Honda RCV1000R

My 2 cents: I'm sure the production racer will be adequate, but there is no way it will be able to consistently run with the rcv or m1, factory or sattelite (rider ability kept equal). Even if Honda were capable of building a production racer that could run with the prototypes, they wouldn't because it would make no sense for them. HRC are not exactly known for letting their customer bikes run at their maximum, especially not if they start challenging the works bikes.


 


As long as there are still 'real' prototypes running in motogp, this discussion, however interesting, seems to me to be a bit pointless.

stiefel

3651391382511678

My 2 cents: I'm sure the production racer will be adequate, but there is no way it will be able to consistently run with the rcv or m1, factory or sattelite (rider ability kept equal). Even if Honda were capable of building a production racer that could run with the prototypes, they wouldn't because it would make no sense for them. HRC are not exactly known for letting their customer bikes run at their maximum, especially not if they start challenging the works bikes.

 

As long as there are still 'real' prototypes running in motogp, this discussion, however interesting, seems to me to be a bit pointless.

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Good one, StIEfel.

If these things really are test beds for the next generation of MotoGp bikes, then I predict we'll also see favoured teams getting 'the good stuff' as the rules close in.

But this .... just reminds me of why I'm getting jack of this class. Endless rules-forced iterations of technically brilliant bikes...that bore me.

kiddyK

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With the loss of a litre of fuel, those M1s will be gasping.

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100% Correct, the M1 concept is very old now, the engine needs a complete rethink, The drop in fuel is going to hit Yamaha the hardest.

stiefel

3651391382511678

My 2 cents: I'm sure the production racer will be adequate, but there is no way it will be able to consistently run with the rcv or m1, factory or sattelite (rider ability kept equal). Even if Honda were capable of building a production racer that could run with the prototypes, they wouldn't because it would make no sense for them. HRC are not exactly known for letting their customer bikes run at their maximum, especially not if they start challenging the works bikes.


 


As long as there are still 'real' prototypes running in motogp, this discussion, however interesting, seems to me to be a bit pointless.

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This conversation is relevant, as this bike is competitive, your view regarding the sat Hondas is wrong, Alvaro and Stefan often have equal or better top speeds than Danny and Mark, the bikes were identical (apart from the suspension) at the beginning of the season, the support is not as good granted but they are 2013 spec bikes, unlike satellite Yamaha's, the difference at Honda is the riders. 


 


I believe Nicky is a faster rider than Alvaro, Stefan, and Dovi, and his world title backs this up to a degree. America Honda are Bank rolling his new ride to a large extent, they are investing in their own sales and publicity, before they hand over the check they would have asked for, and received confirmation that this was a solid investment, there is no way they would throw millions in the pot for Nicky to ride around on a eighth place bike, This would only bring bad publicity for all involved, They could use that advertising budget in a far more constructive way, and in the current financial climate, they will not put this amount in the pot for the hell of it.

 <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote1382516878

365146" data-author="the-insider

This conversation is relevant, as this bike is competitive, your view regarding the sat Hondas is wrong, Alvaro and Stefan often have equal or better top speeds than Danny and Mark, the bikes were identical (apart from the suspension) at the beginning of the season, the support is not as good granted but they are 2013 spec bikes, unlike satellite Yamaha's, the difference at Honda is the riders.

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Kenny Roberts Jr., Casey Stoner and pretty much every rider that has been on a slow white Honda would probably disagree with you, although not all would do so publicly. Every Ducati rider would probably tell you that topspeeds are not valid measures of a bike's competitiveness. You can pontificate all you like but unless you can convince me why HRC would have sufficient incentives to have their production racer beating their prototypes, which is unlikely, I'll stand by my points.

the-insider

3651461382516878

This conversation is relevant, as this bike is competitive, your view regarding the sat Hondas is wrong, Alvaro and Stefan often have equal or better top speeds than Danny and Mark, the bikes were identical (apart from the suspension) at the beginning of the season, the support is not as good granted but they are 2013 spec bikes, unlike satellite Yamaha's, the difference at Honda is the riders. 


 


I believe Nicky is a faster rider than Alvaro, Stefan, and Dovi, and his world title backs this up to a degree. America Honda are Bank rolling his new ride to a large extent, they are investing in their own sales and publicity, before they hand over the check they would have asked for, and received confirmation that this was a solid investment, there is no way they would throw millions in the pot for Nicky to ride around on a eighth place bike, This would only bring bad publicity for all involved, They could use that advertising budget in a far more constructive way, and in the current financial climate, they will not put this amount in the pot for the hell of it.

