Laguna Seca Practice and Qualifying Discussion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Jul 19 2008, 09:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>or, they could just slow the superbike class down....and maintain the aura of "prestige".






Truly laughed my freckle off when I read that.

On a serious note - they DID slow it down. They are using a control tyre and so many standard features that you and I could (with no more than $100K) build a SBK.

Motogp needs to find its answers on the track and not in whinging girl support groups, Christ, what are you all now, victims of discrimination or harassment or something?

To quote Mark "Chopper" Reid "Harden the .... up"

Last year it was the tires,this year its the electroniics.Will the hord be succesful in forcing Dorna to a spec ecu.The year after that it will be the suspension.Maybe Rossi can force the powers that be to force Stoner back to Michelins or just have him banned outright for the good of the sport.Translation:So Rossi and his fans wont feel bored.I never thought i would say this about Moto Gp fans but you are no better than NASCAR fans,or should i say Dale Jr fans.Kyle Busch is Casey Stoner and Rossi is Jr.Let someone beat the chosen one and the accusations start flying.They have more hp,their cheating,they have better tires,they have better electronics.Sound familiar,go to a Nascar board and just sustitute names and its the same old .........

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jul 19 2008, 11:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Last year it was the tires,this year its the electroniics.Will the hord be succesful in forcing Dorna to a spec ecu.The year after that it will be the suspension.Maybe Rossi can force the powers that be to force Stoner back to Michelins or just have him banned outright for the good of the sport.Translation:So Rossi and his fans wont feel bored.I never thought i would say this about Moto Gp fans but you are no better than NASCAR fans,or should i say Dale Jr fans.Kyle Busch is Casey Stoner and Rossi is Jr.Let someone beat the chosen one and the accusations start flying.They have more hp,their cheating,they have better tires,they have better electronics.Sound familiar,go to a Nascar board and just sustitute names and its the same old .........


Good post.
But selective blind faith cannot be cured overnight.
When the 4 Ducati's fill the top 4 places on the time sheets every race, particularly on tight twisty tracks I'll concede the Ducati may have an electronics advantage. But Vale beat 2 of those Ducati's at Assen after falling off and rejoining.

If motogp is so boring why is it that I can hardly wait for FP3 and Q final? It's gonna be a hell of a long day for Yamaha\Rossi as they pull out all the stops to catch Stoner. Haydens up front and CV isn't doing to badly. Capper & Pedrosa get the true grit award.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jul 19 2008, 02:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Last year it was the tires,this year its the electroniics.Will the hord be succesful in forcing Dorna to a spec ecu.The year after that it will be the suspension.Maybe Rossi can force the powers that be to force Stoner back to Michelins or just have him banned outright for the good of the sport.Translation:So Rossi and his fans wont feel bored.I never thought i would say this about Moto Gp fans but you are no better than NASCAR fans,or should i say Dale Jr fans.Kyle Busch is Casey Stoner and Rossi is Jr.Let someone beat the chosen one and the accusations start flying.They have more hp,their cheating,they have better tires,they have better electronics.Sound familiar,go to a Nascar board and just sustitute names and its the same old .........No tiny bit of irony in that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Jul 18 2008, 07:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If motogp is so boring why is it that I can hardly wait for FP3 and Q final?

You didn't mention the race. There's a reason for that--motogp is boring as hell.

You answered your own question without even realizing it.

Stoner is doing what he does best, balls out from the first lap. Michelin still suck here. I'd be surprised if Pedrosa rides on Sunday. He'll be lucky to score a point, He may rely on a few "finish or bin it" riders, but with 32 laps I doubt his hand/wrist will hold out.

Will we see a 1:20 from Stoner on q's?

I personally think that it is unlikely that ducati have much of a tc/electronics advantage. I find it hard to believe there is only one guy in the world who can program automotive ecus; presumably he is a ferrari technician and ducati have the mafia holding his daughter hostage so he won't tell anyone else how to do it . It does seem likely ducati have a power advantage;if so, I agree it is credit to them, and if they have smoothed out the power delivery this would also seem to be an unexceptionable development direction. I don't know how they have got the thing to handle well even on tight tracks now; I had thought this would require chassis improvements but I could easily be wrong. It also seems likely that stoner is still making a very significant contribution as stoner fans including me have been saying for a year and a half.

