Kawasaki & Hopper Mistake?

Sup guys, I wanted your take on this. It seems like we're always talking about a three way battle these days between Yam, HRc and Duc......my hope was that the Hopper connection was going to bring Kawi into the fold but so far its been a disaster of the mediocre kind........did Hopps move for money or did he really need another project bike at this point.....I really though he had a win in the wrapper at Suzuki comin at him....was I wrong?
So what if anything is needed to turn the Kawi train away from derailment......throw more money at them? better riders? new management? ....what's everyone think?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 1 2008, 02:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sup guys, I wanted your take on this. It seems like we're always talking about a three way battle these days between Yam, HRc and Duc......my hope was that the Hopper connection was going to bring Kawi into the fold but so far its been a disaster of the mediocre kind........did Hopps move for money or did he really need another project bike at this point.....I really though he had a win in the wrapper at Suzuki comin at him....was I wrong?
So what if anything is needed to turn the Kawi train away from derailment......throw more money at them? better riders? new management? ....what's everyone think?

I'm pretty sure he went for the money but I'm sure he thought Kawasaki would up their game this year. To be quite honest I believe both Suzuki & Kawasaki have failed to improve their bikes a great deal from last year. So far in 2008 Hopper hasn't looked like getting on the podium, but something that might make him sleep better at night, is the fact that Suzuki haven't either. He's a favourite of mine so I hope the season improves for him. Can't get any worse surely?

I have to be careful because my post is likely to cause a massive flame war, but IMO, Hopper went for money, nothing more nothing less.

To me, Hopkins is an enigma which often leads me to question his commitment within terms of MotoGP. In short, I find myself often wondering if he is over-rated.

I have no doubt that he has ability, you don't get to international level without ability, but in reality given his years in MotoGP he has achieved little in terms of results. Yes certainly this may well be due to lesser quality machinery but his less experienced team-mate was able to out-perform him last year (won a race and podiums) yet that same ex-team-mate is the one under fire this year.

I have no doubt that Hopkins may well have the right attitude 90% of the time, he may also have the full on ability but to date I cannot think anything other than he saw a paycheck and took it (no blame apportioned there).

The only factor that makes me cut him some slack is that the Kawasaki was performing well late last year and may have clouded his judgement a bit, but I still come back to the money.






Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 1 2008, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have to be careful because my post is likely to cause a massive flame war, but IMO, Hopper went for money, nothing more nothing less.

To me, Hopkins is an enigma which often leads me to question his commitment within terms of MotoGP. In short, I find myself often wondering if he is over-rated.

I have no doubt that he has ability, you don't get to international level without ability, but in reality given his years in MotoGP he has achieved little in terms of results. Yes certainly this may well be due to lesser quality machinery but his less experienced team-mate was able to out-perform him last year (won a race and podiums) yet that same ex-team-mate is the one under fire this year.

I have no doubt that Hopkins may well have the right attitude 90% of the time, he may also have the full on ability but to date I cannot think anything other than he saw a paycheck and took it (no blame apportioned there).

The only factor that makes me cut him some slack is that the Kawasaki was performing well late last year and may have clouded his judgement a bit, but I still come back to the money.






Garry

Fair enough. Your opinion.
On the less experienced team mate outperforming him. ( disagree )
CV probable had Hoppers measure at Laguna and San Marino.
Laguna even if Hopper made it unscathed to the finish line. It's a CV track.
CV was also faster in the wet. ( no big deal CV is a very good wet weather rider )
Other than that, Hopper pretty much had Chris's measure week in week out and outscored him at seasons end even considering Chris's wet weather Le Mans win. I agree the move to Kawasaki was probably money motivated, but he is not the first nor will he be the last to change teams for a better deal.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Jul 1 2008, 07:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Fair enough. Your opinion.
On the less experienced team mate outperforming him. ( disagree )
CV probable had Hoppers measure at Laguna and San Marino.
Laguna even if Hopper made it unscathed to the finish line. It's a CV track.
CV was also faster in the wet. ( no big deal CV is a very good wet weather rider )
Other than that, Hopper pretty much had Chris's measure week in week out and outscored him at seasons end even considering Chris's wet weather Le Mans win. I agree the move to Kawasaki was probably money motivated, but he is not the first nor will he be the last to change teams for a better deal.


