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Big Jorge
I really don't understand why so many members on this forum think Nicky Hayden is so good....
I really don't understand why so many members on this forum think Nicky Hayden is so good....
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Big Jorge
That only proves that they both can't ride a shity bike, what Rossi has proven that Nicky hasn't is that he can ride a well sorted bike with electronics. With every evolution of what a GP bike is Rossi has won, Nicky has not.
Rossi could ride 500s, 990s,800s,and 1000s, he has won races on every evolution of bike.
Nicky could ride the 990s and had huge problems with the switch to 800s, people like to blame that on the bike that was supposedly developed for Pedro, but it was the electronics causing his problems.
It doesn't mean that Nicky isn't a damned good rider, but the bikes have changed and he hasn't been able to change with them. The bikes moved away from his strength.
That only proves that they both can't ride a shity bike, what Rossi has proven that Nicky hasn't is that he can ride a well sorted bike with electronics. With every evolution of what a GP bike is Rossi has won, Nicky has not.
Rossi could ride 500s, 990s,800s,and 1000s, he has won races on every evolution of bike.
Nicky could ride the 990s and had huge problems with the switch to 800s, people like to blame that on the bike that was supposedly developed for Pedro, but it was the electronics causing his problems.
It doesn't mean that Nicky isn't a damned good rider, but the bikes have changed and he hasn't been able to change with them. The bikes moved away from his strength.
hawkdriver
Sure, the bikes moved away from his strength, and latterly also to a situation where there are really only 4 bikes with a chance of winning, with his bike not among them.
He will always be the 2006 world champion though, one of the most competitive seasons the sport has ever had, against some fairly good riders. Regardless of whether the times have moved against him or if he peaked then and has not been able to maintain it, the achievement stands. Not all sportsmen or sports teams for that matter can have repetitive success like Rossi or Man United or whatever, but for that season Nicky was the best. Rossi doesn't look like he is as good as Jorge or MM now, and Roger Federer doesn't look as good as Nadal or Djokovic, but that doesn't take away their achievements when at their ( rather protracted) peaks either.
I don't think it is unreasonable to consider someone who beat Matt Mladin for an AMA title and Valentino Rossi for a premier class GP title to have been a good rider, to answer elitemafia.
Sure, the bikes moved away from his strength, and latterly also to a situation where there are really only 4 bikes with a chance of winning, with his bike not among them.
He will always be the 2006 world champion though, one of the most competitive seasons the sport has ever had, against some fairly good riders. Regardless of whether the times have moved against him or if he peaked then and has not been able to maintain it, the achievement stands. Not all sportsmen or sports teams for that matter can have repetitive success like Rossi or Man United or whatever, but for that season Nicky was the best. Rossi doesn't look like he is as good as Jorge or MM now, and Roger Federer doesn't look as good as Nadal or Djokovic, but that doesn't take away their achievements when at their ( rather protracted) peaks either.
I don't think it is unreasonable to consider someone who beat Matt Mladin for an AMA title and Valentino Rossi for a premier class GP title to have been a good rider, to answer elitemafia.
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michaelm
Mladin is my all time favorite rider, so let's not forget Nicky was on the RC51(1000cc twin) the same bike built to take the WSBK crown.
Mladin is my all time favorite rider, so let's not forget Nicky was on the RC51(1000cc twin) the same bike built to take the WSBK crown.
MigsAngel
I am not exactly anti-Matt Mladin, or anti-Mick Doohan either, but Mladin crashing and injuring himself is his problem not Nicky's, just as with Rainey and Doohan in 1992, Schwantz and Rainey in 1993, Lorenzo and Rossi in 2010, and to a lesser extent Lorenzo and Stoner in 2012 (Lorenzo had a significant lead prior to Stoner crashing at Indy and quite likely would have won regardless imo).
Avoiding crashes which lead to protracted absences due to injury is usually an intrinsic requirement for winning a world championship, and I don't think it is different for AMA championships.
I am not exactly anti-Matt Mladin, or anti-Mick Doohan either, but Mladin crashing and injuring himself is his problem not Nicky's, just as with Rainey and Doohan in 1992, Schwantz and Rainey in 1993, Lorenzo and Rossi in 2010, and to a lesser extent Lorenzo and Stoner in 2012 (Lorenzo had a significant lead prior to Stoner crashing at Indy and quite likely would have won regardless imo).
Avoiding crashes which lead to protracted absences due to injury is usually an intrinsic requirement for winning a world championship, and I don't think it is different for AMA championships.
