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michaelm · May 10, 2016

moto vudu said:
Rossi wasn't justified in his decision to run MM wide, that's why he was punished. I just don't buy the whole "MM is completely innocent and was only racing argument". MM has changed his riding style so far this year, but last year (until Valencia) he was still Murder Mac. To say he has never deliberately taken another rider out is a stretch. He had no issues putting his bike into situations where he knew contact would be highly likely. He was perfectly ok with taking that level of risk.

I said in another thread that some people would've been more accepting if when Rossi lost his cool he made it look like a racing incident. He could've made an extreme late braking move into turn 9 and used MM's bike as berm then claim it was an accident. Even though doing such a move would've been MORE dangerous than slowing and pulling MM off line. Marc wasn't put into a position where crashing was the only option.

Stuff and nonsense. Now you are just making things up, and attempting to argue moral equivalence based on hypothetical situations which really is quite desperate. If you want to use analogies, as I said at the time this defence of Rossi's action in the Sepang incident is equivalent to arguing that the victim of a shooting is the one culpable because they could have ducked. What MM could or could not have done in response to an a non-racing move admitted by Rossi and found to be illegal is irrelevant and not in Rossi's control and hence relieves him of no culpability; sure there are other more dangerous illegal moves he could also have pulled, but that hardly excuses him either.

You continue to attempt to defend the indefensible. Your opponents including me have admittedly refused to let it go, and Rossi himself at least is getting on with racing now rather than continuing to incite his supporters with press statements, but while the booing continues with his tacit approval, cheering of riders crashing out continues, and this narrative about late season 2015 continues to be put forward I for one am happy to keep opposing same.

JPSLotus · May 10, 2016

moto vudu said:
So you feel MM turned down his level of aggression for the 2nd half of 2015? Wow

He took a vastly different approach to the second half, and if you are truly willing to argue he was Murder Mac till Valencia, you didn't watch too much of the racing.

Jumkie · May 10, 2016

Jumkie said:
"Pushed to the same degree?" How was Rossi "pushed" to meltdown? Please elaborate. How was Rossi 'provoked?

As I recall, Zidane and Mazzaradi (can't remember how to spell his name) had been talking .... to 'eachother' during the game. Zidane claimed the Italian insulted his mother or some ...., right? Hahaha, I'm laughing just at the absurdity of it. I can't remember what Mazzaradi claimed, something about verbal insults too. Words to physical violence. That is the connection often made to justify it.

Yesterday I saw a clip of a Jamaican international named Romeo Parks literally kick a guy in the back. This wasn't during play. The ref had just ejected both players. As one of the guys was walking off the pitch, the Parks surprised attacked him with an open studs kick to the spine. The team of the perpetrator immediately terminated his contract! They fired the guy on the spot. I'm sure he will be subject to a lengthy ban. Contrast this to Rossi. Not only was he not black flagged, but his employer defended the violent act!

Update: this mothafucker was suspended for the rest of the season, which ends in October, 6 months. Kick a guy in the back, get banned half a year. Cowardly attack a rider with your motorcycle causing him to crash on a hot track, solidify hero status. Like the Indian story, the victim is vilified and shamed publicly. The world has gone mad.

moto vudu · May 10, 2016

Jumkie said:
Update: this mothafucker was suspended for the rest of the season, which ends in October, 6 months. Kick a guy in the back, get banned half a year. Cowardly attack a rider with your motorcycle causing him to crash on a hot track, solidify hero status. Like the Indian story, the victim is vilified and shamed publicly. The world has gone mad.

So VR slowing and running MM wide is on the same level as kicking a man in the back.

A Beautiful Planet is now showing in IMAX theaters in 3D! It's rated G so there shouldn't be any scenes that disturb you so much you cry about it for 6 months and compare it with crimes against humanity.

BarryMachine · May 11, 2016

moto vudu said:
So VR slowing and running MM wide is on the same level as kicking a man in the back.

A Beautiful Planet is now showing in IMAX theaters in 3D! It's rated G so there shouldn't be any scenes that disturb you so much you cry about it for 6 months and compare it with crimes against humanity.

On a race bike its way worse dumbarse.

#22 · May 11, 2016

Arrabbiata1 said:
Back to Sepang, you're right Daniboy...it has been debated to death. From an objective standpoint and I've maintained this all along, all you have to consider is the outrage had the 'boot been on the other foot' so to speak...what if Marquez had done this to Rossi? or God forbid, Stoner at Laguna in 2008? So thousands of Rossi fans the world over would be condemning Valentino for 'turning in when forced wide and making contact' and exonerating Casey or Marc in the process?