Maybe I should have clarified the 'outperform' bit.

CV definitely got better podium results last year (although IMO he is also the better rider) than did Hopkins who beat him by a few points in the championship. From memory (and it is memory) CV podiumed at LeMans, Laguna, SanMarino and Phillip Island, whereas Hopkins had 2 - 3 podium results. Definitely Hopkins had better results in the 4 - 8 places category.

As for the money side, I fully expect CE to go where the dollars are highest given that any contract will likely be his last and personally, these guys may well be sportsmen but they are also businessmen and need to look at the future. They have a short span and anybody who begrudges their ability to earn good dollars is just envious that these guys get the opportunity. Personally, were I in Hopkins shoes at the end of last year, the money would easily have won me over.





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 1 2008, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe I should have clarified the 'outperform' bit.

CV definitely got better podium results last year (although IMO he is also the better rider) than did Hopkins who beat him by a few points in the championship. From memory (and it is memory) CV podiumed at LeMans, Laguna, SanMarino and Phillip Island, whereas Hopkins had 2 - 3 podium results. Definitely Hopkins had better results in the 4 - 8 places category.

As for the money side, I fully expect CE to go where the dollars are highest given that any contract will likely be his last and personally, these guys may well be sportsmen but they are also businessmen and need to look at the future. They have a short span and anybody who begrudges their ability to earn good dollars is just envious that these guys get the opportunity. Personally, were I in Hopkins shoes at the end of last year, the money would easily have won me over.





Garry

Swap Phillip Island for Donington Park ( wet race again )
Ok I love stats

Hopper (4th) Qatar by 14 seconds over C.V (7th)
Jerez Hopper dropped the front whilst in 3rd - CV 9th
Turkey - not fair to CV because he got punted by O.J - Hopper 6th
China - Hopper (3rd) 20 seconds over CV (7th)
Le Mans - CV (1st) over a minute to Hopper (7th) (wet)
Mugello - Hopper (5th) 9 seconds over CV (8th)
Catalunya - Hopper (4th) 12 seconds to Cv (7th)
Donington Park - Cv (3rd) 20 seconds to Hopper (5th)
Assen - Hopper (5th) - I think CV had a ride through penalty (last)
Germany - Hopper (7th) over 28 seconds to CV (11th)
Laguna - CV 2nd Hopper (dnf) tangle with Hayden first corner.
Brno - Hopper (2nd) by 10 seconds to CV (5th)
Misano - Cv (2nd) by 12 seconds to Hopper (3rd)
Estoril - Hopper (6th) by 42 second to CV (13th) Maybe chris had a bingle? can't remember
Motegi - Hopper 10th by 3 seconds over CV (11th) wet/dry race
Philip Island - Hopper (7th) by 5 seconds to CV (8th)
Sepang - CV (7th) 2 tenths to Hopper (8th)
Valencia - Hopper (3rd) by 5 seconds to CV (6th)

Hopper on the whole was slightly better in my book.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Jul 1 2008, 06:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hopper on the whole was slightly better in my book.


Not trying to sound 'antsy' in any way, but I doubt that our opinions will agree as the big picture for me is that Hopper has been around a far sight longer (CV's second or third year, JH fifth I think) and therefore I would expect his results to be better that CV.

In all honesty though, it is also second to the topic at hand and we do both agree on that.

What I did not say earlier is that I do not think Hopkins made a mistake from a financial viewpoint and unless we knew what other offers may have been on the table, it is difficult to judge whether he made a mistake career wise. Is it possible that there was no contract offer from Suzuki or other manufacturer?






