Laguna Seca - Race discussion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 25 2008, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The track probably had something to do with it, as did him having a setup that could keep up with Stoner for most of the circuit but didn't give him the pace to pull any sort of significant gap. He didn't have the pace to pull away, but Stoner possibly did if given the chance to lead for a lap or 2. On a track that's tough to pass on, that probably made him push a fair bit harder to make passes when at all possible and get in front to keep Stoner from pulling a gap.
That's how i see it too,Rossi said after the race he had to be in front of him otherwise he could pull away.
As a fan of Stoner rather than Rossi I'm of kind of disapointed at Stoner for the comments after the race.On the other hand i didn't see every lap because of the comercial breaks and the comentator who actually watched it all said"during the brake there had been some really( harsh?)(don't know the word in English)defending on Rossi's part.On the verge of what is alowed".I would have liked to see that.This was after the corkscrew-gravel-part-drama.
Anyway,that race is over and Stoner will win again i'm sure.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Jul 26 2008, 03:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's how i see it too,Rossi said after the race he had to be in front of him otherwise he could pull away.
As a fan of Stoner rather than Rossi I'm of kind of disapointed at Stoner for the comments after the race.On the other hand i didn't see every lap because of the comercial breaks and the comentator who actually watched it all said"during the brake there had been some really( harsh?)(don't know the word in English)defending on Rossi's part.On the verge of what is alowed".I would have liked to see that.This was after the corkscrew-gravel-part-drama.
Anyway,that race is over and Stoner will win again i'm sure.

If I remember correctly that must have been on the lap Stoner crashed or the lap before in turn 3/4 where stoner passed Rossi on the inside and Rossi retook the lead by an outside pass at turn 4. As Hoppkins said, that's ballsy but hardly harsh. Passing on the outside is at you own risk, you could be pushed out on the gravel and no one could blame the other really.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 25 2008, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, what do YOU want to call it, paint swaping or what ever, who the .... cares. The likes of Capirossi enjoys a close fight with Rossi, Stoner doesn't. That was my point. You said no one else would take the fight with Rossi and that's still .........
Touching happens in the heat of the moment, true, but it sure is intentional from time to time, nothing psycotic in that, at least not where I come from. Sure, it depends on the situation and not at 120 mph but it sure happens and some enjoy it even as the reciver. So where ever you come from maybe it's about time to stop reading those interviews and watch what happens out there right now, or even do it your self.
And I have problems to see why you bring the paint swapping in at all. The only one touching anyone where stoner as he went on the outside of Rossi.

Re: Paint Swapping: I was quoting you. When you bang fairings you're not making a clean pass, which means you are not in control, as in riding over your head, as in not using sound judgement and inviting unessasary danger. As far as those able to seriously compete with Rossi (and I'm not his fan club by any stretch) no one has really done it convincingly the last season and a half except Stoner. Before that is all ancient history. As far as racers allegedly taking pleasure in having another rider bang into them during a race, that's just fanboy fables. Only a masochist would <u>enjoy</u> it. Again . . . in the rosy afterglow, weeks after a race, when the story is being re-told, racers will tell the story colorfully, talking about how they and a competitor banged fairings. It's what guys do. But in the actual moment, it's very unnerving and throws you off your rhythm - which no sane racer appreciates. When I used to race - there always were macho ........ who would pull the cowboy ...., like reaching over in the middle of a turn and hitting the other guy's kill switch, and they thought this was funny. But ........ like that - never amount to ..... They may be a legend in their own mind - but they never rise above the level of frat boy club racer. The guys who reach GP level have to be much more professional when racing. There is too much sponsor funding involved. Money changes everything.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 26 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If I remember correctly that must have been on the lap Stoner crashed or the lap before in turn 3/4 where stoner passed Rossi on the inside and Rossi retook the lead by an outside pass at turn 4. As Hoppkins said, that's ballsy but hardly harsh. Passing on the outside is at you own risk, you could be pushed out on the gravel and no one could blame the other really.
I'm not 100% what lap/laps it was but judgeing by the comentators earlier comments on tight fights it probarbly was kind of harsh,i would have liked to see it anyway.As a reference ,he don't see any of the overtaking Rossi did on Sete as too harsh/rough.

i cannot see what casey moaner is on about about the HARD passes.... ok then maybe he was a little too young when JB commented that casey should of been around during schwarntz, rainey, doohan era but he should look at the battles vale had with gibbers, biaggi etc we had hard passes all the time during that period. nobody complained as much as casey (well gibbers did when he was pushed on the side in jerez in that GP which was a little too hard by vale)

Paint swapping is fine for Rossi and his blind fans, so long as HE comes out ahead.