However it does seem to be emerging, including on a yamaha site, that there is now engine mapping for track position/corners. The logical end point of continued development along these lines would seem to me to be engineers controlling the bikes from the pits remotely. I also see little real world application other than traffic control for motor scooters, which come to think of it might be very useful, but not of great interest to followers of bike racing or riders of powerful road bikes.

I agree with those who say that competition from wsbk is a problem and have no answer to this other than that it would seem to be a good idea to have firm control of the technical regulations under one body. One of the reasons the bikes in wsbk are so fast is presumably that they now have a lot of motogp derived technology. I think at least part of the reason cars in motor racing other than F1 are not as fast as F1 cars is that they have technical regulations limiting their development.

Yes, at last we have the "track position traction control fairy" riding around with Casey sprinkling fairy dust and whisking him from section to section where in pixel perfect 3Dmania he picks up a bucket of coins or a strawberry and gets a bonus point before continuing on in his virtual reality world…this is a terrible representation from people in tragic and possibly incurable denial.

The ECU Casey has is made by Magneti Marelli. Yamaha owns this company. There is a picture of Valentino Rossi on the opening page of the motor sport section of their website - and you all thought Casey was their poster boy.

Casey has the series one ECU and Valentino has the updated series 2 which is far more capable. The Ducatis Kawasakis and satellite Yamahas all have the same ECU. It works well for the Yamahas and one Ducati but for Team green and the other Duc's it hasn't helped.

There is no control from the pits, it's not allowed and it's a rumour started by people who just have difficulty saying Casey rides fast. It is beyond the pall that this would be discussed in any serious and intelligent way.

However there are other forums on the net for people who believe in all kinds of conspiracies, UFO's, Bigfoot and stuff like that.

Bigfoot may be the mystery ECU programmer working for Ducati (it's just as realistic). He may also be an alien. That should answer all your questions.

Ducati seem to be making Fridays very boring, they are obviously running something they don't use in Qualifying.

Maybe its to give Stoner the i'm Superman feeling

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 19 2008, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>However it does seem to be emerging, including on a yamaha site, that there is now engine mapping for track position/corners. The logical end point of continued development along theses lines would seem to me to be engineers controlling the bikes from the pits remotely. I also see little real world application other than traffic control for motor scooters, which come to think of it might be very useful, but not of great interest to followers of bike racing or riders of powerful road bikes.

I think that Ducati had the system that new where the bike was on the track, with different ecu settings for the track position, last year.
Just checked and the page i linked to earlier where Yamaha were saying they used the same ecu witch was programmable for each corner.

http://www.yamaha-racing.com/Racing/motogp.../technical3.jsp

Unfortunately, there are plans by government to introduce gps devices that must be permanently attached to the vehicle and will report traffic violation, such as speeding. The technology is available, and many governments will introduce it. Should produce a thriving market in ways to defeat it.
On the good side, a system that might be able to warn the rider of impending danger would be usefull. Have you never been riding on an unfamiliar road when suddenly you come into a bend that is unsignposted and trickier than the rest.

If the bike knew where you were it might be able to save you from making a mistake? While i would like to say that I would prefer to use my decades of acquired skills to save my butt, I have to admit that some things that I innitially scorned, such as ABS, I nowadays would seriously consider.

Hi andy roo
Could it be that the electronics upgrade that changed Stoners performance was the series 2 ecu?


2nd edit.

Meant to add. I thought that Magneti Marelli were owned by Fiat.

edit again

Yes they do, to answer my own question.
This simple chart explains their holdings.

http://www.magnetimarelli.com/_modules/dow...giugno_2007.pdf

I'd love to know, if they do have the second series unit then they are the same place ECU wise as Jorge and Vale.

Whilst I agree with traction control as a way of keeping the bikes fast I think that remote control would offend this as there is no real benefit to flow on to real motorcycles and real road safety or speed.