Garry

both are mid field riders. hopper gets the more kudos and will be first choice for a contract or better ride coz of his passport.

I actually think John made the move for all the right reasons, the outcome has not been desirable though. Bike trouble or not though john needs to stay on it because he's already lost a lot of track time this season, but equally Kawasaki need to build bikes that actually work. I think next years results should be the ones we use to judge.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 1 2008, 05:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not trying to sound 'antsy' in any way, but I doubt that our opinions will agree as the big picture for me is that Hopper has been around a far sight longer (CV's second or third year, JH fifth I think) and therefore I would expect his results to be better that CV.

In all honesty though, it is also second to the topic at hand and we do both agree on that.

What I did not say earlier is that I do not think Hopkins made a mistake from a financial viewpoint and unless we knew what other offers may have been on the table, it is difficult to judge whether he made a mistake career wise. Is it possible that there was no contract offer from Suzuki or other manufacturer?






Garry

No problem
Agree to disagree then.

We may moan about riders doing for the money, and granted if they are successful they will make more than we ever make. Plenty of riders btw don't make that much money. Case in point Ant West who currently rents a room and owes his dad close to a million A$.
If they ride around relatively injury free they retire at 35 so they only have a few short years to make that money and it is to last them a lot of years because professional skills? erm... not really.

That said, do I think Hoppers went for money? Of course! Suzuki and Kawa looked relatively even in performance last year and I did expect him to do better this year as that bike was pretty good last year but ridden by West and Monsieur Crashalot. Kawa have seriously dropped the ball!
Also Suzuki was pretty miffed with him going, and I recall they weren't given an chance to even make an offer to retain Hopper.

Can anyone confirm if he was offered a seat at Ducati? I heard rumblings of that during silly season last year.....if not factory, on the sat team?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jun 30 2008, 10:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sup guys, I wanted your take on this. It seems like we're always talking about a three way battle these days between Yam, HRc and Duc......my hope was that the Hopper connection was going to bring Kawi into the fold but so far its been a disaster of the mediocre kind........did Hopps move for money or did he really need another project bike at this point.....I really though he had a win in the wrapper at Suzuki comin at him....was I wrong?
So what if anything is needed to turn the Kawi train away from derailment......throw more money at them? better riders? new management? ....what's everyone think?
Money.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jun 30 2008, 11:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I have to be careful because my post is likely to cause a massive flame war, but IMO, Hopper went for money, nothing more nothing less.

To me, Hopkins is an enigma which often leads me to question his commitment within terms of MotoGP. In short, I find myself often wondering if he is over-rated.

I have no doubt that he has ability, you don't get to international level without ability, but in reality given his years in MotoGP he has achieved little in terms of results. Yes certainly this may well be due to lesser quality machinery but his less experienced team-mate was able to out-perform him last year (won a race and podiums) yet that same ex-team-mate is the one under fire this year.

I have no doubt that Hopkins may well have the right attitude 90% of the time, he may also have the full on ability but to date I cannot think anything other than he saw a paycheck and took it (no blame apportioned there).

The only factor that makes me cut him some slack is that the Kawasaki was performing well late last year and may have clouded his judgement a bit, but I still come back to the money.






Garry
Pretty much my thoughts exactly, although I don't cut him slack for Kawasaki's improving results near the end of last season. I felt that the Suzuki and Kawasaki were very even but Suzuki appeared to be on the verge of race wins and regular podiums whereas Kawasaki was on the verge of regular podiums and top fives. Then there is the whole issue of him reportedly turning down a factory Ducati ride to stay on with Suzuki.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jul 1 2008, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Can anyone confirm if he was offered a seat at Ducati? I heard rumblings of that during silly season last year.....if not factory, on the sat team?
I'm not sure if it was ever verified but I think he received offers to ride the factory Ducati after 2004 and 2005, haven't heard rumors about an offer in 2007 though. Again, that's what memory tells me, I don't have any proof.