Anyone remember this:



and Rossi's blubbering thereafter?

"I'm also quite unhappy with Elias today because I think he was quite dangerous - more than once he passed me on the inside and then altered his line. This is not a correct way to race." - V.R.


Rossi's ego is injured!

Quick, somebody call




FWIW, I don't think Casey's minor ..... session was any worse. If anything, he had more to complain about. Rossi's corkscrew lunge was great racing, but came pretty damn close to taking one or both riders out. Elias' pass on Valle was pretty standard stuff.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mstar @ Jul 26 2008, 12:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i cannot see what casey moaner is on about about the HARD passes.... ok then maybe he was a little too young when JB commented that casey should of been around during schwarntz, rainey, doohan era but he should look at the battles vale had with gibbers, biaggi etc we had hard passes all the time during that period. nobody complained as much as casey (well gibbers did when he was pushed on the side in jerez in that GP which was a little too hard by vale)

you can't see what casey is moaning about because you've never raced. its that simple. i can tell you when another rider almost takes me out on the track, the first place i'm headed after the race is his pit.


the thing that makes these guys different is they have a camera shoved in their face all the damn time. if camera crews were at wera events you guys wouldn't know wtf to do with yourselves.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jul 26 2008, 05:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>you can't see what casey is moaning about because you've never raced. its that simple. i can tell you when another rider almost takes me out on the track, the first place i'm headed after the race is his pit.

Well i suppose your another ..... who cannot take faster riders who pass you and then when they pass you you take a mental note and think what am i going to do after the race -great way to race that get angry barge through pit garages etc very professional (oh thats probably why ur not a professional i forgot)

DJM for your information i hav raced motobikes and i am a regular GP visitor i watch since 1993 at least 6 GPs a season so please get your facts right u ......

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Geonerd @ Jul 26 2008, 05:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Paint swapping is fine for Rossi and his blind fans, so long as HE comes out ahead.

Anyone remember this:



and Rossi's blubbering thereafter?

"I'm also quite unhappy with Elias today because I think he was quite dangerous - more than once he passed me on the inside and then altered his line. This is not a correct way to race." - V.R.


Rossi's ego is injured!

Quick, somebody call




FWIW, I don't think Casey's minor ..... session was any worse. If anything, he had more to complain about. Rossi's corkscrew lunge was great racing, but came pretty damn close to taking one or both riders out. Elias' pass on Valle was pretty standard stuff.

Great post

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mstar @ Jul 26 2008, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well i suppose your another ..... who cannot take faster riders who pass you and then when they pass you you take a mental note and think what am i going to do after the race -great way to race that get angry barge through pit garages etc very professional (oh thats probably why ur not a professional i forgot)

DJM for your information i hav raced motobikes and i am a regular GP visitor i watch since 1993 at least 6 GPs a season so please get your facts right u ......


got to ya huh?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Geonerd @ Jul 26 2008, 05:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Paint swapping is fine for Rossi and his blind fans, so long as HE comes out ahead.

Anyone remember this:



and Rossi's blubbering thereafter?

"I'm also quite unhappy with Elias today because I think he was quite dangerous - more than once he passed me on the inside and then altered his line. This is not a correct way to race." - V.R.

Altering your line if you are offtrack is the only exception..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (an4rew @ Jul 26 2008, 07:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Altering your line if you are offtrack is the only exception..
it is so funny that it is a one way thing for VR fans. Most of them just don't care what he says just that he wins. .... if he told you to drink the poison infested kool aid I am sure most would do it without question.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Geonerd @ Jul 26 2008, 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Paint swapping is fine for Rossi and his blind fans, so long as HE comes out ahead.

Anyone remember this:



and Rossi's blubbering thereafter?

