Last hope for Valentino...2012

xx CURVE xx said:

come talk to me when your boy wins 5 more championships

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Maybe you should change your signature to something like " Ignore him at your peril......or when he's doing ...... "

xx CURVE xx said:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjy_7haflaM&feature=player_detailpage[/media]

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There is something clearly wrong with the Ducati because everyone reports exactly the same thing; no front end feel. Rossi and JB, especially JB, have won so many championships that they know exactly what makes a good bike. Ducati clearly don't because they haven't been able to sort it out for a few years now so they should listen to Rossi and especially JB as he clearly knows more.

nomad said:

There is something clearly wrong with the Ducati because everyone reports exactly the same thing; no front end feel. Rossi and JB, especially JB, have won so many championships that they know exactly what makes a good bike. Ducati clearly don't because they haven't been able to sort it out for a few years now so they should listen to Rossi and especially JB as he clearly knows more.

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It's a tough dilemma. Going the Rossi/JB direction means conforming to the other manufacturers and hopefully taking incremental steps towards competitiveness. That's the evolutionary approach, and it has produced at least two good bikes for the current season (the m1 and the rcv212). Going the Preziosi/Ducati direction means going radical in the hope of taking the competition by surprise and creating a possibly huge competitive advantage. That's the revolutionary approach, and it has produced a hit-and-miss motorcycle.



The problem is, and I think both Stoner and Hayden have hinted at this recently, that when Ducati sticks with the radical approach, they may be able to have an absolute weapon, because the thing does have huge amounts of not yet unlocked potential. If they follow Rossi/JB, they will be throwing that opportunity away in exchange for a bike that will at be easier, but at best equal to the M1 and RCV and at worst always a step behind.



Now, Rossi is a good rider, might be able to take such a GP.M1.RCV to the pointy end even if it is a little behind the others. But where does that leave Ducati? At the mercy of Rossi, with a bike that no longer speaks to the imagination and is damned to mediocrity once Rossi leaves.

stiefel said:

It's a tough dilemma. Going the Rossi/JB direction means conforming to the other manufacturers and hopefully taking incremental steps towards competitiveness. That's the evolutionary approach, and it has produced at least two good bikes for the current season (the m1 and the rcv212). Going the Preziosi/Ducati direction means going radical in the hope of taking the competition by surprise and creating a possibly huge competitive advantage. That's the revolutionary approach, and it has produced a hit-and-miss motorcycle.



The problem is, and I think both Stoner and Hayden have hinted at this recently, that when Ducati sticks with the radical approach, they may be able to have an absolute weapon, because the thing does have huge amounts of not yet unlocked potential. If they follow Rossi/JB, they will be throwing that opportunity away in exchange for a bike that will at be easier, but at best equal to the M1 and RCV and at worst always a step behind.



Now, Rossi is a good rider, might be able to take such a GP.M1.RCV to the pointy end even if it is a little behind the others. But where does that leave Ducati? At the mercy of Rossi, with a bike that no longer speaks to the imagination and is damned to mediocrity once Rossi leaves.

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Top post and completely agree.

stiefel said:

It's a tough dilemma. Going the Rossi/JB direction means conforming to the other manufacturers and hopefully taking incremental steps towards competitiveness. That's the evolutionary approach, and it has produced at least two good bikes for the current season (the m1 and the rcv212). Going the Preziosi/Ducati direction means going radical in the hope of taking the competition by surprise and creating a possibly huge competitive advantage. That's the revolutionary approach, and it has produced a hit-and-miss motorcycle.



The problem is, and I think both Stoner and Hayden have hinted at this recently, that when Ducati sticks with the radical approach, they may be able to have an absolute weapon, because the thing does have huge amounts of not yet unlocked potential. If they follow Rossi/JB, they will be throwing that opportunity away in exchange for a bike that will at be easier, but at best equal to the M1 and RCV and at worst always a step behind.



Now, Rossi is a good rider, might be able to take such a GP.M1.RCV to the pointy end even if it is a little behind the others. But where does that leave Ducati? At the mercy of Rossi, with a bike that no longer speaks to the imagination and is damned to mediocrity once Rossi leaves.

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Right so the M1 has been damned to mediocrity......what a load of absolute .............the M1 has one 'FIVE' world titles since Rossi and JB went to Yamaha, and more than 'ONE' rider has had great success on it.....how can you consider this to be Mediocrity? How much can you really dislike this guy? I mean Really this is psychopathic Hatred.



