GP12 tested today at Jerez

Kropotkin · Apr 16, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
This does not make sense to me. I have no doubt that nothing on the 2011 bike will make it to the 2012 bike. I guess my question was, was the test to fix the 2011 bike for 2011 under the disguise of testing for 2012? I can not reconcile in my mind that they have given up on 2011 and will race the bike as is until the end. At 15million euro it is an expensive rider acquisition to give up 2 races in.

The feeling I get out of that camp is that both Ducati and Rossi have been shocked at the state of the Ducati. Ducati thought the bike was pretty good, after all, Stoner was winning races on it. Rossi thought it would at least be rideable, turns out it's a nightmare. One team member said to me "we have 17 more testing weekends this year."

The key measure for Rossi will be how much progress the bike makes. If he thinks the bike is going to improve, he'll stick around. If Preziosi insist that his bike is fast, it just needs to be ridden in a particular way, then it might get ugly.

Anyway, the signing was cheap for Ducati. Marlboro picked up the bill...

ScottP · Apr 16, 2011

Kropotkin said:
The feeling I get out of that camp is that both Ducati and Rossi have been shocked at the state of the Ducati. Ducati thought the bike was pretty good, after all, Stoner was winning races on it. Rossi thought it would at least be rideable, turns out it's a nightmare. One team member said to me "we have 17 more testing weekends this year."

The key measure for Rossi will be how much progress the bike makes. If he thinks the bike is going to improve, he'll stick around. If Preziosi insist that his bike is fast, it just needs to be ridden in a particular way, then it might get ugly.

Anyway, the signing was cheap for Ducati. Marlboro picked up the bill...

you are spot on mate....

and i fully agree and now ROSSI is on a demolition derby against Stoner because he could ride the Duke better than him>>>

Mental Anarchist · Apr 16, 2011

Kropotkin said:
The feeling I get out of that camp is that both Ducati and Rossi have been shocked at the state of the Ducati. Ducati thought the bike was pretty good, after all, Stoner was winning races on it. Rossi thought it would at least be rideable, turns out it's a nightmare. One team member said to me "we have 17 more testing weekends this year."

The key measure for Rossi will be how much progress the bike makes. If he thinks the bike is going to improve, he'll stick around. If Preziosi insist that his bike is fast, it just needs to be ridden in a particular way, then it might get ugly.

Anyway, the signing was cheap for Ducati. Marlboro picked up the bill...

So this indicates to me a level of desperation is or has set in. The implications for Ducati are massive. Rossi has no place left to go in MotoGP so could Ducati end up being the reason Rossi leaves MotoGP?

How do you think Ducati will go with the design of next years bike? After all they are bring out a range of production bikes based on the philosophy of the chassis of the motogp bike. Do you think they will move towards a Japanese design philosophy with a twin spar frame but in CF instead of Aluminium and if so what impact do you think this will have on the range of production bikes due to hit the showroom floors in the not to distant future?

Kropotkin · Apr 16, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
So this indicates to me a level of desperation is or has set in. The implications for Ducati are massive. Rossi has no place left to go in MotoGP so could Ducati end up being the reason Rossi leaves MotoGP?

How do you think Ducati will go with the design of next years bike? After all they are bring out a range of production bikes based on the philosophy of the chassis of the motogp bike. Do you think they will move towards a Japanese design philosophy with a twin spar frame but in CF instead of Aluminium and if so what impact do you think this will have on the range of production bikes due to hit the showroom floors in the not to distant future?

The bikes will use a monocoque chassis, and the GP bike will use CF. Nothing wrong with the principle, the problem is in the execution, and in the engine. They're building a much less aggressive engine with a heavier crank, according to Neil Spalding. That should make it much easier to ride.

Mental Anarchist · Apr 16, 2011

michaelm said:
To be fair, this does not seem to be an issue anywhere other than here.

As my username suggest Michael I do not go down the path of thinking what others tell me I must think. I formulate my own opinion and often gain strength in that opinion from it being different to the main stream 'sheep' view that the majority adopts. Besides a brief post by Jumkie you will find I was the first one to suggest an issue with this test and to date I have heard nothing that has caused me to change MY opinion on the whole saga.