"I'm also quite unhappy with Elias today because I think he was quite dangerous - more than once he passed me on the inside and then altered his line. This is not a correct way to race." - V.R.
...........................
FWIW, I don't think Casey's minor ..... session was any worse. If anything, he had more to complain about. Rossi's corkscrew lunge was great racing, but came pretty damn close to taking one or both riders out. Elias' pass on Valle was pretty standard stuff.

---
I have to say I tend to dismiss Stoner's complains as mind games, and wasn't going to comment on this subject...

But what you say here got my attention. You say you do not see anything wrong in the picture of that pass by Elias (not much to see in that one frame, I agree) or you actually saw and remember the entire sequence and concluded there was nothing wrong?

Hhmmmm, sorry to have to contradict you in that case. Elias changed his line when he was ALREADY on the inside of Rossi, going for a slightly wider course--which is maybe a not-so-apparent maneuver but surely a most malicious one, because the rider who is being passed is pushed out and can't do anything whatsoever... If pushed enough, one would surely crash.

In this case I think Elias just wanted to 'scare' Rossi, he didn't have any real intention to force a crash. He was just being nasty, but in an unnecessary way because he was already inside and successfully passing--he didn't need to be nasty to get in front of Rossi. This unnecessary maneuver is what Rossi complained about.

I know very well Rossi is an aggressive rider and he can fight hard to achieve a pass in the most improbable circumstances, but I have never seen him being nasty for the sake of it. And I honestly do not remember Rossi complaining just because he was squarely overtaken on the track.

In Estoril for example, after Lorenzo had passed him in a quite assertive and daring way, Rossi simply slapped him on the ... laughing, when they reached the parc ferme.

[quote name='Geonerd' date='Jul 26 2008, 01:40 PM' post='142124']
Paint swapping is fine for Rossi and his blind fans, so long as HE comes out ahead.

Anyone remember this:



and Rossi's blubbering thereafter?

"I'm also quite unhappy with Elias today because I think he was quite dangerous - more than once he passed me on the inside and then altered his line. This is not a correct way to race." - V.R.


Rossi's ego is injured!

Quick, somebody call


A thousand times Effendi - I thank you for this!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Jul 26 2008, 08:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>it is so funny that it is a one way thing for VR fans. Most of them just don't care what he says just that he wins. .... if he told you to drink the poison infested kool aid I am sure most would do it without question.

His button has been pressed again..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Jul 20 2008, 11:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>....... hell Casey - why did you have to come out and say that? Just giving you're detractors all the ammo they want. The race was hard but fair. What did you think it was - play school?
im just going to ignore his whining/comment's and just put it down to coming down from a big adrenalin buzz and disappointment in loosing. but as i said while sober i might add i have massive respect for him as a racer after this race. i cant believe i was lucky enough to see it with my own eyes. i met stoner too but thats another story.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Jul 26 2008, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Re: Paint Swapping: I was quoting you. When you bang fairings you're not making a clean pass, which means you are not in control, as in riding over your head, as in not using sound judgement and inviting unessasary danger. As far as those able to seriously compete with Rossi (and I'm not his fan club by any stretch) no one has really done it convincingly the last season and a half except Stoner. Before that is all ancient history. As far as racers allegedly taking pleasure in having another rider bang into them during a race, that's just fanboy fables. Only a masochist would <u>enjoy</u> it. Again . . . in the rosy afterglow, weeks after a race, when the story is being re-told, racers will tell the story colorfully, talking about how they and a competitor banged fairings. It's what guys do. But in the actual moment, it's very unnerving and throws you off your rhythm - which no sane racer appreciates. When I used to race - there always were macho ........ who would pull the cowboy ...., like reaching over in the middle of a turn and hitting the other guy's kill switch, and they thought this was funny. But ........ like that - never amount to ..... They may be a legend in their own mind - but they never rise above the level of frat boy club racer. The guys who reach GP level have to be much more professional when racing. There is too much sponsor funding involved. Money changes everything.

