Greatest ride of all time from the greatest rider of all time

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JPSLotus said:
That was a hell of a battle between the two. Spies probably could have gotten him on the straightaway if he was willing to stand Mladin up .
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Turn 6 as well. That’s a move MM, VR and JL wouldn’t have hesitated to make and we would be tossing around the term race incident. I see what Spies did as race etiquette.
Cutting my teeth through watching AMA, I highly respect this type of racing, which is the norm.
Master and Pupil at work there.
 
JohnnyKnockdown said:
Scientology is opposed to both. Reason I ask is because you wrote that and I know they had gained a foothold in Oz.
I’ve read a from him as a youth and about him as an adult. The psychology behind cultists and serial criminals is fascinating to me. He was a brillant warped mind. I don’t believe he was ever diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic though I could be wrong. I do know he fits all the criteria for antisocial personality disorder. Very much identical personality traits as Trump.
Anyway its’s a race thread so I won’t divert the topic any longer. Your statement just peaked my interest.

I agree with your dislike of cod. Despite growing up in a New England fishing town, seafood never appealed to me
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I looked it up. There was a government enquiry into Scientology in Victoria, Australia (the state where I was born as it happens) which was the first time Scientology received any official discredit or recognition as having the aspects of a cult, and one of the conclusions was that L Ron had features of paranoid schizophrenia. I don’t know if this is the reason Scientology has chased down scandals involving psychiatry, or if it is because they see psychology etc as a competing paradigm with ‘dianetics’.
 
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JohnnyKnockdown said:
Turn 6 as well. That’s a move MM, VR and JL wouldn’t have hesitated to make and we would be tossing around the term race incident. I see what Spies did as race etiquette.
Cutting my teeth through watching AMA, I highly respect this type of racing, which is the norm.
Master and Pupil at work there.
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When you realise what is happening it is enthralling to watch such exchanges between two riders.

It is not the most common thing nowadays but the old 'challenger to changing the guard' can be some of the best racing one gets to see if we are aware of it at the time (sometimes I do not think we realise it until after the event).

Never got to see a lot of the Mladin v Spies over here but have seen a few videos of the Suzuki days and they were a step up at times.
 
Gaz said:
Sometimes it isn't about technique.

Sure you need basics but sometimes the unorthodox becomes orthodox (think Rossi leg wave for example)

Doohan's style was not pretty to watch but it sure was effective and I would say I disagree with the Taddy take but will admit that Taddy is often under-rated but Doohan would still have taken him.

But whether he would have won 5 without the tragedy of the previous few years is a valid question as the nearest to Doohan was taken from the track.
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Oh Mick would have probably beaten him, the point was that Taddy on equal equipment would have been a stronger rival than Criville.
 
synn said:
Oh Mick would have probably beaten him, the point was that Taddy on equal equipment would have been a stronger rival than Criville.
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IMO only but that may well depend on which year Criville as he was somewhat of an enigma in a some ways that he could compete but could not sustain, plus of course the hand injury.

Criville was to me a bit like a Crutchlow but without the mouth and crashes in that he was a tier down but on his day could produce (and I fully know he won the title where all aligned for a season), but sadly for mine he was a susceptible rider ..........
 
michaelm said:
I looked it up. There was a government enquiry into Scientology in Victoria, Australia (the state where I was born as it happens) which was the first time Scientology received any official discredit or recognition as having the aspects of a cult, and one of the conclusions was that L Ron had features of paranoid schizophrenia. I don’t know if this is the reason Scientology has chased down scandals involving psychiatry, or if it is because they see psychology etc as a competing paradigm with ‘dianetics’.
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He submitted Dianetics to the American Psychological Association, thinking it would revolutionize psychology. They dismissed it as hocus pocus and his war began.
That’s the short answer. If your interested, pick up Going Clear by Lawrence Wright. HBO did a documentary on the book, which was good but not nearly as deep as the book
There’s an excellent series on the A&E channel titled Leah Remini, Scientology and the Aftermath.
Its hosted by Leah and an Aussi named Mike Rinder, who was basically Scientology's enforcer. It deals more with the people side of the religon.
 
Gaz said:
Criville was to me a bit like a Crutchlow but without the mouth and crashes in that he was a tier down but on his day could produce (and I fully know he won the title where all aligned for a season), but sadly for mine he was a susceptible rider ..........
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Totally disagree, Criville was a bigger version of Pedrosa, 2nd tier riders who have accomplished significant tenures in the sport. Crutchlow is a 3rd tier rider, his name belongs to the also-ran category. Crutchlow= Petrucci, Elias, Lowes, Smith, Espargaros, Guintoli, Redding, etc.


If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
Jumkie said:
Totally disagree, Criville was a bigger version of Pedrosa, 2nd tier riders who have accomplished significant tenures in the sport. Crutchlow is a 3rd tier rider, his name belongs to the also-ran category. Crutchlow= Petrucci, Elias, Lowes, Smith, Espargaros, Guintoli, Redding, etc.


If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
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But we do agree :p

I say tier down you say 2nd tier.

