GoPro Motorrad Grand Prix Deutschland 2016 spoiler and ....

moto vudu said:

You compared PI 2013 with Sepang 2015. For PI 2013, there was nothing more to investigate after Marc did an extra lap. At Sepang, RD said they didn't want to impose a penalty until they had a chance to review the incident.

I know you don't like that answer, but that is why Marc got a Black flag and Rossi didn't.

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One was a matter of fact .......... PI 2013 as the number of laps are factual and MM's team played the rules and lost

The others are matters of opinion based on available facts and thus (IMO) rightly require due and fair consideration before penalties are imposed (irrespective of the end penalty imposed)

moto vudu said:

You compared PI 2013 with Sepang 2015. For PI 2013, there was nothing more to investigate after Marc did an extra lap. At Sepang, RD said they didn't want to impose a penalty until they had a chance to review the incident.

I know you don't like that answer, but that is why Marc got a Black flag and Rossi didn't.

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Seriously, what was there to investigate. There has never been an incident that showed intent like what Rossi did. He snapped and purposely rode another rider to the edge of the track causing him to crash. He even looked over at him twice to size him up. You can quote Mike Wbb all you want, but the world saw what happened, and his response was a blatant attempt at keeping Rossi's title hopes alive. Had Lorenzo not won the title it would have been one of the biggest injustices in the history of motorsport.

povol said:

Seriously, what was there to investigate. There has never been an incident that showed intent like what Rossi did. He snapped and purposely rode another rider to the edge of the track causing him to crash. He even looked over at him twice to size him up. You can quote Mike Wbb all you want, but the world saw what happened, and his response was a blatant attempt at keeping Rossi's title hopes alive. Had Lorenzo not won the title it would have been one of the biggest injustices in the history of motorsport.

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They would have all the video footage and bike data up to the point of the incident to review to assist with making determinations of who was at fault and how severe the penalty should be. The fact that you don't agree with RD's call is perfectly normal to me. Not agreeing with a call from officials is extremely common throughout all sports.

You say "the world saw what happened". Yes, and thousands of people have different opinions on what they saw! Some here claim they saw a kick! One person here in particular (we wont mention names) has gone so far as to say what he saw was premeditated attempted murder.

moto vudu said:

They would have all the video footage and bike data up to the point of the incident to review to assist with making determinations of who was at fault and how severe the penalty should be. The fact that you don't agree with RD's call is perfectly normal to me. Not agreeing with a call from officials is extremely common throughout all sports.

You say "the world saw what happened". Yes, and thousands of people have different opinions on what they saw! Some here claim they saw a kick! One person here in particular (we wont mention names) has gone so far as to say what they saw was premeditated attempted murder.

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Yeah sure! You saw what happen a few days ago in America on the hillary clinton email ruling? Same .... here on your boy rossi. The evidence is clear & a fix was put in to suppress the truth to protect the chosen one.

moto vudu said:

They would have all the video footage and bike data up to the point of the incident to review to assist with making determinations of who was at fault and how severe the penalty should be. The fact that you don't agree with RD's call is perfectly normal to me. Not agreeing with a call from officials is extremely common throughout all sports.

You say "the world saw what happened". Yes, and thousands of people have different opinions on what they saw! Some here claim they saw a kick! One person here in particular (we wont mention names) has gone so far as to say what they saw was premeditated attempted murder.

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It would help yours (and RD's) case if the wording of their ruling actually made some sort of vague sense, given they made an unequivocal statement that MM had not ridden illegally.

moto vudu said:

They would have all the video footage and bike data up to the point of the incident to review to assist with making determinations of who was at fault and how severe the penalty should be. The fact that you don't agree with RD's call is perfectly normal to me. Not agreeing with a call from officials is extremely common throughout all sports.

You say "the world saw what happened". Yes, and thousands of people have different opinions on what they saw! Some here claim they saw a kick! One person here in particular (we wont mention names) has gone so far as to say what he saw was premeditated attempted murder.

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Like I said , no investigation was needed. It was blatant and Rossi was penalized basically 10 spots on the grid . It's rather obvious the rules are different for different riders.

povol said:

Like I said , no investigation was needed. It was blatant and Rossi was penalized basically 10 spots on the grid . It's rather obvious the rules are different for different riders.

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If it was the first time such an incident occurred, how do you know what the penalty would be for a different rider?