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Big Jorge
They were both nowhere in 2011 and 2012. The difference is that Rossi managed to make the podium, what, twice? three times? I can't remember. What was Nicky Haydens best result in those years? Definitely not the 2nd place Rossi got. Hayden never battled with Casey Stoner on the Ducati, rain or not. Hayden never was 2nd to only Lorenzo on a day with only one bike capable of wininng, but plenty of satellite bikes running around.
They were both nowhere in 2011 and 2012. The difference is that Rossi managed to make the podium, what, twice? three times? I can't remember. What was Nicky Haydens best result in those years? Definitely not the 2nd place Rossi got. Hayden never battled with Casey Stoner on the Ducati, rain or not. Hayden never was 2nd to only Lorenzo on a day with only one bike capable of wininng, but plenty of satellite bikes running around.
2 podiums for Ducati in 2008 (a second and a third), 1 in each of 2009, 2010, 2011 (all 3rds), close to another in 2012 at Mugello if Bradl hadn't punted him off the track, season results not far off Rossi in 2011 and 2012, and not far off Dovi this year. Dovi beat Cal convincingly on a Tech 3 last year, and was 3rd in the championship on an HRC bike in 2011, as you may recall elite.
I am under no illusions Nicky would win the championship against MM and Jorge if you put him back on a factory Honda or on a factory Yamaha, but he likely has rather plentiful company in terms of GP riders in the history of the sport in that regard. The logical extrapolation/endpoint of your line of argument would seem to be that everyone except MM and Jorge is a waste of a ride and should be sacked.
It could I guess be argued that he is too old at 32, but many have gone on longer than that, recently Loris Capirossi for one, who never won a premier class championship as far as I recall.
I am under no illusions Nicky would win the championship against MM and Jorge if you put him back on a factory Honda or on a factory Yamaha, but he likely has rather plentiful company in terms of GP riders in the history of the sport in that regard. The logical extrapolation/endpoint of your line of argument would seem to be that everyone except MM and Jorge is a waste of a ride and should be sacked.
It could I guess be argued that he is too old at 32, but many have gone on longer than that, recently Loris Capirossi for one, who never won a premier class championship as far as I recall.
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michaelm
slight correction for you..
2011 was a little close....7 points difference...
2012 was no where near close...
I will summarize for you
2011
Rossi - 1 3rd place only, and a season total of 139 points, overall position 7th
Hayden - 1 3rd place only and a season total of 132 points, overall position 8th
2012
Rossi - 2 2nd places only, and a season total of 163 points, overall position 6th
Hayden - 0 Podiums and a season total of 122 point, overall position 9th
Capirossi to me is the most tragic story of the last 10 years in not wining a title....
2006 going into Barcelona - Who is at the top of the championship table?
2006 Capirossi was certainly looking like the favorite to win the title than Rossi or Hayden....but that crash at the start Cataluyna race killed his chances even though on the run up to the end of the season he did great....
slight correction for you..
2011 was a little close....7 points difference...
2012 was no where near close...
I will summarize for you
2011
Rossi - 1 3rd place only, and a season total of 139 points, overall position 7th
Hayden - 1 3rd place only and a season total of 132 points, overall position 8th
2012
Rossi - 2 2nd places only, and a season total of 163 points, overall position 6th
Hayden - 0 Podiums and a season total of 122 point, overall position 9th
Capirossi to me is the most tragic story of the last 10 years in not wining a title....
2006 going into Barcelona - Who is at the top of the championship table?
2006 Capirossi was certainly looking like the favorite to win the title than Rossi or Hayden....but that crash at the start Cataluyna race killed his chances even though on the run up to the end of the season he did great....
MigsAngel
By whom and for whom was the 2012 Ducati developed? And did you watch Mugello 2012?
I agree about Capirossi of whom as a long term Ducati fan I was also a fan for most of his career, if not of all his junior class championship wins. It still remains true that he never closed the deal in the premier class though, however unfortunately, whilst Nicky did in 2006. Nicky's championship was as well deserved as many imo, perhaps more so given that the equipment would seem to have been more even that year than most given the number of different riders who won races.
By whom and for whom was the 2012 Ducati developed? And did you watch Mugello 2012?
I agree about Capirossi of whom as a long term Ducati fan I was also a fan for most of his career, if not of all his junior class championship wins. It still remains true that he never closed the deal in the premier class though, however unfortunately, whilst Nicky did in 2006. Nicky's championship was as well deserved as many imo, perhaps more so given that the equipment would seem to have been more even that year than most given the number of different riders who won races.
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God I would love to see Dovi on the Yamaha! He gets better and better as time goes on. Seriously underated in my opinion.
