Honda

Reading the reports from all of the Honda riders it seems that particularly the satelite bikes were handed over with no set up at all. I don't understand this. Surely the test riders have been riding the bikes and working towards a ball park base set up for the bike. With so little time for testing by race riders why would these settings not be in the satelite bikes for the start of race rider testing? If they were then Honda needs to sack all of their test riders because all 4 satelite riders complained that the bikes were so unbalanced in regards to chassis settings and they had to work very hard to even get in the right ball park.

Can someone shed some light on this?

Maybe Honda are lagging behind they got the most bikes to supply etc
And since they built the pedro special they done jack .....

pay back is a .......

The satellite teams are customers, but they are also competitiors.

Honda sells race machines as a package. Not the setup.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Feb 7 2010, 12:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The satellite teams are customers, but they are also competitiors.

Honda sells race machines as a package. Not the setup.
This accords with what has recently been said about there being no sharing of data in the factory team, whereas ducati and yamaha until now reputedly have freely shared data with their satellite teams as well as within the factory teams.

Yamaha have made their decision from a position of strength but this is further indication of dysfunction at honda in my view as they have been struggling with set-up/development since rossi left. If it is puig's doing he should be went. Dani is good enough that satellite riders would be unlikely to beat him with his set-up anyway.

Honda supply 6 bikes, Ducati 5 and Yamaha 4. I doubt that for an organisation the size of Honda in comparison to Ducati, 1 extra bike is that much of a burden that they can't load up the bikes with TEST rider settings.

As Michael says, perhaps it is really just a symptom of Honda's dysfunction. If MotoGP is about building brand recognition among other things then what value is gained by having 4 of your 6 bikes bringing up the rear?

Perhaps it is a function of Repsol sponsorship? If this is the case then can Honda continue to afford the influence that Repsol has on the operation of their greater MotoGP effort?

In my part of the world it appears to me (I have not read sales data) that the once dominance of Honda badges on the streets is now replaced by a huge number of Yamaha's and more Ducati's than I have ever seen.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Feb 6 2010, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Honda supply 6 bikes, Ducati 5 and Yamaha 4. I doubt that for an organisation the size of Honda in comparison to Ducati, 1 extra bike is that much of a burden that they can't load up the bikes with TEST rider settings.

As Michael says, perhaps it is really just a symptom of Honda's dysfunction. If MotoGP is about building brand recognition among other things then what value is gained by having 4 of your 6 bikes bringing up the rear?

Perhaps it is a function of Repsol sponsorship? If this is the case then can Honda continue to afford the influence that Repsol has on the operation of their greater MotoGP effort?

In my part of the world it appears to me (I have not read sales data) that the once dominance of Honda badges on the streets is now replaced by a huge number of Yamaha's and more Ducati's than I have ever seen.

And I thought I never was going to say this, but: I totally Agree with you TP!

The Honda supplied the identical bikes to the satellite except electronics at Sepang. The bikes were largely modified from the ones the teams test at Valencia. Du Puniet said the bike is 180 degree different. Their test times are not impressive, but they got new bikes at least in pre-season not in the middle of the season, so they can best use their tests to be ready for the season starts.. It is not like they are left alone cold by Honda.

800cc uses lots of electronics, and it seems Honda was bit behind of them compared to Ducati and Yam. That is main reason they just won one title after Rossi left, I think. Even if he had stayed, they would have made similar bike and he would have struggled.

In terms of motorcycle market share, Honda have more than 30% of world share. Maybe you see more Ducati and Yam sport bike on the streets of US or Europe, but in the rest of the world,
they still sell lots more. Yam won almost all category of motorcycle racing last year, but they are not doing well financially. They are in big red. Yam recently asked for early voluntary retirements for hundreds of people. They seconded a few hundred workers to Toyota which is their major shareholder. Ouch No wonder Furusawa san was not present at Sepang test.

I think you have to look at history to realise why this "blank book" data availability occurs in Honda.

Back in Doohan's day nothing came near Honda.

Then came Criville another honda win.

Then an odd suzuki win

Then came Rossi more Honda wins.

Honda got quite arrogant after all this winning and dominating.

To the point where folk only wanted to be on a Honda in GP.

They even had the pull to get the whole 2 stroke dominance killed.

So they got a bit arrogant ..... it wasn't the rider it was the Honda, according to them.

They then decided, in this arrogance, that they would just make the machinery and let others do all the other work. But Repsol allways seems to have stayed the favourites, getting frst developed stuff etc.

Honda sells racing machines in boxes.

Which doesn't really matter cos the data goes with the rider anyway.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Feb 6 2010, 04:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Honda supply 6 bikes, Ducati 5 and Yamaha 4. I doubt that for an organisation the size of Honda in comparison to Ducati, 1 extra bike is that much of a burden that they can't load up the bikes with TEST rider settings.

As Michael says, perhaps it is really just a symptom of Honda's dysfunction. If MotoGP is about building brand recognition among other things then what value is gained by having 4 of your 6 bikes bringing up the rear?

