GoPro Motorrad Grand Prix Deutschland 2016 spoiler and ....

J4rn0 said:

Did Michelin do anything special for Rossi? Or rather for Honda and Yamaha? How the heck would you know?

Feel free to believe wahtever you want, but don't call them facts, they remain arbitrary conclusions. There are other facts that could lead to opposite arbitrary conclusions -- like the lemon tire Rossi got from Michelin at Valencia 2006 and in a couple other races that season, which could hardly be called special treatment, at least in the favorable sense you give to the word.

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How do you know he had a lemon tyre in Valencia 2006, he might just have .... himself as he saw Hayden blast off and made a mistake.

JPSLotus said:

According to Mat Oxley, Rossi told the team to put the intermediates on the second bike.

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That's a daft decision on his part. Personally I don't see the point in inters at this level. It's either wet or a dry line. The wet tyres can last long enough on a drying track not to warrant coming in for inters.

JPSLotus said:

According to Mat Oxley, Rossi told the team to put the intermediates on the second bike.

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Yep, in the interview on crash.net they said they made the decision as a team. They didn't think they'd be able to make slicks work after what happened on Friday. I can understand that, but I believe the temperatures during the race were a little higher than what they were on Friday. However, Rossi said that after he left the pits he found it difficult to get heat and a good feeling from the intermediates so maybe it would've been more difficult if he had the slicks.

J4rn0 said:

Hmm, all this is hardly an answer and you know it. Are you turning into a kind political fundamentalist, replying according to "allegiance" rather than according to reason? Assuming I have that "allegiance", because I've been very critical of Valentino's own conspiracy theory. I understand Rossi's campaign against Lorenzo has made you sour, but why give up common sense because of that.

I didn't read the whole thread, but again: the very simple facts (some of them debatable, but that's secondary) that you listed, even if accepted in toto, can never support the mentioned conspiracy theory, which remains a completely arbitrary conclusion.

It's like saying that since you may like vanilla ice cream (fact) and the local ice cream parlour last week stopped selling vanilla (fact), then there is a conspiracy against you to prevent you from enjoying your favorite ice cream (ops... false!). It's a classic false syllogism, because the link drawn between the facts and the conclusion is arbitrary -- it's false in any language and in any logic system.

Someone called these "sylligisms". Why fall into that kind of pit.

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It was I who raised "syllogisms" I believe.

It's OK J4rn0. I still largely love your work, and oddly you and Povol, and even I with my less sophisticated knowledge of the sport, still largely agree on Rossi's overall status, ie that he is one of the greats but not necessarily above other greats of the like of Hailwood, Roberts, Lawson, Rainey and perhaps Agostini and Doohan; I and perhaps even Povol have conceded he did look to have a status above those other greats at one time. I also agree that for most of his great career achievements he had no more advantages than have previously in the nature of things accrued to those of similar stature, including my man Doohan.

You are completely correct that I am "sour" about his "campaign" against Lorenzo which you appear to admit has occurred, and as I have said I am also in retrospect "sour" about his now obvious involvement in what Casey Stoner copped.

So you admit he has used his influence against Lorenzo, but deplore Povol for speculating that he may have been involved in off track manipulation or that manipulation in his favour might have occurred, which I myself said was an open question rather than proved in any case?

As I said in response to MV rather than you, there is absolutely no doubt that Dorna have multiply finagled the tyres over the last decade or more with various rationales, mostly spurious imo. Incompetence is indeed, as with most human endeavours, more likely than conspiracy, but I do think with the tyre change in 2012 Casey Stoner being disadvantaged was at least a welcome corollary consequence.

As Birdman has said in my defence, I have only ever advocated all riders and marques having suitable tyres available to them, and I disapproved of the control tyre from the get-go. You may remember I didn't really have a problem with Rossi wanting to procure the Bridgestones for 2008 per se either, in the numerous and interminable tyre wars threads back then.

