Kawasaki & Hopper Mistake?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 1 2008, 06:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have to be careful because my post is likely to cause a massive flame war, but IMO, Hopper went for money, nothing more nothing less.

To me, Hopkins is an enigma which often leads me to question his commitment within terms of MotoGP. In short, I find myself often wondering if he is over-rated.

I have no doubt that he has ability, you don't get to international level without ability, but in reality given his years in MotoGP he has achieved little in terms of results. Yes certainly this may well be due to lesser quality machinery but his less experienced team-mate was able to out-perform him last year (won a race and podiums) yet that same ex-team-mate is the one under fire this year.

I have no doubt that Hopkins may well have the right attitude 90% of the time, he may also have the full on ability but to date I cannot think anything other than he saw a paycheck and took it (no blame apportioned there).

The only factor that makes me cut him some slack is that the Kawasaki was performing well late last year and may have clouded his judgement a bit, but I still come back to the money.






Garry
i agree there garry.
i dont think hopper made the mistake, i think kawasaki made the mistake by paying to much for him unless he is a real .... hot development rider which i doubt. i read he is the second highest paid on the grid. i dont think even his fans would say he is the second best on the grid.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Jul 1 2008, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The trouble is you can't develop the bike riding at 9/10ths and he is their development rider.

edit: Sorry, welcome to the site.

good point. but if he keeps going like he has, he isn't going to have a career for long, and kaw isn't going to get ANY development done.

I recall he requested a whole lot of changes and said some nasty things about de Puniet's development skills when he first rode the bike in November. Sadly for Kawa that is about as far as the development got

I can't see Randy stickin around especially with the new crop of riders on the horizon. As for Hopper I am sure he can get results but I have to wonder what is up with Kawasaki. Their Superbike is also sort of an enigma since they should have that bike sorted well enough already. I thought that after last year they were going to be at the forefront of the grid the wat they were going.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sally @ Jul 1 2008, 02:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I recall he requested a whole lot of changes and said some nasty things about de Puniet's development skills when he first rode the bike in November. Sadly for Kawa that is about as far as the development got

Yah and I can't say I'd disagree with a fairly low opinion of de Puniet's developmental skills.....I mean the poor guy has spent a good portion of his premier class racing time face down in the gravel......part of me thinks that Hopper was expecting to go in, and find a bike that was just being under ridden and in need of only a few tweaks......and what he found was a bike that was very much lacking......

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 1 2008, 09:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>......and what he found was a bike that was very much lacking......
....but 5 million bucks the better on his next bank statement. You can't have your cake....

He left a team for a similar team... for financial gain.

Now that team is not doing so well and lost the riders who took Kawasaki towards the top like Nakano.

I don't think its a good move to change two team members.. (West coming in last year)

It seems that Hoppers 2 options last year were to stay with Suzuki or go to Kawi.
If he had an option to join any of the other factory teams for less money than Kawi was paying
I think he would have gone to one of them instead. He's a racer that's for the most part uncompetitive for years in MotoGP. He feels that he is better than his results which stem from being on inferior machinery.
With his only 2 options being chicken .... and horse .... it was smart of him to go for the one that would at least pay more.
I'm sure he felt as well that if he could develop that bike better than it was than any success from Kawasaki would correlate directly to him. He knows that he is the only rider worth a .... in the green paddock. Imagine being given the opportunity to be in charge of all the development for a factory team. I think most riders who have the uptmost confidence in their abilities would love such an opportunity.
Look at Valentino and Yamaha. He resurrected them.
Do you think there wasn't a glint in Hoppers eye when he was daydreaming about that kind of glory.
The problem is when you take that kind of responsibility the failures will be attritubuted to you as well.
So I believe he changed teams for the money but it wouldn't have been the deciding factor it he was offered a job on a competitive bike.

Kawasaki has been improving at the same rate as Suzuki and both have about the same championships in the last 5 years--zero. I'd hardly call this a step down to sell his soul for money. On top of the fact that the Kawasaki racing management had made it clear (as had also been well documented by the media) that they intended to produce a winning effort. They had shown improvement to back up that claim, they have thrown money at their team, and part of that equation was to get an available talented rider. The guy has dedicated most of his career and youth to this company (Suzuki) that wins a championship few and far between, which also had the same opportunity to keep him and reward him for all the years he rode a .... bike (less we forget). He was in a position to see that Suzuki by their own will had reached its zenith (a low one at that) and were unwilling to cross the costly line of developing a winning package. Something that Kawasaki overtly promised to deliver. So forget the compensation at this point, these were the facts at the moment, knowing this, would you have signed on with Kawasaki at that point? (I would have at that moment).