The M1 featured a radical engine firing order and a very radical cross-plane crankshaft which has led to extraordinary success in both WSBK and Motogp.....so much so that another manufacture known for its radical concepts copied this tech and has been racing with this type engine for the last 2 seasons......Rossi's M1 has also always been known for it's radical feeling Front end, Spies has highlight this recently.....hardly conforming at all. If anything Ducati have conformed well before Rossi and JB even got there....why not stay with their 'Screamer'....



The problem with Radical approaches is the absurd testing restrictions, the 6 engine limit restrictions, the 21 fuel limit, and the 2 tyre compound choices from one rubber maker....have all made it impossible to compete without conforming to the Japanese...who of course are making the rules.





some figures for you



since 2004...the M1's supposed mediocrity.....



Motogp World titles 5

Motogp Race wins 63

Motogp Podiums 137



The facts suggest this is far from mediocre....now up to this point Ducati have failed miserably with every other top class rider bar Stoner in the 800cc era. Most sane people uninfluenced by extreme bias would consider this to be very mediocre.

Talpa. You are one creepy dude.

Talpa said:

Right so the M1 has been damned to mediocrity......what a load of absolute .............the M1 has one 'FIVE' world titles since Rossi and JB went to Yamaha, and more than 'ONE' rider has had great success on it.....how can you consider this to be Mediocrity? How much can you really dislike this guy? I mean Really this is psychopathic Hatred.



The M1 featured a radical engine firing order and a very radical cross-plane crankshaft which has led to extraordinary success in both WSBK and Motogp.....so much so that another manufacture known for its radical concepts copied this tech and has been racing with this type engine for the last 2 seasons......Rossi's M1 has also always been known for it's radical feeling Front end, Spies has highlight this recently.....hardly conforming at all. If anything Ducati have conformed well before Rossi and JB even got there....why not stay with their 'Screamer'....



The problem with Radical approaches is the absurd testing restrictions, the 6 engine limit restrictions, the 21 fuel limit, and the 2 tyre compound choices from one rubber maker....have all made it impossible to compete without conforming to the Japanese...who of course are making the rules.





some figures for you



since 2004...the M1's supposed mediocrity.....



Motogp World titles 5

Motogp Race wins 63

Motogp Podiums 137



The facts suggest this is far from mediocre....now up to this point Ducati have failed miserably with every other top class rider bar Stoner in the 800cc era. Most sane people uninfluenced by extreme bias would consider this to be very mediocre.

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You are an ...... He was talking about the Ducati not the M1. Bloody hell you are quick to go off on a rant with out actually reading the post. No wonder you are so biased. ......



Ducati can't make an M1 or an RCV to beat the original incarnations of these bikes but perhaps get close enough for Rossi to put it on the podium. But when Rossi leaves and a lesser rider gets on the Japanese version of the Ducati the rider will not be able to make up the difference as Rossi did relegating ducati to mediocre instead of being radical and winning every now and then.



Read the ....... post you ......

Mental Anarchist said:

You are an ...... He was talking about the Ducati not the M1. Bloody hell you are quick to go off on a rant with out actually reading the post. No wonder you are so biased. ......



Ducati can't make an M1 or an RCV to beat the original incarnations of these bikes but perhaps get close enough for Rossi to put it on the podium. But when Rossi leaves and a lesser rider gets on the Japanese version of the Ducati the rider will not be able to make up the difference as Rossi did relegating ducati to mediocre instead of being radical and winning every now and then.



Read the ....... post you ......

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But Rossi has 9 chamoinships.

Mental Anarchist said:

You are an ...... He was talking about the Ducati not the M1. Bloody hell you are quick to go off on a rant with out actually reading the post. No wonder you are so biased. ......



Ducati can't make an M1 or an RCV to beat the original incarnations of these bikes but perhaps get close enough for Rossi to put it on the podium. But when Rossi leaves and a lesser rider gets on the Japanese version of the Ducati the rider will not be able to make up the difference as Rossi did relegating ducati to mediocre instead of being radical and winning every now and then.



Read the ....... post you ......

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Talpas comprehension skills are non-existant. He reads text but his brain lacks the ability to process the information within.....you might as well just keep things as simple as possible such as in the highlighted bits. He may be able to comprehend those parts.....then again I may be giving hime more credit than he deserves

Mental Anarchist said:

You are an ...... He was talking about the Ducati not the M1. Bloody hell you are quick to go off on a rant with out actually reading the post. No wonder you are so biased. ......



Ducati can't make an M1 or an RCV to beat the original incarnations of these bikes but perhaps get close enough for Rossi to put it on the podium. But when Rossi leaves and a lesser rider gets on the Japanese version of the Ducati the rider will not be able to make up the difference as Rossi did relegating ducati to mediocre instead of being radical and winning every now and then.



Read the ....... post you ......