Marc didn't get any points for his high speed collision with Wilairot. He was only penalized grid position via adding a minute to his qualifying time. Which reminds me in Germany, we witnessed what was almost a very similar high speed collision between Marc and Iannone. Why has that been swept under the rug? I don't know if that was Iannone still up to speed after the session ended, or if Marc was riding slow on the racing line during a hot track. But considering one of both of them would be in the hospital right now if there was contact, I'm surprised how little attention that incident received.

moto vudu said:

If it was the first time such an incident occurred, how do you know what the penalty would be for a different rider?

Marc didn't get any points for his high speed collision with Wilairot. He was only penalized grid position via adding a minute to his qualifying time. Which reminds me in Germany, we witnessed what was almost a very similar high speed collision between Marc and Iannone. Why has that been swept under the rug? I don't know if that was Iannone still up to speed after the session ended, or if Marc was riding slow on the racing line during a hot track. But considering one of both of them would be in the hospital right now if there was contact, I'm surprised how little attention that incident received.

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The Wiillairot incident, and seemingly the Iannone incident which I didn't see in context bit only in the replays on here, were negligent imo and the Willairot incident as I have said certainly should have garnered a much more severe penalty imo.

Both were not intentional and in practice, and not all 3 of deliberate (actually seemingly premeditated), illegal and on a live track during a race as was the case for the Sepang incident.

Vuu, I don't think you understand the word "deliberate". Which Rossi admitted to (while conceding he ran Marc wide off the race line but...according to him, not meaning to make him crash bla bla.)

Therefore, this 'deliberate' act, during a points scoring race must be handled severely, so as not to compromise the championship, which is scored on points. The other incidents involving Marc, though deserving of suspension for Wilarot, still must factor in as unintentional, that is NOT being done DELIBERATELY. Modern society understands a distinction when assigning charges and penalties. You kill a guy on the road because your dumb ... wasn't paying attention: manslaughter. You kill a guy by deliberately going onto the curb and running over a guy on the sidewalk: murder. You can later say, well, I was just trying to buzz him, just make him run off the sidewalk, I didn't mean my bumper to hit him causing him to hit his head on the fall. If the judge and jury are not insane, they'll convict him of murder. And to be clear, even if you don't manage to kill the victim, the charge is still attempted murder. NOT attempted manslaughter. The sentences for manslaughter and murder are accordingly different too.

Marc torpedoing Wilarot, by riding negligently: suspension.

Rossi deliberately causing a crash during a race: license ban, minimum 6-9 months.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

Jumkie said:

Vuu, I don't think you understand the word "deliberate". Which Rossi admitted to (while conceding he ran Marc wide off the race line but...according to him, not meaning to make him crash bla bla.)

Therefore, this 'deliberate' act, during a points scoring race must be handled severely, so as not to compromise the championship, which is scored on points. The other incidents involving Marc, though deserving of suspension for Wilarot, still must factor in as unintentional, that is NOT being done DELIBERATELY. Modern society understands a distinction when assigning charges and penalties. You kill a guy on the road because your dumb ... wasn't paying attention: manslaughter. You kill a guy by deliberately going onto the curb and running over a guy on the sidewalk: murder. You can later say, well, I was just trying to buzz him, just make him run off the sidewalk, I didn't mean my bumper to hit him causing him to hit his head on the fall. If the judge and jury are not insane, they'll convict him of murder. And to be clear, even if you don't manage to kill the victim, the charge is still attempted murder. NOT attempted manslaughter. The sentences for manslaughter and murder are accordingly different too.

Marc torpedoing Wilarot, by riding negligently: suspension.

Rossi deliberately causing a crash during a race: license ban, minimum 6-9 months.

If you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.

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Rossi didn't deliberately cause a crash during a race, he intentionally ran a rider wide. It's not the first time a rider has intentionally pushed another rider wide, it may be the first time a rider has openly admitted to it. Marc didn't deliberately crash into Wilairot, but he intentionally kept speeding after the practice session ended.

Marc crashing after Rossi blocked him and Marc crashing into Wilairot were unintentional incidents. The penalties for the incidents (starting from the back of the grid for the next race) were similar.

moto vudu said:

Rossi didn't deliberately cause a crash during a race, he intentionally ran a rider wide. It's not the first time a rider has intentionally pushed another rider wide, it may be the first time a rider has openly admitted to it. Marc didn't deliberately crash into Wilairot, but he intentionally kept speeding after the practice session ended.

Marc crashing after Rossi blocked him and Marc crashing into Wilairot were unintentional incidents. The penalties for the incidents (starting from the back of the grid for the next race) were similar.