Debate over.

This is the crux of it. Rossi is right all the time to his rabid fanbase because he is Rossi. Like you Arrab, I try and be impartial as much as I can and always pose the question, as you have done, is what if had been the other way around, would you feel the same?

For me, had Marquez done that to Rossi I'd be calling for his head on a stick. As I did when Marquez crashed under yellow flag conditions in warmup Silverstone 2013. I stated then that there was absolutely no excuse for that and he should have had a one race ban, something I still feel to this day. But of course I'm apparently just a Rossi hater.

Daniboy said:
He didn't punt him off at 200 mph though, and there was no real injury incurred as the speed was slow.

That's completely irrelevant. Turn 11 is a similar corner, with similar speeds to turn 14 where the incident happened and Marco Simoncelli was killed in a similar low speed incident at Turn 11. Riders can die at 40mph too.

moto vudu said:
Rossi slowing down and pulling MM off line when there wasn't another rider anywhere near the two of them was safer than the numerous hard passes they had just put on each other moments before. MM wasn't doing anything against the rules, but he wasn't riding like some sort of safety ambassador as some of you are implying. He was fired up and seeing some red mist himself. He was in full "Murder Mac" mode, it's just that Rossi struck first before MM could ready his torpedo.

Moto, Have you ever raced or done a trackday? As has been said before. Ignore your Rossi bias for a moment and consider 2 things.

1. Had this been the other way around, would you be defending Marquez over Rossi?
2. If you were riding on a trackday/race and a rider squeezed you out like Rossi did to Marquez, would you consider that acceptable?

moto vudu said:
Right, and Rossi has rode cleaner than Marquez has on a plethora of occasions. MM's overtaking wasn't common because there's reason to believe his motives were revenge on Rossi for his comments instead of simply racing for position.

So if he wasn't racing for position, what was he doing? Trying to interfere with his race pace and rhythm? Tell me, what are your thoughts on Laguna Seca 2008 then? When Rossi messed with Stoners race pace and rhythm to rattle him?

Daniboy said:
That video I posted of MM v JL is more dangerous than any of the passes mentioned by Jums for sure!

michaelm said:
I don't think either move is defensible, the problem for your side of the argument is that the 2005 move set a precedent for the 2013 move, or for getting away with it anyway.

/\ This. As JPS and I have discussed, .... like that is fine, but it sets a precedent. Once a precedent is set you can't moan if what you dished out is dished back on you.

moto vudu said:
So VR slowing and running MM wide is on the same level as kicking a man in the back.

Nice GIF!

BarryMachine · May 11, 2016

Daniboy said:
There was no kick. The video does show the use of another rider as a berm to make the corner however ! Much more dangerous, maybe even as much as me seeing as I'm 'a feeble minded dangerous ......' eh mate? Lol jk

Go waste more of you time, its real good for your brain.

Richy56 · May 11, 2016

All I can say I have been watching most forms of road racing since 1997 be it Wsbk, bsb, motogp, club racing in the uk, which may not be as long as most but last years Sepang incident" was the shittest thing I've ever seen In a bike race.

Not that he'll care but I lost all respect for Rossi that weekend in Sepang. It's the first time watching a bike race I actually couldn't believe my eyes. Anyone who tries to defend him is blind to it.

danski · May 11, 2016

BarryMachine said:
Daniboy said:

There was no kick. The video does show the use of another rider as a berm to make the corner however ! Much more dangerous, maybe even as much as me seeing as I'm 'a feeble minded dangerous ......' eh mate? Lol jk

Go waste more of you time, its real good for your brain.

Click to expand...

Yes I can see it's had a great effect on yours as you couldn't even do the quote right, keep going I do enjoy your posts they bring a smile to my face!

moto vudu · May 11, 2016

BarryMachine said:
On a race bike its way worse dumbarse.

The VR vs MM incident would only be somewhat equivalent to that soccer kick if Romeo Parks simply stuck his leg straight out and the other player looked at his leg then ran into it falling down afterward.

#22 said:
Moto, Have you ever raced or done a trackday? As has been said before. Ignore your Rossi bias for a moment and consider 2 things.

1. Had this been the other way around, would you be defending Marquez over Rossi?
2. If you were riding on a trackday/race and a rider squeezed you out like Rossi did to Marquez, would you consider that acceptable?