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michaelm
I didn't bring up Mladin's crashes, but he was on a 750 that was seeing it's last year. The guy was just pure hell on a motorcycle, and while Nicky and Ben did beat him to championships he was still by far the better rider, and he made both of them better by giving them a bench mark. If it wasn't for Honda's aspirations of beating Ducati in WSBK with it's own big twin and pouring serious money into the RC51 Nicky would have never seen his AMA championship that year. Everything lined up perfectly for him just like it did in 06, I'm not trying to take anything away from him, but he doesn't have the talent of the aliens.
I knew Ben was never going to be a GP champion because while he did beat Mladin to championships, Mladin could could out ride him and actually had more race wins than Ben in those three seasons and one of those championships would of been his if not for BS technical rules. When it came to the AMA Mladin was always the benchmark, no one could dominate him.
I didn't bring up Mladin's crashes, but he was on a 750 that was seeing it's last year. The guy was just pure hell on a motorcycle, and while Nicky and Ben did beat him to championships he was still by far the better rider, and he made both of them better by giving them a bench mark. If it wasn't for Honda's aspirations of beating Ducati in WSBK with it's own big twin and pouring serious money into the RC51 Nicky would have never seen his AMA championship that year. Everything lined up perfectly for him just like it did in 06, I'm not trying to take anything away from him, but he doesn't have the talent of the aliens.
I knew Ben was never going to be a GP champion because while he did beat Mladin to championships, Mladin could could out ride him and actually had more race wins than Ben in those three seasons and one of those championships would of been his if not for BS technical rules. When it came to the AMA Mladin was always the benchmark, no one could dominate him.
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Mladin was a great motoracer (though I couldn't stand the smug arrogant man personally); however, with all due respect, ur full of .... if u think he didnt get beat straight up by Hayden & Spies. Mladin could have gone on to greatness had he been given/sought the right opportunities (or put his .... on the line trying to get them), instead Spies & Hayden became the world champs. Mladin knew one thing that most gullible naive people havent understood: opportunities post 500 era are decidedly controlled. He often reminded people of the reasons he didnt, in his words 'waste his time' competing on the world stage, and he was absolutely correct. (You should try and understand the acute happenstance that catapulted another ultra talented Aussie into prominence, Stoner was the 3rd in line for that Ducati GP7. Fate intervened, this and the previously unnoticed affect of Bridgestone; however had it not, crystal ball bandits such as urself and others would have declared 'u knew "Crashy" wouldnt have amounted to anything'. It worked out for Stoner by unscripted fortune, not because anybody was convinced he was an "alien". People like u simply cannot understand the reality of the sport's politics and the massive impact this has on who accomplishes what, as u laughably declared in the 'CEV going FIM' thread: if its not in a press release, u dont believe it).
U "knew" Spies wouldn't make it eh? Yeah because after multiple national titles then as a rookie he whipped ... in Wsbk, had two excellent years in GP, then one year it all went wrong, most of this decidely owed to a perfect storm of mechanical failures, bad luck, and not so behind the scenes politics. To make up for it he over rode and caused injury, then the fun and games really started on a Ducati. This of course convinced u and the other naive bots that he just wasnt good enuf. Interesting that it didnt fool the men who pull the strings when VRs results seemed to indicate the same .... u conclude on surveyed results without insight. But ur not the first to fail to understand the lessons of 2011-2012. U must have got ur insight from Jack...the Bean Stalk merchant. Spies' results plummet like VRs did because there were reasons for this, not just because tge rider didnt perform to expectation. ...., and not to mention at very least with VR his bike wasnt on an unpredictable roller coaster of deconstructing at any given race.
When the "alien" was made to complete on subpar equipment u should have noticed something peculiar buddy. So far we have 2011-2012 as a great example, not that u have noticed and made the necessary adjustments to ur conclusions about what makes riders appear like "aliens" vs midpackers. The good news (I suppose) is that u are not alone in ur erroneous conclusions.
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Mladin often reminded us that he didnt remain in GP because there was no point in competing on machines u simply were not going to win on. He didnt want to risk people making conclusions about his abilities and talent as often naive stupid people do when riders dont win. I thought he was too chicken .... to put his .... on the line and try to earn a good seat in GP, he obviously didnt think it was realistic at the begining of his AMA career. We got to see Mladin up close and often here in the States, and I can tell u he is easily one of the truly best riders to never significantly compete on the world stage. For many years I didnt understand or buy his reasons, perhaps myself clouded by my dislike for the man. But he was absolutely right. Btw, he also predicted Spiez would mop up Wsbk.
Dr No
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I don't pay much attention to AMA... What was the deal with Matt and the engine irregularity disqualification?
Oh and not putting his .... on the line for a GP seat? Ha! What, like those successful RedBull rookies that ...... off back to the safety of the US domestic scene?
Oh and not putting his .... on the line for a GP seat? Ha! What, like those successful RedBull rookies that ...... off back to the safety of the US domestic scene?