If Stoner or Lorenzo roll out a 2011 bike with a 2012 engine in it within the next short period of time then that will give some weight to this test being something other that an unethical and illegal event that amounts to cheating in my view. It will be funny how the yellow army were to react if Honda or Yamaha did just that on the Monday and Tuesday at Estoril before the race.

michaelm · Apr 16, 2011

Kropotkin said:
The bikes will use a monocoque chassis, and the GP bike will use CF. Nothing wrong with the principle, the problem is in the execution, and in the engine. They're building a much less aggressive engine with a heavier crank, according to Neil Spalding. That should make it much easier to ride.

This can't possibly be correct. Ask rob.

Arrabbiata1 · Apr 16, 2011

michaelm said:
This can't possibly be correct. Ask rob.

michaelm · Apr 16, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
As my username suggest Michael I do not go down the path of thinking what others tell me I must think. I formulate my own opinion and often gain strength in that opinion from it being different to the main stream 'sheep' view that the majority adopts. Besides a brief post by Jumkie you will find I was the first one to suggest an issue with this test and to date I have heard nothing that has caused me to change MY opinion on the whole saga.

If Stoner or Lorenzo roll out a 2011 bike with a 2012 engine in it within the next short period of time then that will give some weight to this test being something other that an unethical and illegal event that amounts to cheating in my view. It will be funny how the yellow army were to react if Honda or Yamaha did just that on the Monday and Tuesday at Estoril before the race.

Whatever. I doubt honda or yamaha have been blackmailed. As I said, either they want to test themselves, or have dismissed ducati as a threat this year. I tend to believe kropotkin, that this is something over which dorna/fim may have theoretical oversight but the msma decide. It is not really in anyone's interest to have ducati totally off the pace like suzuki.

Mental Anarchist · Apr 16, 2011

Kropotkin said:
The bikes will use a monocoque chassis, and the GP bike will use CF. Nothing wrong with the principle, the problem is in the execution, and in the engine. They're building a much less aggressive engine with a heavier crank, according to Neil Spalding. That should make it much easier to ride.

So, do you have any knowledge of the checks that took place at the test to determine that it was in fact a 2012 regulation engine that was tested i.e 81mm bore? It would appear that the FIM and Butler knew little about the test and I am sure that the MSMA didn't have a rep there to pull it down and check that it wasn't an 800.

If the focus is on an engine redesign the 6 engine rule doesn't allow them to make a mistake so I would imagine that Rossi would want to ride it before it became a sealed engine that he would be stuck with for approx. 3 GP's. Perhaps we have been focused on the fact that a 2011 chassis was used when the real story could be that they were testing a redesigned 800 engine prior to sealing it.

Keshav · Apr 16, 2011

michaelm said:
To be fair, this does not seem to be an issue anywhere other than here.

That's because we're in the vanguard of integrity

... and grassroots paranoia.

Keshav · Apr 16, 2011

J4rn0 said:
Now I would expect someone here to apologize to Ducati for arbitrarily insulting them (cheating etc.) out of sheer bias and prejudice... It would be something due, a matter of personal integrity.

Arbritrary my .... Funny I never had any suspicions about them prior to 2011.

Circumstances such as they are - have led a number of people to take issue

with this whole thing. My suspicions are not unreasonable. And while I have

great respect for Dave - nothing conclusive has been stated in the media

one way or the other. Apologize to Ducati... http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

Nino · Apr 16, 2011

Kropotkin said:
That is overstating the situation. During the race, Butler's authority is absolute and unquestioned. If he believes one of the factories have done something wrong they will be punished without mercy. However, if the factories agree among themselves, outside of the GP Commission, to allow extra testing for the 1000cc bikes, Butler will put his stamp of approval on the deal. The testing restrictions were brought in at the behest of the factories, and they all understand that the rule changes require more testing to be done. The extra testing affects only the factories, and so it is their decision to make.

In other words, this is not really a big deal.

I think the vast majority on this thread realised this from the beginning. But it's still good to have confirmation from a trusted source to stop the speculation of a paranoid minority.

J4rn0 · Apr 16, 2011

Keshav said:
Arbritrary my .... Funny I never had any suspicions about them prior to 2011.

Circumstances such as they are - have led a number of people to take issue

with this whole thing. My suspicions are not unreasonable. And while I have

great respect for Dave - nothing conclusive has been stated in the media

one way or the other. Apologize to Ducati... http://www.powerslide.net/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif

Apologizing would have been good for you -- surely Ducati could not care less, and neither do I.