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Somewhere out there in a suburb of Los Angeles a certain Mexican is lying back with a Tecate in one hand and rubbing one out with the other.

the-insider

3651461382516878

I believe Nicky is a faster rider than Alvaro, Stefan, and Dovi, and his world title backs this up to a degree. America Honda are Bank rolling his new ride to a large extent, they are investing in their own sales and publicity, before they hand over the check they would have asked for, and received confirmation that this was a solid investment, there is no way they would throw millions in the pot for Nicky to ride around on a eighth place bike, This would only bring bad publicity for all involved, They could use that advertising budget in a far more constructive way, and in the current financial climate, they will not put this amount in the pot for the hell of it.

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Keshav

3651511382527966

Somewhere out there in a suburb of Los Angeles a certain Mexican is lying back with a Tecate in one hand and rubbing one out with the other.

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I hope this is not some cruel joke on me to get me all pumped for next year only for the-exciter to reveal he was yanking our chain, perhaps turning out he is the janitor at HRC and knows .... all about the project.  We'll know soon enough, Valencia is not far away.  My bday is in November, at which time I'll know if it'll be a good one.  I hope the-exciter makes it here that long, because if Nicky and Redding circulate behind Bradley and anywhere near Cal or Dovi, he''ll have lots of spinning to do.  (At which point he will be poached by Kropo to help on his site).  


 


 
stiefel

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Kenny Roberts Jr., Casey Stoner and pretty much every rider that has been on a slow white Honda would probably disagree with you, although not all would do so publicly. Every Ducati rider would probably tell you that topspeeds are not valid measures of a bike's competitiveness. You can pontificate all you like but unless you can convince me why HRC would have sufficient incentives to have their production racer beating their prototypes, which is unlikely, I'll stand by my points.

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Good post Stef.  KRjr was very clear when he interviewed AFTER he retired that Honda were all about managed hierarchy of results by imposing performance limits on their non-factory affiliates.  That should tells us a bit of the expectations for their riders while employed (Biaggi, VR).  Btw, its not that different with the other factories, Barros bike never was quite the same after he finished ahead of Casey once.  And he said as much AFTER he retired too.

Jumkie

3652021382555238

I hope this is not some cruel joke on me to get me all pumped for next year only for the-exciter to reveal he was yanking our chain, perhaps turning out he is the janitor at HRC and knows .... all about the project.  We'll know soon enough, Valencia is not far away.  My bday is in November, at which time I'll know if it'll be a good one.  I hope the-exciter makes it here that long, because if Nicky and Redding circulate behind Bradley and anywhere near Cal or Dovi, he''ll have lots of spinning to do.  (At which point he will be poached by Kropo to help on his site).  


 


 


 


Good post Stef.  KRjr was very clear when he interviewed AFTER he retired that Honda were all about managed hierarchy of results by imposing performance limits on their non-factory affiliates.  That should tells us a bit of the expectations for their riders while employed (Biaggi, VR).  Btw, its not that different with the other factories, Barros bike never was quite the same after he finished ahead of Casey once.  And he said as much AFTER he retired too.

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Stoner put most of it down to his third rate Michelin tyres, and to LCR not allowing him to use his own settings on the bike/changing them between practice and race day, and actually said in the first part of the year he had a similar bike to the factory guys. Melandri and Elias winning races would seem to support this, Elias winning in a race for which he got  tyres competitive with the usual front-runners of course. I tend to think Stoner's bike was less competitive in the second half of the year, whether from lack of upgrades or other factors.


 


That was the 990 formula, when computer technicians didn't have such a role in bike set-up, and factory gearboxes weren't a million dollars each, and I am extremely sceptical now about equivalence between factory and satellite Hondas, if only on the ECU/ECU programming side of things. Dorna seems  to think so as well, hence the push for a standard ECU. If the insider is close enough to the notoriously secretive HRC factory team, he may well be better informed than we are though.


 


In the 500 formula it was said, perhaps apocryphally that for one of Doohan's titles  there were  supposed  to be 5 identical Hondas on the grid, but even if this is true that was before  the cost structure of the sport exploded.

