GoPro Motorrad Grand Prix Deutschland 2016 spoiler and ....

Not bad evidence that. If you slowly meander into my lane I have some chance to consider how to respond. If you aggressively swerve at me though, different situation. The response would be reflex.

Moto vudu says it - "you have no control over the action(s) I chose in response." To me that's evidence to suggest Rossi's motive would be to make MM crash, so there would be no chance of any payback. Really if there was anyone half switched on to motives in this thing it would be easy to take Rossi to task, as if say he was in the witness box.

What was the motive of pushing Marquez wide?

Not to crash him, just send him a warning.

Warning to do what (vudu)? Respond? You have no control over how MM would respond.

The only logical motive then would be to make him crash. That is the only scenario which provides Rossi control.

And that's exactly how it looks.

birdman said:

Not bad evidence that. If you slowly meander into my lane I have some chance to consider how to respond. If you aggressively swerve at me though, different situation. The response would be reflex.

Moto vudu says it - "you have no control over the action(s) I chose in response." To me that's evidence to suggest Rossi's motive would be to make MM crash, so there would be no chance of any payback. Really if there was anyone half switched on to motives in this thing it would be easy to take Rossi to task, as if say he was in the witness box.

What was the motive of pushing Marquez wide?

Not to crash him, just send him a warning.

Warning to do what (vudu)? Respond? You have no control over how MM would respond.

The only logical motive then would be to make him crash. That is the only scenario which provides Rossi control.

And that's exactly how it looks.

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You don't deliberately make someone crash by leaving them other options. Rossi had no control over Marc deciding to turn into him. If Rossi wanted to make contact with Marc, he would have made direct contact with him.

You and Gaz keep going to a freeway example of slowly creeping over into someone's lane to see how they react. If you want to deliberately crash someone off the freeway, don't slowly creep into their lane giving them options to brake, accelerate, or whatever. Just slam into them pushing them off the road! Leave them no options! That's deliberate.

You will see what you want to see. If what you want to see is Rossi intentionally crashing Marc out of the race, every movement from Rossi from the start of the race to Marc crashing, you will interpret as Rossi preparing to crash Marc out of the race. Ultimately, RD didn't see it the way you saw it so you'll have to get over it if the penalty wasn't what you wanted it to be. You're a fan, not a MotoGP official.

Gaz i have no problem with MM's punishment in PI. He and his team did not pit within the given window and paid the price. Punishment was justified. My problem is with Rossi's incident which was bigger offence but got a lighter punishment.

MV i guess Rossi got close to him in Sepang to say this: Hey Marc i am throwing a party in Ibiza to celebrate my 2nd place trophy make sure you join the party.

Goku said:

MV i guess Rossi got close to him in Sepang to say this: Hey Marc i am throwing a party in Ibiza to celebrate my 2nd place trophy make sure you join the party.

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Maybe, that would make more sense than getting close to Marc to hope he decides to crash into him. As long as Marc showed up to the party with his 3rd place trophy, they would've had a good time.

Birdman how dare you question Rossi's accusation of MM in PI. They are honest and justified. Marc's front tire cannot overheat and he was 10 second faster than everyone else . Some of Rossi's fan can testify that. They saw that with their own eyes. Best course of action of that day for marc would be torpedo lorenzo and also take out iannone if possible. Now that's honest racing.

birdman said:

Agreed. I was waiting for something like last season to really see how good he is, and the answer surprised me on many levels. Mostly on how well he handled and moved on from the whole Rossi scandal. It apparently didn't affect him in a negative way, rather it made him stronger, wiser, better.

By the way, the Honda stresses the front, can be a good or bad thing apparently. Wonder if Rossi had any idea of that FACT when he accused MM of screwing with him at PI, deliberately slowing the pace? Where's J4, this is evidence for debate. Let me guess the bopper reply: false false, hater, hater.

Really, so now we know MM was just using his head and giving the tire a chance to make it to the end. Then pulls out a blinding last lap to win. ....... brilliant.

But this is something important to remember for next year, before handing the championship to MM. The Honda stresses the front, much more than the Yamaha. Lorenzo is out of the way. Advantage VR. New spec Michelins on the way. I predict it now, conservation of the front will be the name of the game for 2017. I have confidence in MM though, afterall he did it before in an epic race, he is the more adaptable of the two, but it wont be easy.

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To be fair to J4rn0, there are reasons (often not good ones imo) for Dorna et al to make changes to tyres other than advantaging Rossi or disadvantaging the likes of Stoner and Lorenzo, although this doesn't exclude such corollary consequences being desirable for Dorna.