You and the other solitary member of the "number of people party" are free to stay with your head in a hole.

dwoodhouse · Apr 16, 2011

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Here it seems it is ok to slander a corporation's name and then it is up to ducati to prove they are innocent to a couple of ps members.

Kropotkin · Apr 16, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
So, do you have any knowledge of the checks that took place at the test to determine that it was in fact a 2012 regulation engine that was tested i.e 81mm bore? It would appear that the FIM and Butler knew little about the test and I am sure that the MSMA didn't have a rep there to pull it down and check that it wasn't an 800.

No, and I'm not sure there was anyone there to check it. It was taken on good faith - a necessary situation, as otherwise testing would be even more expensive, with everyone requiring tech inspection at the tests. There has to be a level of trust in order to function. There even was between the Soviet Union and the US, for much the same reason - nobody could afford to blatantly breach the gentlemen's agreements made.

Mental Anarchist said:
If the focus is on an engine redesign the 6 engine rule doesn't allow them to make a mistake so I would imagine that Rossi would want to ride it before it became a sealed engine that he would be stuck with for approx. 3 GP's. Perhaps we have been focused on the fact that a 2011 chassis was used when the real story could be that they were testing a redesigned 800 engine prior to sealing it.

Rossi is testing a new engine at Estoril in a couple of weeks' time, and they couldn't introduce the engine at Estoril anyway.. Makes no sense to test the 800 at Jerez, more sense to test the 1000.

Keshav · Apr 16, 2011

Nino said:
I think the vast majority on this thread realised this from the beginning. But it's still good to have confirmation from a trusted source to stop the speculation of a paranoid minority.

Oh... so you took a pole did you? As far as I recall it was pretty much just you and J4 who were defending against the allegation.

Since when is two people on the forum a "majority"? Delusional as ever.

Keshav · Apr 16, 2011

Kropotkin said:
No, and I'm not sure there was anyone there to check it. It was taken on good faith - a necessary situation, as otherwise testing would be even more expensive, with everyone requiring tech inspection at the tests. There has to be a level of trust in order to function. There even was between the Soviet Union and the US, for much the same reason - nobody could afford to blatantly breach the gentlemen's agreements made.

Rossi is testing a new engine at Estoril in a couple of weeks' time, and they couldn't introduce the engine at Estoril anyway.. Makes no sense to test the 800 at Jerez, more sense to test the 1000.

I try not be pedantic (really I do). And your point is well made. However I would point out the word "blatant" as being key.

What Ducati "appeared" to do seemed so blatant that I was astonished. Been following GP racing since '79 and rarely ever

was inclined to make an allegation of cheating - tho I don't doubt there was some very clever instances that were just too

subtle for scrutineers to pick up on.

dwoodhouse · Apr 16, 2011

Just a point, if weight distribution makes such a massive difference in motogp racing, testing a different engine in the 2011 chassis would be worthless. It comes back to whether or not the motor was the 800 or 1000. Innocent till proven guilty. That is the basis of many judicial systems simply because if a reputation/life is to be destroyed, the onus rightfully should sit with the prosecution.

Kropotkin · Apr 16, 2011

Keshav said:
I try not be pedantic (really I do). And your point is well made. However I would point out the word "blatant" as being key.

What Ducati "appeared" to do seemed so blatant that I was astonished. Been following GP racing since '79 and rarely ever

was inclined to make an allegation of cheating - tho I don't doubt there was some very clever instances that were just too

subtle for scrutineers to pick up on.

They released photos and video on the day of the test, in part to make it clear to the other factories that this was not the 2011 bike. As I say, there has to be a level of trust.

And one thing to note, in the years between '79 and 2008, there was virtually unlimited testing. It only looks bad now because there are so many more restrictions.

povol · Apr 16, 2011

I am having a hard time with all this gentlemans agreement, based on trust ......... Since when, did anyone trust anyone in the world of racing. The stakes are to high and it has been proven time and time again that the participants will go way past agreements and trust to gain a upper hand, even theft.As secretive as this test has become with the sheer lack of information, they could have been testing a new Bridgestone tire built especially to Rossi's specs for all we know

GP12 tested today at Jerez

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