"Competitive" is a Weasel Word.

stiefel

3651391382511678

My 2 cents: I'm sure the production racer will be adequate, but there is no way it will be able to consistently run with the rcv or m1, factory or sattelite (rider ability kept equal). Even if Honda were capable of building a production racer that could run with the prototypes, they wouldn't because it would make no sense for them. HRC are not exactly known for letting their customer bikes run at their maximum, especially not if they start challenging the works bikes.


 


As long as there are still 'real' prototypes running in motogp, this discussion, however interesting, seems to me to be a bit pointless.

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There's no 'letting' or 'not letting' - they are selling a turnkey bike and the new owner is free to do with it what they will. That's what distinguishes it from an MSMA entry - no HRC staff. It has to be good enough and competitive enough to sell, otherwise the privateer teams are just pissing their money away. And HRC has deeeep pockets - they have the ability in their factory to take five or so chassis to a track, just to play with. No privateer will be able to compete with that.


 


HRC will rely on the quality of their engineers and their riders to stay at the front. If a privateer manages to pass Dani, it's probably a good indication that his time has come - but I can't see it happening.

kiddyK

3653251382606269

There's no 'letting' or 'not letting' - they are selling a turnkey bike and the new owner is free to do with it what they will. That's what distinguishes it from an MSMA entry - no HRC staff. It has to be good enough and competitive enough to sell, otherwise the privateer teams are just pissing their money away. And HRC has deeeep pockets - they have the ability in their factory to take five or so chassis to a track, just to play with. No privateer will be able to compete with that.


 


HRC will rely on the quality of their engineers and their riders to stay at the front. If a privateer manages to pass Dani, it's probably a good indication that his time has come - but I can't see it happening.

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I don't think it matters much whether they have their engineers in the pits to drop the rev limit a bit if the thing get's too fast, or whether they sell a machine that simply won't be able to match the RCV from the start. The result would be the same. HRC, at the moment at least, are in motogp primarily to race fuel efficient high-tech prototypes. They invest a great deal of resources into being able to do this successfully.I'm pretty certain that the combined financial interests of all stakeholders in the production bike will not outweigh the resource investment of HRC into their prototype bike. So, I think they will not 'let' the production racer outperform their prototype and that yes, they do sufficient means to insure this, no matter how much the owners tinker with it. 


 


What I do consider a possibility is that the production racer format could become a preferred alternative to providing a sattelite bike (and not just for Honda). In that case I suspect you will see 2 things happening: 1) a further increase of the performance gap between factory and sattelite machines, or at least stabiliazation at the current level 2) production racers that are able to run with the sattelite bikes.


 


I don't think anyone buying the production racer is under the illusion that they will get a motorcycle that is able to regularly contest for a podium. Think about it, companies like BMW and Aprillia cannot even do it independently of Honda and Yamaha because of the massive costs associated with developing winning gp bike, why would anyone expect Honda or Yamaha to help a privateer do it for a fraction of that cost.  

Jumkie

3652021382555238

I hope this is not some cruel joke on me to get me all pumped for next year only for the-exciter to reveal he was yanking our chain, perhaps turning out he is the janitor at HRC and knows .... all about the project.  We'll know soon enough, Valencia is not far away.  My bday is in November, at which time I'll know if it'll be a good one.  I hope the-exciter makes it here that long, because if Nicky and Redding circulate behind Bradley and anywhere near Cal or Dovi, he''ll have lots of spinning to do.  (At which point he will be poached by Kropo to help on his site). 

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As I said in post 18...
Mick D

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Meh... time will tell not your internet credentials.

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Mick D

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As I said in post 18...

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So nothing of any substance to post, just another dig at my credentials, I cant wait to revisit these posts after the first race of 2014.

Jumkie

3652021382555238

I hope this is not some cruel joke on me to get me all pumped for next year only for the-exciter to reveal he was yanking our chain, perhaps turning out he is the janitor at HRC and knows .... all about the project.  We'll know soon enough, Valencia is not far away.  My bday is in November, at which time I'll know if it'll be a good one.  I hope the-exciter makes it here that long, because if Nicky and Redding circulate behind Bradley and anywhere near Cal or Dovi, he''ll have lots of spinning to do.  (At which point he will be poached by Kropo to help on his site).  


 


 


 


Good post Stef.  KRjr was very clear when he interviewed AFTER he retired that Honda were all about managed hierarchy of results by imposing performance limits on their non-factory affiliates.  That should tells us a bit of the expectations for their riders while employed (Biaggi, VR).  Btw, its not that different with the other factories, Barros bike never was quite the same after he finished ahead of Casey once.  And he said as much AFTER he retired too.