The 2012 tyre change was supposedly partly to help Ducati, and also because the then current Bridgestones were slow to warm up leading to cold tyre crashes, and certainly Michelin had some catastrophic tyre failures earlier this year as J4rn0 said. Carmelo is also prone to brainstorms which not uncommonly lead to him deciding MotoGP should emulate F1 and his hero Bernie, and iirc he actually instructed Bridgestone at one stage to make tyres which wore out more to "improve the racing" .

moto vudu said:

You don't deliberately make someone crash by leaving them other options. Rossi had no control over Marc deciding to turn into him. If Rossi wanted to make contact with Marc, he would have made direct contact with him.

You and Gaz keep going to a freeway example of slowly creeping over into someone's lane to see how they react. If you want to deliberately crash someone off the freeway, don't slowly creep into their lane giving them options to brake, accelerate, or whatever. Just slam into them pushing them off the road! Leave them no options! That's deliberate.

You will see what you want to see. If what you want to see is Rossi intentionally crashing Marc out of the race, every movement from Rossi from the start of the race to Marc crashing, you will interpret as Rossi preparing to crash Marc out of the race. Ultimately, RD didn't see it the way you saw it so you'll have to get over it if the penalty wasn't what you wanted it to be. You're a fan, not a MotoGP official.

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I don't care about the penalty.

I'm more interested in how your thinking changes when you take the fact its Rossi out of the equation and think its a freeway. Just like you said, I have no control over how you might respond.

Rossi is not going to slam into MM like MM and Willirot. The reason why is obvious is it not. He crashes too.

No first he has to be in control. A very good point you made when you were thinking freeway. Vital then to maintain the inside line. Its rare riders crash from the inside line in any collision. Slow it down to a manageable speed, so as not to crash himself. Exactly what he did.

Now what? You tell me. Push him wide, but not intentionally crash him? So just open the throttle and ride off and hope for the best. And MM is going to be so scared he just sits there watching you go?

birdman said:

I don't care about the penalty.

I'm more interested in how your thinking changes when you take the fact its Rossi out of the equation and think its a freeway. Just like you said, I have no control over how you might respond.

Rossi is not going to slam into MM like MM and Willirot. The reason why is obvious is it not. He crashes too.

No first he has to be in control. A very good point you made when you were thinking freeway. Vital then to maintain the inside line. Its rare riders crash from the inside line in any collision. Slow it down to a manageable speed, so as not to crash himself. Exactly what he did.

Now what? You tell me. Push him wide, but not intentionally crash him? So just open the throttle and ride off and hope for the best. And MM is going to be so scared he just sits there watching you go?

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A good point.

I am yet to hear any cogent explanation from a Rossi partisan as to what exactly Rossi was attempting in the Sepang 2015 incident.

birdman said:

I don't care about the penalty.

I'm more interested in how your thinking changes when you take the fact its Rossi out of the equation and think its a freeway. Just like you said, I have no control over how you might respond.

Rossi is not going to slam into MM like MM and Willirot. The reason why is obvious is it not. He crashes too.

No first he has to be in control. A very good point you made when you were thinking freeway. Vital then to maintain the inside line. Its rare riders crash from the inside line in any collision. Slow it down to a manageable speed, so as not to crash himself. Exactly what he did.

Now what? You tell me. Push him wide, but not intentionally crash him? So just open the throttle and ride off and hope for the best. And MM is going to be so scared he just sits there watching you go?

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It's not rare for a rider to crash from the inside line in a collision if it's the right side of the bike making the contact. Brake levers getting pinched has happened enough times to say it isn't rare.

I can't answer for Rossi's main goal for pushing him wide. Maybe he hoped forcing Marc to lose time would make him quit playing the games he thought he was playing. If he wanted to intentionally crash him, then he would have intentionally crashed him without needing any assistance from Marc to turn into him. If he wanted to intentionally crash him, but make it look like an accident, just wait one more corner for turn 15 and "Oops, I must've missed my braking marker! Give him the Iannone on Lorenzo treatment!" Rossi crashes too? Oh well, point was made and Rossi can deny he did it on purpose.

In any collision between motorcycles, regardless of the speed or who is on the inside, it can easily result in both bikes going down. Rossi wouldn't have planned on making Marc hit him at Sepang anymore than he planned on making Marc hit him at the chicane in Assen.

moto vudu said:

You don't deliberately make someone crash by leaving them other options. Rossi had no control over Marc deciding to turn into him. If Rossi wanted to make contact with Marc, he would have made direct contact with him.