On Casey's bike (from my understanding) they reduced mid range torque to stop this clashing with the chassis flex, this was the "pumping" as Casey called it, it was throwing the weight backwards and forwards and ruining the stance of the front of the bike causing the rear to oscillate wildly under throttle.

I believe they are running the 1st series unit still.

Sorry,

Fiat are the major sponsors of the factory Yamaha team - I stand corrected.

Valentino has strong links to the company.

It should read "Yamaha's major sponsor owns Magneti Marelli".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sarto @ Jul 19 2008, 03:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hi andy roo
Could it be that the electronics upgrade that changed Stoners performance was the series 2 ecu?


2nd edit.

Meant to add. I thought that Magneti Marelli were owned by Fiat.

edit again

Yes they do, to answer my own question.
This simple chart explains their holdings.

http://www.magnetimarelli.com/_modules/dow...giugno_2007.pdf

Sorry about that, got firewalled and stuffed up by the work system. That was all one reply

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jul 18 2008, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wow. Hacking is right on Spies' tail, which reinforces the need for more equal equipment in AMA competition. Who knew Hacking had such pace.
AMA = Yosh Cup....therefore, in my view it is not a series by which we should or can measure rider talent. If you put Spies or Mladin on Hacking's Kwak or Duhamel's Honda then would he win the AMA title....not a chance.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jul 18 2008, 09:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Mladin faster on his Superbike than half the GP field
See above...AMA is not a measure of true rider talent ... It is a measure of the Suzuki/Yosh to make a great bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 18 2008, 10:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think west is on a mission at the moment, he wants to set some good times and get a few good positions as it is rumoured that Marco will be in the team from the Czech gp onwards.
Marco can be fire by Ducati after this weekend, but Marco CANNOT race until 2009...this apparently has been agreed under the terms of Marco's desire to exit Ducati at the end of this year....Source is MCN.


And lastly....Stoner is a proper defending champion, and truely deserving of the number 1 plate!
Awesome stuff from the Aussie!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jul 19 2008, 02:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Last year it was the tires,this year its the electroniics.Will the hord be succesful in forcing Dorna to a spec ecu.The year after that it will be the suspension.Maybe Rossi can force the powers that be to force Stoner back to Michelins or just have him banned outright for the good of the sport.Translation:So Rossi and his fans wont feel bored.I never thought i would say this about Moto Gp fans but you are no better than NASCAR fans,or should i say Dale Jr fans.Kyle Busch is Casey Stoner and Rossi is Jr.Let someone beat the chosen one and the accusations start flying.They have more hp,their cheating,they have better tires,they have better electronics.Sound familiar,go to a Nascar board and just sustitute names and its the same old .........

i think the problem is that when we see 1sec advantage over rossi there is NO WAY stoner is 1 sec quicker then rossi on ANY TRACK! or for reference pedrosa who wiped the floor with stoner in 250cc,

so fans want to see equal machinary (or close as dorna can) so we can see who is the best.
thats all nothing against stoner at all.

I was being facetious in saying about bikes being remotely controlled from the pits as I assumed everyone would realise, and even then I said it was the logical endpoint, not that it was occurring. Apart from anything else it is my understanding that current gps is not sufficiently accurate, or at least if it is it is not accessible to civilians.

I stand to be corrected by the many with more technical knowledge than me, but I can't see why they can't do a run, acquire data, and then change the engine mapping to suit a particular corner. I am certainly a luddite where computers are concerned and perhaps I am in general if I would rather the rider has to determine where he is on the track and decide on the throttle input each time around.

(EDIT)
I agree that people seem less concerned when yamaha appeared to have an advantage earlier this year, but this is fairly understandable given human nature and the relative number of stoner and rossi fans in the world. I still think it is legitimate to question the direction of the sport and that this can be done without denigrating stoner or rossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 19 2008, 06:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>On Casey's bike (from my understanding) they reduced mid range torque to stop this clashing with the chassis flex, this was the "pumping" as Casey called it, it was throwing the weight backwards and forwards and ruining the stance of the front of the bike causing the rear to oscillate wildly under throttle.
This sounds like a fairly good explanation to me.