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I think even the HRC janitor would have more insight than some who have contributed on here.  Nicky may be only running with Bradley in November, but that alone would show the potential of what is coming next year, as its your birthday, get an extra bottle of Krug in to celebrate Nicky's knew found pace, no spinning by me will be needed. 


 


As for KRs time, this was a long time ago, a time of massive sponsors and a glut of bikes, there is no money left, the series will be based on bikes sold to teams, and not factories putting zillions in, The Repsol deal only covers so much, Yamaha don't even have that, it has become untenable,  even when it is based on "works" bikes sold to teams, Honda will still want to dominate, that is just one reason why this bike is so good. 

Yep, Money Talks and ........ Walks as they say.


 


There is no way that Honda will not build a bike that at the very least, CAN be competitive as to do so would be a form of financial suicide (within mild terms mind).


 


To me, if Honda promise something, charge a few million to teams, but then fail to deliver there will be numerous sponsors, riders and team owners mighty pissed off and all of these have money that they will take elsewhere. No, Honda will give all of these teams a bike that provides that 'carrot on a stick' and shows immense promise, but just as they should it will be up to the teams and riders to see if the donkey can get that carrot.


 


IMO, as much as people ridicule Honda, at least they are offering these bikes up and just by that aspect alone it is doubtful that they will be poor quality or non-competitive.


 


Probably not a popular opinion but there are very few companies who will put the sheer volume of dollars Honda have into the production racer knowing that it will bring bad ju-ju to their company but NOT being what they promise

I'm still wondering....what, aside from how good WSS springs are, have you told us about this bike?

For example; how many frames will Repsol Honda bring to the table in 14 and how might they compare to the paid-for single, one off frame of the proddy? What input had been provided by BS concerning tyres?

I wrote earlier that this might well be a toe in the water exercise for where the rules might go.

This post is probably needlessly antagonistic, but it's late and I started at 6.

Gaz

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Yep, Money Talks and ........ Walks as they say.


 


There is no way that Honda will not build a bike that at the very least, CAN be competitive as to do so would be a form of financial suicide (within mild terms mind).


 


To me, if Honda promise something, charge a few million to teams, but then fail to deliver there will be numerous sponsors, riders and team owners mighty pissed off and all of these have money that they will take elsewhere. No, Honda will give all of these teams a bike that provides that 'carrot on a stick' and shows immense promise, but just as they should it will be up to the teams and riders to see if the donkey can get that carrot.


 


IMO, as much as people ridicule Honda, at least they are offering these bikes up and just by that aspect alone it is doubtful that they will be poor quality or non-competitive.


 


Probably not a popular opinion but there are very few companies who will put the sheer volume of dollars Honda have into the production racer knowing that it will bring bad ju-ju to their company but NOT being what they promise

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This man sees the bigger picture, well done.

Define "competitive", please.

Where exactly will it be amongst the other bikes, insider?

Dr No

3653511382612907

I'm still wondering....what, aside from how good WSS springs are, have you told us about this bike?

For example; how many frames will Repsol Honda bring to the table in 14 and how might they compare to the paid-for single, one off frame of the proddy? What input had been provided by BS concerning tyres?

I wrote earlier that this might well be a toe in the water exercise for where the rules might go.

This post is probably needlessly antagonistic, but it's late and I started at 6.

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It is the SAME bike as this years, it does not need pneumatic valves as the rev ceiling will not climb, Dorna wanted to set an electronic rev limit, Honda said no, the engine architecture and fuel limits have done this anyway, the spec ECU has been used on this bike and was used by Casey, It was also funning to the new fuel regs. the test results were very close to full factory times, they needed to get his input as test riders, as good as they are, are not Casey, the data gathered will only make this bike better.


As this is a "production version" a full spares platform has been created, frames included. I don't know how much they will cost.


It has been developed using this years tyres. 


This is no toe in the water exercise.

FFS guys, he works for a different manufacturer in a different form of motorsport. You are asking him to give the oracle, but all he can do is to hazard a guess. He doesn't have 'the answers'. Although I do find his informed and researched speculation a lot more compelling than a lot of the ........ written on here.


 


Why don't we wait a couple of weeks, then we'll know for sure.