Perhaps it is a function of Repsol sponsorship? If this is the case then can Honda continue to afford the influence that Repsol has on the operation of their greater MotoGP effort?

In my part of the world it appears to me (I have not read sales data) that the once dominance of Honda badges on the streets is now replaced by a huge number of Yamaha's and more Ducati's than I have ever seen.

These satellite bike agreements are hammered out behind closed doors, especially now that GP is in danger of losing world championship status. The satellite bikes achieve a political objective. Right now, Dorna is trying to protect Suzuki. Remember when Dorna demanded an engine lease proposal from the MSMA? The MSMA delivered. Remember when Honda said they would provide factory-spec equipment for an extra fee? Now they claim all of the bikes are completely identical except for the electronics. The sport is inbred.

Tech3 are of course protected from this nonsense b/c Herve Poncharal is IRTA president. Ezy apparently bought him in 2008 when Tech3 magically got factory-spec equipment and Michelin tires after years of neglect.

Yeah, I'm defending Honda. Sad day. I really think they are making their bikes slow pursuant to a closed door negotiations. The agreement probably doesn't require slow bikes explicitly, but the service intervals and such require bikes of lower performance. Rumor has it, Honda didn't even provide base line settings for this season. Are they trying to lose their customers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VHMP01 @ Feb 7 2010, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And I thought I never was going to say this, but: I totally Agree with you TP!


I'll remember this day!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Feb 7 2010, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, I'm defending Honda. Sad day. I really think they are making their bikes slow pursuant to a closed door negotiations. The agreement probably doesn't require slow bikes explicitly, but the service intervals and such require bikes of lower performance. Rumor has it, Honda didn't even provide base line settings for this season. Are they trying to lose their customers.
Not sure what you mean by this but I think you are saying that Honda are using poor satelite bike performance as leverage with Dorna for a political gain? If so can you elaborate?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Feb 7 2010, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Honda supply 6 bikes, Ducati 5 and Yamaha 4. I doubt that for an organisation the size of Honda in comparison to Ducati, 1 extra bike is that much of a burden that they can't load up the bikes with TEST rider settings.

As Michael says, perhaps it is really just a symptom of Honda's dysfunction. If MotoGP is about building brand recognition among other things then what value is gained by having 4 of your 6 bikes bringing up the rear?

Perhaps it is a function of Repsol sponsorship? If this is the case then can Honda continue to afford the influence that Repsol has on the operation of their greater MotoGP effort?

In my part of the world it appears to me (I have not read sales data) that the once dominance of Honda badges on the streets is now replaced by a huge number of Yamaha's and more Ducati's than I have ever seen.

Spot on here.........I'm also in shock at my agreement with you TP, good post.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Feb 7 2010, 06:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>These satellite bike agreements are hammered out behind closed doors, especially now that GP is in danger of losing world championship status. The satellite bikes achieve a political objective. Right now, Dorna is trying to protect Suzuki. Remember when Dorna demanded an engine lease proposal from the MSMA? The MSMA delivered. Remember when Honda said they would provide factory-spec equipment for an extra fee? Now they claim all of the bikes are completely identical except for the electronics. The sport is inbred.

Tech3 are of course protected from this nonsense b/c Herve Poncharal is IRTA president. Ezy apparently bought him in 2008 when Tech3 magically got factory-spec equipment and Michelin tires after years of neglect.

Yeah, I'm defending Honda. Sad day. I really think they are making their bikes slow pursuant to a closed door negotiations. The agreement probably doesn't require slow bikes explicitly, but the service intervals and such require bikes of lower performance. Rumor has it, Honda didn't even provide base line settings for this season. Are they trying to lose their customers.
Recent discussion is that at least one manufacturer wants to have a dual 800/1000 formula when the new rules come in. I am wondering which one ( or ones); I don't dismiss the possibility that despite by their (or even most) standards spectacular lack of success, as the reputed instigators of the 800 bikes honda may just be pig-headed enough to persist.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (moto3 @ Feb 6 2010, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The Honda supplied the identical bikes to the satellite except electronics at Sepang. The bikes were largely modified from the ones the teams test at Valencia. Du Puniet said the bike is 180 degree different. Their test times are not impressive, but they got new bikes at least in pre-season not in the middle of the season, so they can best use their tests to be ready for the season starts.. It is not like they are left alone cold by Honda.

800cc uses lots of electronics, and it seems Honda was bit behind of them compared to Ducati and Yam. That is main reason they just won one title after Rossi left, I think. Even if he had stayed, they would have made similar bike and he would have struggled.

In terms of motorcycle market share, Honda have more than 30% of world share. Maybe you see more Ducati and Yam sport bike on the streets of US or Europe, but in the rest of the world,
they still sell lots more. Yam won almost all category of motorcycle racing last year, but they are not doing well financially. They are in big red. Yam recently asked for early voluntary retirements for hundreds of people. They seconded a few hundred workers to Toyota which is their major shareholder. Ouch No wonder Furusawa san was not present at Sepang test.