Well, for sure He was right about Suzuki, as has been evidenced by their results this year. Kawasaki on the other hand made promises, signed him, but have yet to deliver and couple this with some unfortunate injuries and bad luck. Why does it have to be a bad thing that another company is willing to reward his talent with a compensation package? Why is this some kind of selling out? I don’t get it? Why his compensation is relevant I have yet for somebody to answer this question reasonably. I think his high pay only served for us to have a higher expectation. But that’s us, surely we can see this is NOT relevant to what has transpired. Who among us could have predicted the injuries and mechanical DNF after what looked to be a promising improvement to the machine last year? Instead accusing Hopkins of being a sell out, which clearly was a lateral move in factories all things considered. Why is not the question, why did Suzuki not retain him and why didn’t they deliver a wining package? Suzuki has had capable riders teamed up with Hopkins, you would have thought by now the team would have made progress, but it was Hopkins who came 4th in the classification and hungered for a title, something it seems Suzuki were not (and have not) committed to do. Therefore I thing the factory in this case has more to do with this issue of failure to meet expectation than the irrelevant compensation package of Hopkins.

Unless anybody reading this is prepared to go into their employer’s office in the morning and ask them to ‘decrease’ their pay for the same work.

So to answer the question posed, was it a mistake for him to go to Kawasaki, my answer is NO. If anything, it would have been a mistake to stay with Suzuki. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. He said I'm out of here, screw your underdeveloped program.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 3 2008, 08:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>you would have thought by now the team would have made progress, but it was Hopkins who came 4th in the classification and hungered for a title, something it seems Suzuki were not (and have not) committed to do.

So far signing Loris appears to be progress over the riders they've had in the recent past. And i think it is a little harsh to question Suzuki's commitment to winning. IF they weren't commited they wouldn't be there.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 3 2008, 08:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Suzuki has had capable riders teamed up with Hopkins, you would have thought by now the team would have made progress, but it was Hopkins who came 4th in the classification and hungered for a title, something it seems Suzuki were not (and have not) committed to do. Therefore I thing the factory in this case has more to do with this issue of failure to meet expectation than the irrelevant compensation package of Hopkins.

isnt that exactly the same thing thats happened to suzuki? or does that only happen with kawasaki?

and loris has gone on record to say just how committed 'zuki are to winning a moto gp title or 2 (it was in an autosport article IIRC)

Hopper needs to get off the Kwak before it kills him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jul 3 2008, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hopper needs to get off the Kwak before it kills him.
Agreed. If their chains break, what does it say about the rest of the bike?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Jul 3 2008, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Agreed. If their chains break, what does it say about the rest of the bike?j
kawasaki dont make chain's i dont think. and they would only use endless chains on a race bike you would think so that was down to DID or who ever supply them chains. its a lot of power to put through those dinky chains they use too. i think there like 240 bhp going through a 520 chain

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jul 3 2008, 12:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>kawasaki dont make chain's i dont think. and they would only use endless chains on a race bike you would think so that was down to DID or who ever supply them chains. its a lot of power to put through those dinky chains they use too. i think there like 240 bhp going through a 520 chain
Sure, doesn't often happen though, does it? Just adds to the impression that the whole thing is fairly ramshackle. Whatever, the kawasaki does seem to have developed a propensity for chucking hopper into trackside scenery with minimal provocation as curve says.

To be fair they were looking not too bad last year, and may have just taken a wrong turn as have others including honda, yamaha and ducati in the recent past, and presumably ducati in the first part of this year. I also think it is quite likely they have been considerably outspent by honda and yamaha after their embarassment last year, and probably by ducati corse if they do have as much marlboro money as is rumoured.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 3 2008, 01:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Kawasaki has been improving at the same rate as Suzuki and both have about the same championships in the last 5 years--zero. I'd hardly call this a step down to sell his soul for money. On top of the fact that the Kawasaki racing management had made it clear (as had also been well documented by the media) that they intended to produce a winning effort. They had shown improvement to back up that claim, they have thrown money at their team, and part of that equation was to get an available talented rider. The guy has dedicated most of his career and youth to this company (Suzuki) that wins a championship few and far between, which also had the same opportunity to keep him and reward him for all the years he rode a .... bike (less we forget). He was in a position to see that Suzuki by their own will had reached its zenith (a low one at that) and were unwilling to cross the costly line of developing a winning package. Something that Kawasaki overtly promised to deliver. So forget the compensation at this point, these were the facts at the moment, knowing this, would you have signed on with Kawasaki at that point? (I would have at that moment).