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He fairly clearly intentionally aimed his bike at MM, drastically slowing and changing his line in what everyone (except perhaps you), including Rossi, has conceded was a non-racing move. If it is what you claim of what was he found guilty and for what was he penalised in the first place?

michaelm said:

He fairly clearly intentionally aimed his bike at MM, drastically slowing and changing his line in what everyone (except perhaps you), including Rossi, has conceded was a non-racing move. If it is what you claim of what was going guilty and for what was penalised?

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Racing move or non-racing move, it was not done to intentionally cause a crash. It was done to intentionally slow and push another rider wide.

Marc fairly clearly and intentionally kept speeding, aimed his bike at Wilairot and knocked his ... into another dimension, in what everyone (except perhaps you), has conceded was a non-racing move.


See some of you are doing the same thing you claimed Mike Webb was full of BS for. You claim that Mike Webb was full of .... because he stated it was RD's opinion that they found some fault with Marc. You state there's no way RD could read Marc's mind to know what he was thinking. However, you're claiming you can read Rossi's mind and know that he was thinking to deliberately cause Marc to crash because he intentionally ran Marc wide.

moto vudu said:

See some of you are doing the same thing you claimed Mike Webb was full of BS for. You claim that Mike Webb was full of .... because he stated it was RD's opinion that they found some fault with Marc. You state there's no way RD could read Marc's mind to know what he was thinking. However, you're claiming you can read Rossi's mind and know that he was thinking to deliberately cause Marc to crash because he intentionally ran Marc wide.

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If you and I are driving beside one another on the freeway, and I start to come into your lane what is the end result?

What Rossi intended from his moving of MM to the edge of the track is immaterial. The Material is that MM fell as a result of the incident.

If I aim a loaded gun at your head and pull the trigger but did not mean to actually hit your head or kill you am I less a criminal?

Now, not correlating the two incidents as similar but using examples deliberateness of an action does not determine the result



This is on the Mike Webb front, you and many others on the interweb have claimed that MM was indeed playing with VR and as such, are you not claiming that you can read MM's mind?

Or what of Rossi and his brethren since PI where Rossi claimed that MM was 'playing with him' and the subsequent outcry?

Is that not the same thing where people are trying to read minds?

moto vudu said:

Racing move or non-racing move, it was not done to intentionally cause a crash. It was done to intentionally slow and push another rider wide.

Marc fairly clearly and intentionally kept speeding, aimed his bike at Wilairot and knocked his ... into another dimension, in what everyone (except perhaps you), has conceded was a non-racing move.


See some of you are doing the same thing you claimed Mike Webb was full of BS for. You claim that Mike Webb was full of .... because he stated it was RD's opinion that they found some fault with Marc. You state there's no way RD could read Marc's mind to know what he was thinking. However, you're claiming you can read Rossi's mind and know that he was thinking to deliberately cause Marc to crash because he intentionally ran Marc wide.

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Sophistry, for which you don't have much talent actually.

MM had no intention of becoming involved with Willairot at all, he was stupidly and negligently (on both his part and in regard to his crew who sent him out) riding as though practice was still in progress, in which case he would have been riding in a perfectly reasonable fashion and Willairot wouldn't have been going so slowly on the racing line. Sure he should have anticipated the possibility which is why he shouldn't have been attempting a fast lap and why it was he who was negligent rather than Willairot, who would have been the negligent party had practice not ended.

With attempts to blame MM for the Sepang incident as has been argued at very great length he was negotiating the corner in the normal fashion on the racing line, was not trying to pass Rossi nor having a pass attempted on him by Rossi, and had no reason to anticipate a pretty much unprecedented non-racing move from Rossi, hence the onus being on Rossi for any contact which occurred and any consequence of such contact. Imo and that of others Rossi did not actually give him room to stay on the track, and yes imo Rossi should have been penalised for the Gibernau Jerez 2005 pass and MM for the Lorenzo Jerez 2013 pass where the non-offending riders managed to avoid putting their bikes down.

Gaz said:

If you and I are driving beside one another on the freeway, and I start to come into your lane what is the end result?

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There's many possible end results. I can honk at you, accelerate, brake until I'm behind you, or sideswipe your car with mine. You have no control over the action(s) I chose to take in response to you coming into my lane.

I'm not comparing the Marc/Wilairot incident to Rossi/Marc @ Sepang because I'm upset over Marc not getting a harsher penalty. RD made the call and that's that. It's done and dusted. It's some of you that cannot accept RD's decision made at Sepang, even though no matter how long you're upset about it, the decision will never change.

moto vudu said:

I'm not comparing the Marc/Wilairot incident to Rossi/Marc @ Sepang because I'm upset over Marc not getting a more harsh penalty. RD made the call and that's that. It's done and dusted. It's some of you that cannot accept RD's decision made at Sepang, even though no matter how long you're upset about it, the decision will never change.