Richy56 said:

That's a daft decision on his part. Personally I don't see the point in inters at this level. It's either wet or a dry line. The wet tyres can last long enough on a drying track not to warrant coming in for inters.

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Right, and that's basically the advice that Michelin gave. However, Yamaha tried the slicks on the drying track on Friday and found themselves way off the pace. They thought intermediates would be better for their bike.

moto vudu said:

Right, and that's basically the advice that Michelin gave. However, Yamaha tried the slicks on the drying track on Friday and found themselves way off the pace. They thought intermediates would be better for their bike.

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Yeah ok but the inters were slower than their pace on a cool track on slicks. Rossi was one of the last to come in, his team should have made that call but were too .... scared of the godfathers wrath if it backfired.

Rossi's ego was bigger than the result

Richy56 said:

Yeah ok but the inters were slower than their pace on a cool track on slicks. Rossi was one of the last to come in, his team should have made that call but were too .... scared of the godfathers wrath if it backfired.

Rossi's ego was bigger than the result

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We know now that the team had time to change Rossi's 2nd bike to slicks, but during the race they didn't know when Rossi would pit. Rossi could've pitted earlier only to find the team in the middle of a tire change.

Yes, I imagine Rossi would have been pissed if even though the decision was to run inters, his team went ahead and put slicks on and as a result he was even slower or crashed. They made the decision as a team, so they'll have to accept their 8th position as a team. lol I'm sure they'd love to go back in time, pit earlier, and try slicks on the 2nd bike.

He who dares wins | Motor Sport Magazine -Oxley's write-up.

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2016/07/18/2016_sachseningring_sunday_round_up_of.html - Kropo's write-up

moto vudu said:

We know now that the team had time to change Rossi's 2nd bike to slicks, but during the race they didn't know when Rossi would pit. Rossi could've pitted earlier only to find the team in the middle of a tire change.

Yes, I imagine Rossi would have been pissed if even though the decision was to run inters, his team went ahead and put slicks on and as a result he was even slower or crashed. They made the decision as a team, so they'll have to accept their 8th position as a team. lol I'm sure they'd love to go back in time, pit earlier, and try slicks on the 2nd bike.

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Damage is done, they know they ...... up, they helped marc increase his lead and they know the wc is pretty much over for them.

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The Hondas stress the front tire more than most other bikes on the grid. Crutchlow's crew chief, Christophe 'Beefy' Bourguignon, told Neil Morrison, "We always use a harder front tyre than other people and probably we generate more heat. This is a disadvantage in normal conditions but I would say also that when Marc and Cal go for it, they go for it. They can ride on the limit and they have the talent to do those things. The conditions also suited their riding style at this race track."

The Honda is short and tall, meaning the bike pitches forward much further under braking, stressing the front tire. This meant the front slick would come up to temperature much quicker despite the cool and damp conditions. Other bikes, especially the Yamaha and the Ducati, are longer and lower, and use less weight transfer in braking. This means they don't get the heat in the tire the way the Hondas do.

The Yamahas and Ducatis were condemned to use the intermediates, which in the conditions were a second or more slower than the Honda on slicks. The bitter irony for the Yamahas, especially, is that they probably would not have been faster on slicks than they were on intermediates.

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moto vudu said:

We know now that the team had time to change Rossi's 2nd bike to slicks, but during the race they didn't know when Rossi would pit. Rossi could've pitted earlier only to find the team in the middle of a tire change.

Yes, I imagine Rossi would have been pissed if even though the decision was to run inters, his team went ahead and put slicks on and as a result he was even slower or crashed. They made the decision as a team, so they'll have to accept their 8th position as a team. lol I'm sure they'd love to go back in time, pit earlier, and try slicks on the 2nd bike.

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The team told him on his pit board to come in earlier. He saw it cos you could see him look over

He chose to ignore it.

imunderandoverit said:

Damage is done, they know they ...... up, they helped marc increase his lead and they know the wc is pretty much over for them.