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Actually you are right - Marquez had other options and di not deliberately crash himself as some have suggested.

So we agree then, Marquez did not deliberately crash himself as Rossi left him options.

So, if Marquez did not deliberately crash himself that means he either crashed himself accidentally, Rossi crashed him accidentally or Rossi crashed him deliberately. I know my thoughts and suggest you reread them back in the Sepang thread, the thread that started all the newbies joining.

moto vudu said:

You and Gaz keep going to a freeway example of slowly creeping over into someone's lane to see how they react. If you want to deliberately crash someone off the freeway, don't slowly creep into their lane giving them options to brake, accelerate, or whatever. Just slam into them pushing them off the road! Leave them no options! That's deliberate.

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Kind of true.

A slower creep is far more subtle and can be made to look like an accident or it could simply be carelessness on my behalf but if I continue to creep I can remove your options of escape (if I so chose)

Again, reread the Sepang thread for my thoughts as to the incident (of PM if you wish and I will give them to you pleasantly)

moto vudu said:

You will see what you want to see. If what you want to see is Rossi intentionally crashing Marc out of the race, every movement from Rossi from the start of the race to Marc crashing, you will interpret as Rossi preparing to crash Marc out of the race. Ultimately, RD didn't see it the way you saw it so you'll have to get over it if the penalty wasn't what you wanted it to be. You're a fan, not a MotoGP official.

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Does this not apply to yourself as well?

RD found no RULE infraction by Marquez but it keeps being bought up by yourself and others with similar thoughts/allegiances as if it was fact that he broke a rule, he did not.

FWIW, I have friends who have been MotoGP officials including one who has worked in the tower at some events and has been COC or Chief Steward at some FIM sanctioned race series) and most feel that the penalty applied (those that felt VR was at fault as not all agreed of course) was not harsh enough but most also fully subscribe to the theory that RD handled it all correctly (their views ranged from additional points to a DQ for the single race only).

moto vudu said:

Maybe, that would make more sense than getting close to Marc to hope he decides to crash into him. As long as Marc showed up to the party with his 3rd place trophy, they would've had a good time.

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And here I am thinking that MM and JL shared the world championship trophy, I mean I have read it so often and seen it on crash so it must be true.

Gaz said:

Actually you are right - Marquez had other options and di not deliberately crash himself as some have suggested.

So we agree then, Marquez did not deliberately crash himself as Rossi left him options.

So, if Marquez did not deliberately crash himself that means he either crashed himself accidentally, Rossi crashed him accidentally or Rossi crashed him deliberately. I know my thoughts and suggest you reread them back in the Sepang thread, the thread that started all the newbies joining.

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Lol, Gaz why would I go back and read the Sepang thread? If it's my opinion that Rossi didn't intentionally cause Marc to crash and that is the same opinion that was shared by RD when giving Rossi his penalty. I should be satisfied!

moto vudu said:

It's not rare for a rider to crash from the inside line in a collision if it's the right side of the bike making the contact. Brake levers getting pinched has happened enough times to say it isn't rare.

I can't answer for Rossi's main goal for pushing him wide. Maybe he hoped forcing Marc to lose time would make him quit playing the games he thought he was playing. If he wanted to intentionally crash him, then he would have intentionally crashed him without needing any assistance from Marc to turn into him. If he wanted to intentionally crash him, but make it look like an accident, just wait one more corner for turn 15 and "Oops, I must've missed my braking marker! Give him the Iannone on Lorenzo treatment!" Rossi crashes too? Oh well, point was made and Rossi can deny he did it on purpose.

In any collision between motorcycles, regardless of the speed or who is on the inside, it can easily result in both bikes going down. Rossi wouldn't have planned on making Marc hit him at Sepang anymore than he planned on making Marc hit him at the chicane in Assen.

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An illegal non-racing move which resulted in MM going down. I had no problem with David Emmett's original attribution of the event to a brain explosion/Rossi cracking under heavy pressure, but it is when you guys start to allocate blame to MM for "turning into" Rossi when things start to become vexatious. Pretty much however MM responds to such an unexpected and indeed well nigh unprecedented move absolves Rossi of no responsibility, given he may well have been startled, but arguing he was culpable for attempting to negotiate the corner in a normal fashion as you appear to be doing is among the weakest of many weak arguments from you.

michaelm said:

An illegal non-racing move which resulted in MM going down. I had no problem with David Emmett's original attribution of the event to a brain exlplosion/Rossi cracking under heavy pressure, but it is when you guys start to allocate blame to MM for "turning into" Rossi when things start to become vexatious. Pretty much however MM responds to such an unexpected and indeed well nigh unprecedented move absolves Rossi of no responsibility, given he may well have been startled, but arguing he was culpable for attempting to negotiate the corner in a normal fashion as you appear to be doing is among the weakest of many weak arguments from you.