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We all appreciate it will never change, just as it seems you will never refrain from defending the indefensible.

The ramifications of the end of season 2015 brouhaha also continue, particularly for a great, if not as great as Rossi, rider in Jorge Lorenzo and the most longstanding Rossi stalwart on here correctly identifies me as "sour" over what he freely admits was a campaign by Rossi against Lorenzo. In the circumstances I see no reason at all for Rossi's sins to be forgiven, or for letting your defense of him pass undisputed.

JPSLotus said:

I don't think you really understand how good Marc Marquez is, nor do half the people following GP. Well they get he is good, but they're not comprehending how good this kid really is. He is the only guy on the grid that can take a bike that's eh, and make it look like a true championship winning bike. If you put him on the GSX-RR, he would have won multiple races already. It's why Vinales isn't as good as people assume. Since he'll be on the Sherpa M1, the bike will make him look better than he actually is. I actually wish MM signed with Ducati as he is the perfect match for that bike.

MM is almost at the alien pantheon of riders. A title win this year will solidify it for me. Stoner was the last alien, and before him, I'd say Wayne Rainey. VR while very good in his prime, was never an alien rider.

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Agreed. I was waiting for something like last season to really see how good he is, and the answer surprised me on many levels. Mostly on how well he handled and moved on from the whole Rossi scandal. It apparently didn't affect him in a negative way, rather it made him stronger, wiser, better.

By the way, the Honda stresses the front, can be a good or bad thing apparently. Wonder if Rossi had any idea of that FACT when he accused MM of screwing with him at PI, deliberately slowing the pace? Where's J4, this is evidence for debate. Let me guess the bopper reply: false false, hater, hater.

Really, so now we know MM was just using his head and giving the tire a chance to make it to the end. Then pulls out a blinding last lap to win. ....... brilliant.

But this is something important to remember for next year, before handing the championship to MM. The Honda stresses the front, much more than the Yamaha. Lorenzo is out of the way. Advantage VR. New spec Michelins on the way. I predict it now, conservation of the front will be the name of the game for 2017. I have confidence in MM though, afterall he did it before in an epic race, he is the more adaptable of the two, but it wont be easy.

moto vudu said:

There's many possible end results. I can honk at you, accelerate, brake until I'm behind you, or sideswipe your car with mine. You have no control over the action(s) I chose to take in response to you coming into my lane.

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Yes I do.

I can keep driving you to the edge of the road.

I can park across in front of you.

I can accelerate and stop in front of you (ie. brake check)

I can decide to maintain my path as it was, after all, an accident as I was distracted by my phone.

I could give you the finger and go about my merry way.

See, you can try to drive me back into my lane but I can just as readily decide no way, stuff you I shall continue to drive you to the edge of the roadway.

I do however notice that you chose to ignore the other example but that is ok as it was an extreme example of a decision taken that had severe consequences that were not expected when the trigger got pulled.

moto vudu said:

I'm not comparing the Marc/Wilairot incident to Rossi/Marc @ Sepang because I'm upset over Marc not getting a harsher penalty. RD made the call and that's that. It's done and dusted. It's some of you that cannot accept RD's decision made at Sepang, even though no matter how long you're upset about it, the decision will never change.

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And what harsher penalty did he deserve given that he broke NO written rules (remember that the rules are written and not moral).

And before you throw the 'but Mike Webb said' into the argument his comments were very poor within a judicial sense and he actually said “Despite what Marquez said we think he was deliberately trying to affect the pace of Valentino. However he didn't actually break any rules. Whatever we think about the spirit of the championship, according to the rule book he didn't make contact. His passes were clean. He rode within the rules."

The key word there is THINK as that is not a factual finding but a supposition or opinion as were it a factual finding he would have used words similar to 'we FOUND that' but he also clearly states that 'he rode within the rules' which quite simply means that MM cannot and should not be punished for a legal action. To you and many who bleed yellow (and yes, even some riders agreed) MM broke some unwritten moral rule shared by riders (again, not all) but a moral rule is not enforceable within the written rules that govern the sport. You do not have to like it one bit but the fact is that only one rider was found to have broken a written rule and that rider was duly punished.

But back to your call for harsher treatement, what would you suggest and given that VR's 'crime' was the worse (as found by the judiciary) how would this then translate to Rossi, or (as I suspect) you feel that Rossi's punishment should be lesser as you feel that MM was the one and only protagonist and that Rossi was 'backed into a corner' of sorts