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I read the post........it clearly stated that Rossis philosophy of development would leave Ducati with a bike that no longer speaks to the imagination and would be mediocre and therefore uncompetitive in the hands of anyone else (funny that sounds like a particular bike in Motogp at the moment).....every time Rossi has left a manufacture, the bikes have been not even close to mediocre, more like very dominant and imaginative. And every bike that Rossi have left has been clearly competitive in others hands, unlike what the Ducati is.....my point other have been very successful on bikes that Rossi has left. so this theory is Rubbish and more of the same old Hater/boner speak



Comprehend yet little boy?? I know you can't but anyway.....



You lot of Boners just love to pull apart even a perceived direction that they may go in to be competitive and rubbish it, because you hate Rossi, and Bone Stoner, everything you have ever posted on here reflects it....keep up the argumentum ad hominem, it suits your Mentality.....

Talpa said:

I read the post........it clearly stated that Rossis philosophy of development would leave Ducati with a bike that no longer speaks to the imagination and would be mediocre and therefore uncompetitive in the hands of anyone else (funny that sounds like a particular bike in Motogp at the moment).....every time Rossi has left a manufacture, the bikes have been not even close to mediocre, more like very dominant and imaginative. And every bike that Rossi have left has been clearly competitive in others hands, unlike what the Ducati is.....my point other have been very successful on bikes that Rossi has left. so this theory is Rubbish and more of the same old Hater/boner speak



Comprehend yet little boy?? I know you can't but anyway.....



You lot of Boners just love to pull apart even a perceived direction that they may go in to be competitive and rubbish it, because you hate Rossi, and Bone Stoner, everything you have ever posted on here reflects it....keep up the argumentum ad hominem, it suits your Mentality.....

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I understood you talps, I think you were making a pretty simple point.

Talpa said:

I read the post........it clearly stated that Rossis philosophy of development would leave Ducati with a bike that no longer speaks to the imagination and would be mediocre and therefore uncompetitive in the hands of anyone else (funny that sounds like a particular bike in Motogp at the moment).....every time Rossi has left a manufacture, the bikes have been not even close to mediocre, more like very dominant and imaginative. And every bike that Rossi have left has been clearly competitive in others hands, unlike what the Ducati is.....my point other have been very successful on bikes that Rossi has left. so this theory is Rubbish and more of the same old Hater/boner speak



Comprehend yet little boy?? I know you can't but anyway.....



You lot of Boners just love to pull apart even a perceived direction that they may go in to be competitive and rubbish it, because you hate Rossi, and Bone Stoner, everything you have ever posted on here reflects it....keep up the argumentum ad hominem, it suits your Mentality.....

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Ok, if that is the case the original post was indicating that Ducati could not beat the Japs at their own game which is the game Rossi played and successfully provided feedback for. Providing feedback to the Japs who have been building these bies and evolving them for decades is one thing and Rossi did it successfully.



I am sure that he can do it successfully for Ducati as well but can Ducati successfully mimic the decades and evolutionary path that the Japs have under their belt in one go or even 2 years?



The original post indicated they could get close and ROSSI riding the bike could bridge the gap due to his talent. What happens when Ducati no longer has this talent and they are still way behind on the evolutionary path?????



You see the post was giving Rossi a wrap not dissing him.



Your still a bloody ..... but nothing is new there. Your "everybody hates Rossi" war cry is so ....... lame....you sound like his mum.

Talpa said:

I read the post........it clearly stated that Rossis philosophy of development would leave Ducati with a bike that no longer speaks to the imagination and would be mediocre and therefore uncompetitive in the hands of anyone else (funny that sounds like a particular bike in Motogp at the moment).....every time Rossi has left a manufacture, the bikes have been not even close to mediocre, more like very dominant and imaginative. And every bike that Rossi have left has been clearly competitive in others hands, unlike what the Ducati is.....my point other have been very successful on bikes that Rossi has left. so this theory is Rubbish and more of the same old Hater/boner speak



Comprehend yet little boy?? I know you can't but anyway.....



You lot of Boners just love to pull apart even a perceived direction that they may go in to be competitive and rubbish it, because you hate Rossi, and Bone Stoner, everything you have ever posted on here reflects it....keep up the argumentum ad hominem, it suits your Mentality.....

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Why do you give them the respect of arguing?

Stiefel's post was sound. Take the friggin riders (Rossi) out of the picture just for a second because emotions are overpowering logic.



Honda was much maligned for the single crank design 500. They kept this but modified it enough via big bang technology to make it work. It took them 5 years, from 89 when Lawson last won to 94 when Doohan next won. It possibly could have taken 3 years but for Doohans accident in 92.



Its taken Honda over 4 years again to win consistently with the 800cc, but still they dont have the w/c. The original idea this time is the gearbox.