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If I felt Marc turning into Rossi absolved him of responsibility, I'd argue Rossi never should've been penalized or Marc should've received a penalty as well. My argument is that Rossi didn't intentionally cause Marc to crash, thus the penalty he was given was correct. I referred to the incident with Marc and Wilairot because there are similarities.

moto vudu said:

If I felt Marc turning into Rossi absolved him of responsibility, I'd argue Rossi never should've been penalized or Marc should've received a penalty as well. My argument is that Rossi didn't intentionally cause Marc to crash, thus the penalty he was given was correct. I referred to the incident with Marc and Wilairot because there are similarities.

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Seriously for a second or minute or whatever but why do you feel that 3 points was correct or do you agree that VR had to be penalised (irrespective of the penalty applied) and that MM could not be as no rule was broken?

With regards to Willarott they are actually significantly different incidents and bear no similarities other than MM being involved in both, and it does smell of journalist licence in that by mentioning another incident, mud sticks and people start to look at the fact that MM has been involved in two incidents.

The Willarott incident was a first class .... up on a few fronts including officials who allowed him on the circuit as the chequer was being shown at start/finish, to his team and significantly of himself who should have seen Willarott earlier but due to racers focus he did not (he simply should not have been in racer mode). This incident was one that leaves a serious black mark on the sport for a number of reasons, not least that it was totally avoidable and that the subsequent penalty was weak, not just lower case weak but upper case WEAK.

The Sepang incident is more similar to the Capirossi/Harada incident than the Willarott incident.

moto vudu said:

If I felt Marc turning into Rossi absolved him of responsibility, I'd argue Rossi never should've been penalized or Marc should've received a penalty as well. My argument is that Rossi didn't intentionally cause Marc to crash, thus the penalty he was given was correct. I referred to the incident with Marc and Wilairot because there are similarities.

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It has already been pointed out to you multiply that there are numerous differences, not least that the Willairot incident was not in a race and that the actual problem was that MM had no way of knowing Willairot was even where he was, which is why he shouldn't have been attempting a fast lap with others on their warm down lap. There is also unusually for this board pretty much universal agreement even from those you usually most oppose that MM deserved a much more severe penalty, and the fact he didn't receive same if anything supports the argument that Dorna bring influence to bear such that their golden boys are treated leniently.

I tend to think Birdman has hit on the real point, which JPS has touched on in regard to Ayrton Senna, that those of Senna's and Rossi's ilk, great and talented though they may be, rely on the discretion of their competitors, and that said competitors will back down when offered a choice between ceding a position or being crashed into. I said at the time that there would not have been a crash if Stoner, Gibernau (or Lorenzo) had been the other party, given the instinctive and immediate reaction of such riders would be to avoid collision. MM is a different kind of animal however, whom Rossi severely misjudged on 2 occasions at Sepang 2015, both in attempting to intimidate him pre-race with the nonsensical conspiracy theory about the preceding PI race, and in making the move under discussion. And yes, MM similarly exploited Lorenzo's skill and decency at Jerez 2013.

moto vudu said:

Rossi didn't deliberately cause a crash during a race, he intentionally ran a rider wide. ...

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Breath taking.

Judge, I only pointed the gun and pulled the trigger, he didn’t duck fast enough. I'm innocent.

...and regarding your call to sanction Marc for the practice incident with Iannone, maybe Race Directino shouldn't have shitcanned the ..... point system. Couldn't have Valegolden Tossi circulating with 4 points risking their hand.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Cal Crutchlow wants to know why there isn't 52 pages talking about him? Dude was 4th fastest all weekend. He just messed up quali. Hate on you ...... haters.

MdubSTYLIE said:

Cal Crutchlow wants to know why there isn't 52 pages talking about him? Dude was 4th fastest all weekend. He just messed up quali. Hate on you ...... haters.

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He would have won too, except for the "slow riders in front of him" holding him back.

To all you doubters, on twitter, who I don't care about, or what you say from home, and not the first thing in my mind the moment a mic is put in my face in parc ferme, i was 4th fastest .......!

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Jumkie said:

He would have won too, except for the "slow riders in front of him" holding him back.

To all you doubters, on twitter, who I don't care about, or what you say from home, and not the first thing in my mind the moment a mic is put in my face in parc ferme, i was 4th fastest .......!

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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Should have stayed out. Would of won that ......