I can tell you that when I bought my Honda CBR600 F4 ten years ago, there were many more sport and touring Hondas than any other riding around the streets in Mexico. Today you barely see them compared to, believe it or not, Suzukis because there are the cheapest, and also a lot of Yamahas. Problem in Mexico is that most Japanese Sports and Super-Sports; 600cc sell for 10,000 Euros, and 1000cc sell for 21,000 Euros, which makes Super-Sports Ducatis at 24,000 Euros and higher totally unworthy for those prices. Add to this that cars have been lowering prices a lot, average wage is a bit sad, so not many people invest in Bikes, ridiculous in this Earth caring times!

i think that when Pedrosa gives it some again and doesnt ride within himself making sure he starts the season fit, combinaed with Marco Melandri back on argubally the strongest satillete bike could cause a few upsets. I think that Honda need to have upper thier game because last year they were not good enough and if they do loose Pedrosa they wont be able to attrack anybody to replace him if the continue in the same way

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Feb 7 2010, 12:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'll remember this day!!!


Not sure what you mean by this but I think you are saying that Honda are using poor satelite bike performance as leverage with Dorna for a political gain? If so can you elaborate?

I'm trying to say that the satellite bike agreements are hammered out behind closed doors to meet certain political objectives within the sport. Right now, Dorna are concerned with lowering costs and protecting Suzuki.

Both of these political objectives would necessitate slower satellite bikes. The performance is probably controlled with the lease price and the service intervals that Dorna demands. Dorna can make these demands b/c they pay IRTA to lease the bikes.

We certainly have evidence of Honda fouling things up (Qatar 2008), but I think the lack of baseline settings and all of the political wrangling in regards to satellite bikes and engine leasing programs indicates that Honda may not be culpable this time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Feb 7 2010, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm trying to say that the satellite bike agreements are hammered out behind closed doors to meet certain political objectives within the sport. Right now, Dorna are concerned with lowering costs and protecting Suzuki.

Both of these political objectives would necessitate slower satellite bikes. The performance is probably controlled with the lease price and the service intervals that Dorna demands. Dorna can make these demands b/c they pay IRTA to lease the bikes.

We certainly have evidence of Honda fouling things up (Qatar 2008), but I think the lack of baseline settings and all of the political wrangling in regards to satellite bikes and engine leasing programs indicates that Honda may not be culpable this time.
I'd like to think that MotoGP is all about racing and competition, but unfortunately can't dismiss your argument out of hand.  Give Zook some decent results early in the season...


If the satellite bike truly were delivered w/o an instruction manual, I'd expect the impacted teams to band together and whip up a joint test program, splitting the duties among their riders.

Is there any way we can blame Alberto for this mess? 

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Geonerd @ Feb 7 2010, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'd like to think that MotoGP is all about racing and competition, but unfortunately can't dismiss your argument out of hand.  Give Zook some decent results early in the season...


If the satellite bike truly were delivered w/o an instruction manual, I'd expect the impacted teams to band together and whip up a joint test program, splitting the duties among their riders.

Is there any way we can blame Alberto for this mess? 

 

It is about racing, but everyone has got their own ideas about how things should run. The satellite bike program is basically dreamed up by Dorna and the MSMA b/c one of them pays and the other one builds. Considering how close they are to losing world championship status, they certainly aren't taking a laissez-faire approach.

Neither Dorna nor the MSMA probably care about satellite bikes, they are just trying to contain costs and keep the grid size at 17. It is about racing, but it's not about winning. Things are supposed to change when the 1000s finally arrive.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Geonerd @ Feb 7 2010, 07:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Is there any way we can blame Alberto for this mess? 

 

we can blame Alberto for everything wrong in motogp in my opinion, somehow its his fault that we stupidly went to 800s, and the solo tyre compound, and the testing restrictions!

heck can even blame him for the problems in the world, war, starvation, his fault somehow!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rowles @ Feb 7 2010, 08:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i think that when Pedrosa gives it some again and doesnt ride within himself making sure he starts the season fit, combinaed with Marco Melandri back on argubally the strongest satillete bike could cause a few upsets. I think that Honda need to have upper thier game because last year they were not good enough and if they do loose Pedrosa they wont be able to attrack anybody to replace him if the continue in the same way

Pedrosa already mention 'Not being 100% fit':

http://www.marca.com/2010/02/05/motor/mund...1265383587.html

"Ayer tardé más tiempo en coger el ritmo sobre la moto porque era el primer día, pero hoy ha ido mucho mejor, si bien no estoy al ciento por ciento todavía", indicó Pedrosa, quien en diciembre se sometió a una intervención quirúrgica para extraerle un tornillo...

Meaning that Pedrosa admits not being 100% and that he had an operation to get a screw out, in December. Must have been Honda in compliance to 6 engine rule for Asimo too. I am sorry, could not help it!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rowles @ Feb 7 2010, 02:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>we can blame Alberto for everything wrong in motogp in my opinion, somehow its his fault that we stupidly went to 800s, and the solo tyre compound, and the testing restrictions!

heck can even blame him for the problems in the world, war, starvation, his fault somehow!

Oh come on, give Espeleta some credit for stupidity too!