro pretty much forced them to ditch stoner after/during his travails in 2009, and he was finishing 4th or so before he missed the three races.



Recent indications from dorna are that they intend to address the cost issue, with the CRT formula being the first step; I even wonder if they have bought wsbk so that they have all avenues covered and can dictate terms to the manufacturers, possibly with some advice from the flamminis. As you and others have said, I agree that the new formula or changes in the tyres provided or the tyre provider might alter things. I doubt they will go back to a tyre war though, rightly or wrongly.
 
michaelm said:
I did say rossi and ducati.



I was a ducati fan before stoner was born, and also quite like them being different from the japanese marques.



My point was that they probably can't survive with the modern cost structure if it takes them several years to come up with a competitive bike, particularly with rossi riding so that deficiencies in their riders cannot be blamed. Marlboro pretty much forced them to ditch stoner after/during his travails in 2009, and he was finishing 4th or so before he missed the three races. Recent indications from dorna are that they intend to address the cost issue, with the CRT formula being the first step; I even wonder if they have bought wsbk so that they have all avenues covered and can dictate terms to the manufacturers, possibly with some advice from the flamminis.



As you and others have said, I agree that the new formula or changes in the tyres provided or the tyre provider might alter things. I doubt they will go back to a tyre war though, rightly or wrongly.
Click to expand...

Ok Rossi and Ducati. I think in the end what works for Rossi will work for all the other Ducati riders anyway.

A fan before Stoner was born? You got me there!

Buying wsbk so that they have all avenues covered and can dictate terms to the manufacturers - thats a good point. I was surprised watching SBK when Craig Martin described the forks and shock they run as motogp spec. Me thinks SBK has gone too far towards motogp if thats the case. Pull SBK back a bit to production to give room for motogp to slow down development and reduce cost. Sounds good to me.
 

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