You really are a piece of work.
You can create your own definition of what paint swapping are but you definatly have no idea of what goes on in racing in Europe. I’ve been around a bit here from everyting from national series, multi national series racing and european series and WSS as team memeber at a few times. There is nothing in my experiences that indicate any similarity to your aincient expereinces.
BSB are well known for lots of contact but that’s only because the sereis is better known. IDM in germany and other national series and EC are just as tough and the riders learn to cope with it. Doesn’t matter if they like it or not but it helps of course if you enjoy it. I notice you continously create your own definition of what paint swapping is. It doesn't have to be banging into each other. More often it is two riders wanting the same space and they clinch into each other. Nobody wants to yeield and the resault is contact.
Nice trick defineing anything outside this years as redundant history as long as we talk about current racers on the grid but it doesn't give any more validity to your argument. Some racers out there enjoy a close fight, with or without contact, stoner doesn't. And that's what confuse me here because he was the only one to initiate the one contact that happened out there.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Jul 26 2008, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>---
I have to say I tend to dismiss Stoner's complains as mind games, and wasn't going to comment on this subject...

But what you say here got my attention. You say you do not see anything wrong in the picture of that pass by Elias (not much to see in that one frame, I agree) or you actually saw and remember the entire sequence and concluded there was nothing wrong?


I just watched the video, several times. That's where the screen shot came from.
My eyes saw Tony pull a Mad Bomber pass which put both riders long and wide. On top of that, it appears (hard to tell from the camera angle) that Tony stayed wide for a second or so before tightening his line and aiming for the next corner. I don't see anything thats close to being unsafe or unusual. Neither rider was out of control, and the contact between them was pretty mild, even if it may have added a few feet to Rossi's braking distance. I'll put the paint-swapping down to fair and proper "This is racing."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Hhmmmm, sorry to have to contradict you in that case. Elias changed his line when he was ALREADY on the inside of Rossi, going for a slightly wider course--which is maybe a not-so-apparent maneuver but surely a most malicious one, because the rider who is being passed is pushed out and can't do anything whatsoever... If pushed enough, one would surely crash.

MALICIOUS? You've got to be kidding.
TE's pass was nothing more than a toned down block pass. (Zoom up the inside, take the preferred line away from your opponent, and force him to either back off or run out of track.) In this case, TE does seem to hang Valentino out for a second or so, but he's not even close to pushing VR up against a wall or onto the gravel. All he did is hold him off the racing line. Rossi, in full race mode and probably pissed off at being passed by his 'favorite' rider, refused to yield or slow, then tried to ride the outside line through the marbles at normal speed, nearly crashing in the attempt. His mistake.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>In this case I think Elias just wanted to 'scare' Rossi, he didn't have any real intention to force a crash. He was just being nasty, but in an unnecessary way because he was already inside and successfully passing--he didn't need to be nasty to get in front of Rossi. This unnecessary maneuver is what Rossi complained about.

Sorry, I don't see 'nasty.' Given the two slow corners that immediately follow T12, it probably made a great deal of race sense to push Rossi out a little further, so as to screw up his line into the critical final corner (which leads onto the S/F straight.) It was Rossi's stubborn mistake, not Tony's riding, that cost him gobs of time and nearly put him on his butt.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I know very well Rossi is an aggressive rider and he can fight hard to achieve a pass in the most improbable circumstances, but I have never seen him being nasty for the sake of it. And I honestly do not remember Rossi complaining just because he was squarely overtaken on the track.

In Estoril for example, after Lorenzo had passed him in a quite assertive and daring way, Rossi simply slapped him on the ... laughing, when they reached the parc ferme.

Valle doesn't seem to mind losing a close fight at all - he usually enjoys the buzz of a good race. That's one of his great strengths. Turkey was a little different - he subsequently suffered tire issues and finished 9th or so. A huge disappointment in his eyes. (and probably not too far from what Casey felt last week) This thread has made a lot of Casey's Parc Ferme statements, with many calling him a ....../whiner/baby/etc., while implying that Rossi would never complain if someone gave back as hard as he gives. (And Rossi has, on many occasions, given MUCH harder than what Tony did in Turkey) I just wanted to remind the "Rossiboppers" (to borrow the phrase) that their hero is also human and can throw his toys just as far as anyone else when he gets cranky.

-Moo!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 27 2008, 06:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i met stoner too but thats another story.


So what's the story behind that then?


Oh and I would have thought security would have kept you, who wanted to bop him one, a minimum of 5 miles from Stoner at all times .......

Doohan plays down Rossi/Stoner row

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2008/Doohan+...ossi+Stoner+row