Well, for sure He was right about Suzuki, as has been evidenced by their results this year. Kawasaki on the other hand made promises, signed him, but have yet to deliver and couple this with some unfortunate injuries and bad luck. Why does it have to be a bad thing that another company is willing to reward his talent with a compensation package? Why is this some kind of selling out? I don’t get it? Why his compensation is relevant I have yet for somebody to answer this question reasonably. I think his high pay only served for us to have a higher expectation. But that’s us, surely we can see this is NOT relevant to what has transpired. Who among us could have predicted the injuries and mechanical DNF after what looked to be a promising improvement to the machine last year? Instead accusing Hopkins of being a sell out, which clearly was a lateral move in factories all things considered. Why is not the question, why did Suzuki not retain him and why didn’t they deliver a wining package? Suzuki has had capable riders teamed up with Hopkins, you would have thought by now the team would have made progress, but it was Hopkins who came 4th in the classification and hungered for a title, something it seems Suzuki were not (and have not) committed to do. Therefore I thing the factory in this case has more to do with this issue of failure to meet expectation than the irrelevant compensation package of Hopkins.

Unless anybody reading this is prepared to go into their employer’s office in the morning and ask them to ‘decrease’ their pay for the same work.

So to answer the question posed, was it a mistake for him to go to Kawasaki, my answer is NO. If anything, it would have been a mistake to stay with Suzuki. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. He said I'm out of here, screw your underdeveloped program.
There is no doubt that the move was lateral. I can see the appeal of Kawasaki, Nakano made some sound results in '05 and '06 then looked .... on a Honda in '07. Randy de Puniet was terribly inconsistent but when he did finish, or at times before he crashed, showed some speed. Two riders with little pedigree and better than expected results? I guess the ZX-RR could be contributed for their results so perhaps Hopper thought he had the skill to take it to a win.

But doesn't anyone else think that the Kawasaki "we'll be more competitive than we are now" song and dance is the same that Suzuki kept preaching to Hopper? If being competitive is what he wanted, then why didn't he sign for Ducati when he had the chance and opt to stay with Suzuki? Then it was a bit fishy when he signed for Monster in 2007, signed for Kawasaki from 2008 and Monster become title sponsor of Kawasaki from 2008. For me anyways, passing on a competitive ride to stay with Suzuki then moving laterally when the sponsors aligned is where the term "sell-out" comes into play.

If Hopper stayed at Suzuki the results this year would have been better than he has had on the Kawi. But he would be a few million short. And lateral? Where did Kawasaki finish last year? Certainly not in 6th and 4th place because <u>no</u> other team had 2 riders in the top 6 last year, only Suzuki. And not one mechanical DNF. Kawasaki said this was a building year and next year they go for the championship. That was ridiculous rhetoric. If it wasn't for Stoner's brillance on the Ducati the title would only go back and forth between Honda and Yamaha. The other teams don't have much of a chance because of resources. Hell, they would be estatic to win a race.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 3 2008, 09:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>For me anyways, passing on a competitive ride to stay with Suzuki then moving laterally when the sponsors aligned is where the term "sell-out" comes into play.

yeah he seems to be riding for "team green" in every sense of the term....unfortunately

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Jul 3 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If Hopper stayed at Suzuki the results this year would have been better than he has had on the Kawi. But he would be a few million short. And lateral? Where did Kawasaki finish last year? Certainly not in 6th and 4th place because <u>no</u> other team had 2 riders in the top 6 last year, only Suzuki. And not one mechanical DNF. Kawasaki said this was a building year and next year they go for the championship. That was ridiculous rhetoric. If it wasn't for Stoner's brillance on the Ducati the title would only go back and forth between Honda and Yamaha. The other teams don't have much of a chance because of resources. Hell, they would be estatic to win a race.
I mean lateral in the sense of the latter portion of your post. Neither have a shot at a championship and have a very outside chance at a win.

I guess I'm thinking that Kawi don't stand a chance to ever win and Suzuki has and possibly can again. Actually maybe it balances out because he got money he never would have at Suzuki and traded for a bike that will never win. Seems kind of lateral I guess...