What we don't agree on I suppose is where Crutchlow sits in that scheme and for mine, he is far better than all you list with the exception of Elias who I reckon is there or thereabouts with him ......... as was seen by that one race where he got equal gear
 
Jumkie said:
Totally disagree, Criville was a bigger version of Pedrosa, 2nd tier riders who have accomplished significant tenures in the sport. Crutchlow is a 3rd tier rider, his name belongs to the also-ran category. Crutchlow= Petrucci, Elias, Lowes, Smith, Espargaros, Guintoli, Redding, etc.


If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
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Everyone’s a bigger version of Pedrosa
 
Sometimes 3rd tier riders get lucky, look at Kenny Jr. a bloke in GP based solely on his surname and managed to be in the right place at the right time for 2 years of success before reverting back to a backmarker.
 
AntG said:
Sometimes 3rd tier riders get lucky, look at Kenny Jr. a bloke in GP based solely on his surname and managed to be in the right place at the right time for 2 years of success before reverting back to a backmarker.
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Suzuki have won 2 championships in the last 30 years. Might have been 1 considering the tragic events of 93. What does that tell you about Suzuki? What a "lucky" bloke. KRJR was runner up in 99, champ in 00. He was lucky for 2 years on the shittiest brand since the 80s? You don't happen to think Suzuki perhaps may have had 2 decent (not great) years? A real rarity for Suzuki.

Out of curiosity, what other riders during KRjr's tenure do you think could have won the title on the KR3, RGV500, GSVR, KR211V? With the exception of the KR211V project, these were the modern equivalent of riding the KTM-RC, RS-GP. Name me a rider that you think can win or come runner up today on the KTM-RC or RS-GP, hell throw in the GSXRR and GP18. The only bikes that have consistently won championships are the factory Honda/Yamaha since 1980s.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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RCV600RR said:
A really young Marco Simoncelli appears from 1:06:15 to congratulate Rossi.
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Yep, I noticed that too... :)
If I remember correctly, a wee little Luca Marini celebrates with him after the 2009 championship win as well.
 
Jumkie said:
Suzuki have won 2 championships in the last 30 years. Might have been 1 considering the tragic events of 93. What does that tell you about Suzuki? What a "lucky" bloke. KRJR was runner up in 99, champ in 00. He was lucky for 2 years on the shittiest brand since the 80s? You don't happen to think Suzuki perhaps may have had 2 decent (not great) years? A real rarity for Suzuki.

Out of curiosity, what other riders during KRjr's tenure do you think could have won the title on the KR3, RGV500, GSVR, KR211V? With the exception of the KR211V project, these were the modern equivalent of riding the KTM-RC, RS-GP. Name me a rider that you think can win or come runner up today on the KTM-RC or RS-GP, hell throw in the GSXRR and GP18. The only bikes that have consistently won championships are the factory Honda/Yamaha since 1980s.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
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I agree, KR Jrs title win was one of the most meritorious ever imo, and he nearly won a race, and probably failed to do so because he miscounted his laps, on a bike produced by his father’s tiny operation.

As you imply, it is far more likely he only had a vaguely competitive bike for that one year than that he is a 3rd rate rider who got lucky.
 
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michaelm said:
I agree, KR Jrs title win was on of the most meritorious ever imo, and he nearly won a race, and probably failed to do so because he miscounted his laps, on a bike produced by his father’s tiny operation.

As you imply, it is far more likely he only had a vaguely competitive bike for that one year than that he is a 3rd rate rider who got lucky.
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King Kenny basically had his son testing/racing his skunk works operations. I'm sure Jr would have loved to race a RC211V, but his dad was his sport agent, and that meant riding some of the most audacious GP creations...or as AntG put it "reverting to being a backmarker."

In my post I said "with the exception of the KR211V project", reason I said this is because most people aren't aware of the KRSR projects and how they compared to 'factory' machines. Though I'm not sure I conveyed the message, what I was trying to say is that UNLIKE the KTM-RC and the RS-GP (as well as the GP18 and GSXRR for that matter) the KRSR projects were as you say producer in a tiny garage ran and operated by King Kenny. Basically, (as I'm sure you know Mike) from the KR3, Proton KR5, to KR211V, these were Roberts SR putting together his chassis and either his engine or someone else's engine. I don't think most people appreciate what he was attempting. In 02 when the series went 4 stroke, KR ran a 3 cylinder 2 smoke. 3 cylinders. Sure it didn't win races and titles, but basically he was doing something similar to the brilliant Britten. The Honda RC211V was racing against minnows. It was hardly a competition these years. The V5 was the most amazing thing since the Apollo. The Proton KR5 for example went through several engines, King Kenny was basically trying to make his own Honda V5. Think about that for a moment. It wasn't easy to replicate what the most brilliant Japanese engineers created, partly of course because there was an army of them who made it. For 2003 the V5 was simply impossible to reverse engineer one, and they slapped a V4 KTM, which turned out to be ..... Consider that when KRSR convinced Honda to supply him with their proper V5, becoming the KR211V it became a contender. That was, a Honda V5 in a KR chassis! Amazing enough right? Now consider this, Honda required their satellite to be detuned factory specs, and the KR V5 was one more tier detuned from that! In a in-house skunk works chassis. That it could compete with factory and satellite bikes in the 990 era is something quite amazing.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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