Yamaha did do very well to turn around the M1 in 2004. But was it a one year development cycle or a three year? And they stuck with the I4 when conventional wisdom said cant beat a V5.



Ducati won in 07 when the screamer was thought dead.



So no one has really won a W/C via copycat. Its all original concepts and built upon over time.

birdman said:

Stiefel's post was sound. Take the friggin riders (Rossi) out of the picture just for a second because emotions are overpowering logic.



Honda was much maligned for the single crank design 500. They kept this but modified it enough via bing bang technology to make it work. It took them 5 years, from 89 when Lawson last won to 94 when Doohan next won. It possibly could have taken 3 years but for Doohans accident in 92.



Its taken Honda over 4 years again to win consistently with the 800cc, but still they dont have the w/c. The original idea this time is the gearbox.



Yamaha did do very well to turn around the M1 in 2004. But was it a one year development cycle or a three year? And they stuck with the I4 when conventional wisdom said cant beat a V5.



Ducati won in 07 when the screamer was thought dead.



So no one has really won a W/C via copycat. Its all original concepts and built upon over time.

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I can actually see talpa's viewpoint on this one, particularly given the wall-to-wall anti-rossi stuff on many threads lately.



It is perhaps interesting to speculate philosophically as to whether ducati should stay radical or go more conventional, but ducati's demise in motogp would rather preclude the working out of that problem. I don't think that ducati or valentino have years to play around, so many would argue (reasonably imo) that developing a competitive bike by any means possible should be the priority.

woody996 said:

Why do you give them the respect of arguing?

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I know, I know, it seems ........ to argue with.... well, ........ I guess I'm just continually amazed at the levels they'll stoop too.....scary world

Mental Anarchist said:

Ok, if that is the case the original post was indicating that Ducati could not beat the Japs at their own game which is the game Rossi played and successfully provided feedback for. Providing feedback to the Japs who have been building these bies and evolving them for decades is one thing and Rossi did it successfully.



I am sure that he can do it successfully for Ducati as well but can Ducati successfully mimic the decades and evolutionary path that the Japs have under their belt in one go or even 2 years?



The original post indicated they could get close and ROSSI riding the bike could bridge the gap due to his talent. What happens when Ducati no longer has this talent and they are still way behind on the evolutionary path?????



You see the post was giving Rossi a wrap not dissing him.



Your still a bloody ..... but nothing is new there. Your "everybody hates Rossi" war cry is so ....... lame....you sound like his mum.

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.....

I keep saying it, if Ducati, Honda whoever try anything within the legalities of racing to win races then it's cool. It's in any manufacturers interests to build a bike that any top level racer can win races on. how many frames dis Honda use last year? A conservative estimte is 8. Fact, any manufacturer is going to try and build the best machine possible, whatever it takes.



The problem here is that a handfull of folks cannot accept that Valentino Rossi is the second most successful rider of all time. Fact. I don't see many people argueing that Stoner and Lorenzo are the fastest guys out there now either. Stoner has not, and will not equal Rossi's success however. Accept this please, it doesn't mean folk are saying he's ....., it doesn't mean that Rossi must have cheated, or that the previous competition was crap. It is a statement of fact. Rossi is the second most successful bike racer of all time. Casey Stoner has won one world championship, is well on his way to another, and is the most successfull racer of the 800 generation. Fact.



Most of the folks on here have the intelligence to spot a bit of banter, and can tell when a post is meant to be light hearted. Others see a post saying "Rossi is the second most successful bike racer ever" and read it as "Stoner is .....". Sorry thats your problem, not anyone elses. As has been pointed out on here plenty, Stoner doesn't appear to give a .... what folks think of him, so why the football fan mentality of his fans if a post doesn't say "Stoner is the greatest rider ever." That they accuse the author of being gay, a mindless bopper, and knowing nothing about motorcycle racing. Truth be told, in the real world, Rossi fans I know are some of the most knowledgeable folk I know on the subject of bike racing, and like myself and many others have followed it for years.



Anyone is entitled to thinking their rider is the greatest ever, but that is your opinion, not documented fact.



When a load of us met up at Silverstone, the craic was great, yep there were different opinions, but so ...., it was a bunch of us havin a great time, and at the end of the day, enjoying motorcycle racing. The only time we all were gutted was when Super Sic binned it. nobody bitched or skirted when Stoner won. We just enjoyed the racing. Apart from our American friends who appeared to be freezing to death!



Yes I ken I'm guilty of winding up Stoner fans, but hey, when I read the crap that is posted about Rossi and anyone else who isn't Stoner then I like to get back at them. As Jumkie says, if you take this too seriously, then thats your deal not mine.