Put yourself in John's shoes. He'd been with Suzuki a long time without seeing too much significant imporvement. He's a racer so he wont question his responsibility for that lack of progress, but he will notice his teammate with far less experience is a threat. Kawasaki make an offer after a season where they have totally changed their team structure and seamingly made lots of progress, they say all the right things and convince him they are moving up and that he will be their #1 priority. the bike appears to be roughly equal to what he has, but the riders on it aren't conidered to be particularly special. Besides all of that there is the money thing. We know how dangerous the sport is, riders need to earn while they can because one bad day could be the end of his major earning years. Fair play to John, hopefully he and Kawasaki can perform better in future

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Jul 1 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm not sure if it was ever verified but I think he received offers to ride the factory Ducati after 2004 and 2005, haven't heard rumors about an offer in 2007 though. Again, that's what memory tells me, I don't have any proof.

Yeah now that would have been fun to see....I can just imagine the elbow dragging Hopper on the beast Ducati....I think I read that on Eurosport....could be wrong....


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 1 2008, 10:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Put yourself in John's shoes. He'd been with Suzuki a long time without seeing too much significant imporvement. He's a racer so he wont question his responsibility for that lack of progress, but he will notice his teammate with far less experience is a threat. Kawasaki make an offer after a season where they have totally changed their team structure and seamingly made lots of progress, they say all the right things and convince him they are moving up and that he will be their #1 priority. the bike appears to be roughly equal to what he has, but the riders on it aren't conidered to be particularly special. Besides all of that there is the money thing. We know how dangerous the sport is, riders need to earn while they can because one bad day could be the end of his major earning years. Fair play to John, hopefully he and Kawasaki can perform better in future

I just hope Hopper gets a chance to win.....one of the most aggressive guys out there...

Hopper has history of untimely injuries. When he previously broke both his ankles in California dirt bike riding Suzuki missed the entire first part of the season development (actually half a year) and have been behind ever since. This years injury did the same for Kawasaki. I don't have the complete list but this year alone it is growing with several falls.

The Kawasaki wasn't worth going for IMO but then again if he wasn't happy with the GSVR's plodding development (and who is?) then who can blame him?

The money wasn't too bad either. There are several things I would do for 2.7 mill that I wouldn't think of for 65 grand. Several...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Jul 1 2008, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The money wasn't too bad either. There are several things I would do for 2.7 mill that I wouldn't think of for 65 grand. Several...
In what currency? I've heard his contract is in the realm of $5 million US annually (in a combined contract from Kawasaki and Monster).

I think 2.7 million Euros. Randy Mamola is part of his management team. I wonder what he thinks of the situation?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Doc 79 @ Jun 30 2008, 11:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sup guys, I wanted your take on this. It seems like we're always talking about a three way battle these days between Yam, HRc and Duc......my hope was that the Hopper connection was going to bring Kawi into the fold but so far its been a disaster of the mediocre kind........did Hopps move for money or did he really need another project bike at this point.....I really though he had a win in the wrapper at Suzuki comin at him....was I wrong?
So what if anything is needed to turn the Kawi train away from derailment......throw more money at them? better riders? new management? ....what's everyone think?

First post here. Hey everyone!

I'm a kawi fan first, hopper fan second (I follow all the kaw's in every series). I DO like hopper. Guess the movie Faster did it for me.

1st - i definitely had high hopes that hopper was going to take the kaw to the next level, and MAJORLY dissapointed he hasn't.

2cd - i'm thinking it may be because there weren't many improvements done on the bike duruing the offseason. it might be because of the injury. might be because kaw thought hopper could do more with the bike, and they didn't have to develope it as much. <shrugs>

last - what is needed? a healthy hopper, which may not happen this year. even when he gets back on the bike, he needs to chill like lorenzo is right now. just get back on the bike, and get some seat time on the thing. he hasn't had much!

The trouble is you can't develop the bike riding at 9/10ths and he is their development rider.

edit: Sorry, welcome to the site.