1. If Rossi ever decides to turn his bike into Marquez, I think Rossi he will have to live with the consequences. Rossi's decision to run MM to the edge of the track was stupid, that's how I know it was done out of pure emotion. Rossi wasn't trying to cause MM to crash, but even if MM waited until Rossi turned in he would've still been right behind Rossi and they would've kept at it until something else happened. Rossi never would've put enough space between himself and MM simply by running him to the edge.

2. Yes, I've done trackdays. It doesn't matter if I consider being ran to the edge of the track acceptable (I'd confront the rider in the pits). You still have to make a decision on how to deal with action. You might consider it unacceptable if someone wont slow down to allow you to merge onto the highway, but if you ram him/her with your vehicle you'll have consequences to deal with.

#22 · May 11, 2016

So in essense, you agree that what Rossi did was wrong and he was right to be punished. Seems reasonable.

moto vudu · May 11, 2016

#22 said:
So in essense, you agree that what Rossi did was wrong and he was right to be punished. Seems reasonable.

Sure, I have never stated that I didn't feel like Rossi should've received a penalty.

JPSLotus · May 11, 2016

moto vudu said:
The VR vs MM incident would only be somewhat equivalent to that soccer kick if Romeo Parks simply stuck his leg straight out and the other player looked at his leg then ran into it falling down afterward.

1. If Rossi ever decides to turn his bike into Marquez, I think Rossi he will have to live with the consequences. Rossi's decision to run MM to the edge of the track was stupid, that's how I know it was done out of pure emotion. Rossi wasn't trying to cause MM to crash, but even if MM waited until Rossi turned in he would've still been right behind Rossi and they would've kept at it until something else happened. Rossi never would've put enough space between himself and MM simply by running him to the edge.

2. Yes, I've done trackdays. It doesn't matter if I consider being ran to the edge of the track acceptable (I'd confront the rider in the pits). You still have to make a decision on how to deal with action. You might consider it unacceptable if someone wont slow down to allow you to merge onto the highway, but if you ram him/her with your vehicle you'll have consequences to deal with.

Here's the problem with the track day comparison. Being run wide there while not good, is being done in a completely different environment.

Being run wide on a 250HP MotoGP machine at the top level of motorcycle racing during a grand prix, with the amount of pressure involved on the riders, all while riding on the limit, bears no similarity. A hesitation can be enough to cost precious tenths of a second to a rider fighting for the best possible position. Since what Rossi did that day has never been seen before in any grand prix, to act like making a decision is simple. Think about this, you're battling a rider tooth and nail on the ragged edge, and then out of nowhere he starts slowing down, and doesn't even attempt to turn-in and is pushing you out of the way...again a move NEVER seen before, and you really think what you might do at a track day is applicable?

You're speaking from the luxurious couch known as hindsight. It all seems so simple! Just don't do anything! Confront afterwards! What if you manage to get out of that situation and then Rossi starts trying to run you wide at every turn because he is raging beneath the helmet over some perceived injustice, which is really him creating a red herring for why he is about to lose the world championship.

Many people out there have continued to claim MM could have gotten out of that situation easily. Yet everyone who claims that has never ridden motorcycles at that level, or know what is involved to ride a motorcycle at that level. If you are in the "zone" as many high level athletes find themselves in during intense competition, you do not see things the way observers do. You go to another place altogether that most fans cannot ever understand.

povol · May 11, 2016

moto vudu said:
The VR vs MM incident would only be somewhat equivalent to that soccer kick if Romeo Parks simply stuck his leg straight out and the other player looked at his leg then ran into it falling down afterward.

1. If Rossi ever decides to turn his bike into Marquez, I think Rossi he will have to live with the consequences. Rossi's decision to run MM to the edge of the track was stupid, that's how I know it was done out of pure emotion. Rossi wasn't trying to cause MM to crash, but even if MM waited until Rossi turned in he would've still been right behind Rossi and they would've kept at it until something else happened. Rossi never would've put enough space between himself and MM simply by running him to the edge.

2. Yes, I've done trackdays. It doesn't matter if I consider being ran to the edge of the track acceptable (I'd confront the rider in the pits). You still have to make a decision on how to deal with action. You might consider it unacceptable if someone wont slow down to allow you to merge onto the highway, but if you ram him/her with your vehicle you'll have consequences to deal with.

Which is exactly why i contend that he was trying to wreck him or at least run him completely off track. What did he have to gain by running himself and Marquez off line if it wasnt going to result in separating himself from his problem. Just because Rossi says he wasnt trying to crash Marquez doesnt make it true.

moto vudu · May 11, 2016

JPSLotus said:
Here's the problem with the track day comparison. Being run wide there while not good, is being done in a completely different environment.