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If it was Rossi leading the championship by the same margin, I wouldn't feel comfortable declaring the wc won already. In sports, fortunes can change in an instant.

moto vudu said:

If it was Rossi leading the championship by the same margin, I wouldn't feel comfortable declaring the wc won already. In sports, fortunes can change in an instant.

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Yeah. It makes me thinking of F1 this season. 43 points lead down to 1 point. Or what happened in 2013 with Marc at phillip island or 2006 with rossi at valencia. Or last year aswell.

Richy56 said:

The team told him on his pit board to come in earlier. He saw it cos you could see him look over

He chose to ignore it.

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True, his lack of judgement there cost dearly, probably not a win but certainly a fair chance at a podium.

moto vudu said:

If it was Rossi leading the championship by the same margin, I wouldn't feel comfortable declaring the wc won already. In sports, fortunes can change in an instant.

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2010 could happen again , I hope not but never say never.

moto vudu said:

If it was Rossi leading the championship by the same margin, I wouldn't feel comfortable declaring the wc won already. In sports, fortunes can change in an instant.

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Rossi in his pomp leading by 50 points? Game over barring injury, which he was less liable to suffer than others. It is in close championships where he seems vulnerable/prone to error cf 2006, and perhaps 2015 and so far this year, although while still obviously extremely good I don't think he is in his pomp now.

MM is riding extremely well and in an extremely and surprisingly measured fashion, and has already sealed the deal on multiple occasions, including among the most dominant title wins ever in 2014. He as always can get injured, ask Mick Doohan, but the way he is riding he is less likely to suffer this than most others, and I extremely doubt he will be consistently out-ridden by his competitors over the second half of the season. He can afford at least one mechanical DNF, and while the bike may not be as well sorted as it could be particularly from the ECU/engine management point of view of view I wouldn't be counting on multiple mechanical dnfs from a factory Honda either.

michaelm said:

Rossi in his pomp leading by 50 points? Game over barring injury, which he was less liable to suffer than others. It is in close championships where he seems vulnerable/prone to error cf 2006, and perhaps 2015 and so far this year, although while still obviously extremely good I don't think he is in his pomp now.

MM is riding extremely well and in an extremely and surprisingly measured fashion, and has already sealed the deal on multiple occasions, including among the most dominant title wins ever in 2014. He as always can get injured, ask Mick Doohan, but the way he is riding he is less likely to suffer this than most others, and I extremely doubt he will be consistently out-ridden by his competitors over the second half of the season. He can afford at least one mechanical DNF, and while the bike may not be as well sorted as it could be particularly from the ECU/engine management point of view of view I wouldn't be counting on multiple mechanical dnfs from a factory Honda either.

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He just ran off track into the gravel at high speed. That could've resulted in a DNF. In Assen, he locked up the front in practice... that could've resulted in injury. Sure he's riding well, but some luck has been on his side.

If he wins the championship, he certainly deserves it. I'm just saying there is still a lot of points up for grabs and like Forrest Gump said... .... Happens.

I was all hyped after rossis pace this season. Better race pace better Q's. But it is over. Marc has the wc on lockdown and wont let it slip. 2016 wc already crown. Mr.93.

The Red Bull Ring next month is going to be extremely interesting. While it should in theory favor the Ducati, there's only two slow corners on the circuit, so it may favor the Honda better than anyone is expecting. Turns 3 thru 8 will allow the RCV to maintain momentum, and won't have them riding the front as heavily which would increase the tire wear.

moto vudu said:

He just ran off track into the gravel at high speed. That could've resulted in a DNF. In Assen, he locked up the front in practice... that could've resulted in injury. Sure he's riding well, but some luck has been on his side.

If he wins the championship, he certainly deserves it. I'm just saying there is still a lot of points up for grabs and like Forrest Gump said... .... Happens.

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MM tends to figure out where the limits are in the practice sessions. He crashed a few times back at COTA in April, which put him in a unique position of knowing where the limit was with regards to the Michelin front.

It's also likely we're about to find out Stoner will be racing at the Red Bull Ring.