Being run wide on a 250HP MotoGP machine at the top level of motorcycle racing during a grand prix, with the amount of pressure involved on the riders, all while riding on the limit, bears no similarity. A hesitation can be enough to cost precious tenths of a second to a rider fighting for the best possible position. Since what Rossi did that day has never been seen before in any grand prix, to act like making a decision is simple. Think about this, you're battling a rider tooth and nail on the ragged edge, and then out of nowhere he starts slowing down, and doesn't even attempt to turn-in and is pushing you out of the way...again a move NEVER seen before, and you really think what you might do at a track day is applicable?

You're speaking from the luxurious couch known as hindsight. It all seems so simple! Just don't do anything! Confront afterwards! What if you manage to get out of that situation and then Rossi starts trying to run you wide at every turn because he is raging beneath the helmet over some perceived injustice, which is really him creating a red herring for why he is about to lose the world championship.

Many people out there have continued to claim MM could have gotten out of that situation easily. Yet everyone who claims that has never ridden motorcycles at that level, or know what is involved to ride a motorcycle at that level. If you are in the "zone" as many high level athletes find themselves in during intense competition, you do not see things the way observers do. You go to another place altogether that most fans cannot ever understand.

Ok, so you feel it was a difficult decision for MM to make. MotoGP is now going into the 6th round of 2016, what do you still have a problem with regarding Sepang 2015? Was Rossi's pass on MM at Le Mans too close? It's the booing of JL that has you upset? Should Rossi have to start at the back of the grid at Mugello because some fans boo'd his rivals? What do you need to happen in 2016 to get over Sepang 2015?

JPSLotus · May 11, 2016

moto vudu said:
Ok, so you feel it was a difficult decision for MM to make. MotoGP is now going into the 6th round of 2016, what do you still have a problem with regarding Sepang 2015? Was Rossi's pass on MM at Le Mans too close? It's the booing of JL that has you upset? Should Rossi have to start at the back of the grid at Mugello because some fans boo'd his rivals? What do you need to happen in 2016 to get over Sepang 2015?

I made a response to your post.

The above quoted post has nothing to do with my response, and is a red herring.

moto vudu · May 11, 2016

povol said:
Which is exactly why i contend that he was trying to wreck him or at least run him completely off track. What did he have to gain by running himself and Marquez off line if it wasnt going to result in separating himself from his problem. Just because Rossi says he wasnt trying to crash Marquez doesnt make it true.

He wasn't going to gain anything by running himself and Marquez off line, but stupid decisions often make sense when you're acting on emotions.

Rossi didn't know MM was about to make contact because he had already begun turning into the corner and accelerating. If his intentions were to run MM off track or put him on the ground, why did he abort blocking MM before he made sure one of those things happened?

JPSLotus said:
I made a response to your post.

The above quoted post has nothing to do with my response, and is a red herring.

I agree with you that MM had very little time to make a decision when Rossi slowed and ran wide.

yamfan · May 11, 2016

While this subject has been done to death, I'd like to make a point/ask a question.
Is the forward/rear facing camera on the tailpiece of the bikes, one internal rotating unit, or is it two separate cameras in one housing?
Whilst we have all this log distance and helicopter footage available, surely the forward facing cameras on the tailpieces of both bikes would add clarity to the truth. Maybe the rotating camera we see swivelling from one rider to another picked it up and the powers that be are withholding the images, who knows and now cares.
Let's face it, 1 rider said there was a kick, 1 said there wasn't. Only those two riders know the truth if the video evidence is inconclusive.
That's my take on it anyway...

danski · May 11, 2016

People that hate VR say there was a kick.
Neutrals say not.
Rossi supporters say not.
Respected journalists say not.
3-1

JPSLotus · May 11, 2016

Daniboy said:
People that hate VR say there was a kick.
Neutrals say not.
Rossi supporters say not.
Respected journalists say not.
3-1

That is such a bogus claim.

3-1...really?

Respected journalists aren't going to say .... other than what they think DORNA wants to hear.

Press credentials are the most important thing to the journalist covering MotoGP as a career. The very threat of having those credentials revoked keeps everyone in line because it's better to toe a fine line, than to broach it outright and then not have a job afterwards. Even Kropo who has come closer to saying things that most journalists won't, still doesn't cross that fine line.

What do you even qualify as a neutral?

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