FIM To Review Jerez Accident

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Why the hell do people bring up F1 in motorcycle racing? Very dumb.



Ren, (regardless of ur good faith boredom) ur premise is so out of wack then wonder why u've spent pages defending it? See Rob.



Buddy Woody, u said Stoner should hav cleared the way, then ur posts got longer and longer trying to defend a position that is indefensible.
 
Did anybody had a chance to see this?



If you read report Larry Tate’s MotoGP race report this week, you’ll remember that Casey Stoner criticised race marshals for neglecting to give him a push to restart his bike after colliding with Valentino Rossi, who lost the front end and crashed just ahead of Stoner.



The Australian was miffed because he felt Valentino Rossi was given preferential treatment after he got a push and went on to race, while he claimed he was left to dry, having to attempt to start his bike on his own.



Well, this amateur video shot by a fan in the stands tells a slightly different story. In it, we see Rossi getting barely a nudge from the marshals (indicating that his bike probably didn’t stall in the crash), and several marshals pushing Stoner, one of them staying with him until they're out of view of the camera.



Maybe Stoner takes Mythbuster Adam Savage’s motto, “I reject your reality and substitute my own” too literally.



There was also a small video given in the article..

http://cmgonline.com/content/view/3404/81/



any thoughts?
 
povol said:
Not true, over the years it has been shown time and time again that Rossi does not have the ability to pick up his bike once it is down. Without the marshals help, he would have been out.
Click to expand...



Wrong. Watch the video Pov
<








...of past years as well
<
 
Gaz said:
But Woody, is this not what Stoner did buy giving more room to allow a safe pass?



Aside from Stoner stopping dead in his tracks and waiting with the blinker going to turn right, what more could he have done?Stoner was as committed to the corner as he wanted to be in that situation and for him to suddenly change his line or trajectory would have increased his risk. The situation (some may say fact) is that the onus being on the overtaking rider it is their responsibility to minimise risk and in this case Stoner created a bigger margin than would normally have been available, then .... happened.









Gaz
Click to expand...





Stoner saw Rossi overcooking it diving inside.... now if he knew tha,t he could of braked hard and counter move by cutting into the inside line, but Stoner instead decided to take the outside which could mean he wasn't willing to easily give up his position as he claimed in interviews where he said he was saving his tires and wasn't worry about getting passed at that point in the race.
 
Jumkie said:
Ok. Let me say this again, I first and foremost blame race direction for their weak, if any, enforcement of professional race etiquette (you may laugh, that is until something like Elias taking out Rossi happens again, then you will be asking for his head on a platter).
Click to expand...



Already happened, but Elias didn't even have to knock him over. Turkey 2007. Rossi was sabotaged by Michelin, and during the race, Bridgestone-shod Toni Elias put a relatively hard pass on Rossi. Rossi chummed the waters by demanding Elias' head on a plate. The boppers went postal. IIRC, the incident was barely a footnote in the race report--barely worthy of the highlight reel.
 
Pov, if u dint see the video by now, geez. Its been posted like 20 times already, again by Ajith.



Oh, and that dude Larry Tate, can he hate on Stoner and suck Rossi's .... any more?
 
Jumkie said:
Why the hell do people bring up F1 in motorcycle racing? Very dumb.



Ren, (regardless of ur good faith boredom) ur premise is so out of wack then wonder why u've spent pages defending it? See Rob.



Buddy Woody, u said Stoner should hav cleared the way, then ur posts got longer and longer trying to defend a position that is indefensible.
Click to expand...



If your understanding of engine power is purey based on top speed charts, then i say your a plain and simple ........



Nice try but still...
 
Ajith said:
any thoughts?
Click to expand...



My thought is that Stoner's remarks are inconsequential. Suppo and Stoner teamed up blame the marshals b/c they were enraged by the ontrack maneuvers, and both of them knew that slagging Valentino on the air was a precarious strategy. Marshals shouldn't be bump starting people and the Honda can't be easily bump started anyway. The marshals should not be under investigation.



The FIM's fascination with the personal biases and the actions of individual marshals at Jerez indicates one of two things (or perhaps both). 1) The MSMA basically lead the FIM around on a leash. The 800lb gorilla called HRC has demanded (ranting and raving) that the marshals be subjected to the most intense scrutiny. The FIM follow orders to keep the peace within the GPC. 2) The FIM understand that they do not enforce professional conduct, and they are quite happy to create a distraction by shining the spotlight of scrutiny on the marshals.



Rossi tried to make a pass from 5-10m behind in the wet. He missed the apex, lost the front, and took out a championship contender during the early stages of the race when there was very little reward. Why are we talking about the marshals? I'm not keen to place any blame on Stoner after what happened to him, but his comments about the marshals (echoed by Suppo) have been the perfect distraction for Valentino Rossi, Ducati, and all of the people within the GPC who are invested Rossi's his success. Casey's whining, though perfectly understandable, may have created the distraction that got Rossi off the hook.
 
Jumkie said:
Pov, if u dint see the video by now, geez. Its been posted like 20 times already, again by Ajith.



Oh, and that dude Larry Tate, can he hate on Stoner and suck Rossi's .... any more?
Click to expand...

It seems that all the official Dorna vids have been zapped. I have seen them and it looked to me like Rossi got help picking up his bike. In the fan video on this thread, it also appears to confirm that he got help picking up the bike. The corner workers arrive at the 14second mark, the bike is still on the ground at the 15 second mark and you can see marshals bent over, apparently assisting in the picking up of the bike.The vid i posted from 09 clearly shows Rossi could not lift the bike on his own and i have commented on it before over the years.
 
mylexicon said:
Rossi tried to make a pass from 5-10m behind in the wet. He missed the apex, lost the front, and took out a championship contender during the early stages of the race when there was very little reward. Why are we talking about the marshals? I'm not keen to place any blame on Stoner after what happened to him, but his comments about the marshals (echoed by Suppo) have been the perfect distraction for Valentino Rossi, Ducati, and all of the people within the GPC who are invested Rossi's his success. Casey's whining, though perfectly understandable, may have created the distraction that got Rossi off the hook.
Click to expand...



We've said this a number of times now. That's the one thing I wish Stoner wouldn't have aired out. But it goes without saying, whatever Stoner says, its wrong! In this case, it really has distracted from what is the root cause of the event. I can't say it enough, race direction are weak, and this will continue. This event has done nothing but reassure anybody wanting to employ dive bomb racing tactics, that its still allowable and encouraged.



I've also said, until riders decide to race Rossi like Rossi, this will never change. How much are you willing to bet me that if we see Rossi punted a few times that the rules and enforcement of professional race craft will be an issue and investigations launched?
 
mylexicon said:
My thought is that Stoner's remarks are inconsequential. Suppo and Stoner teamed up blame the marshals b/c they were enraged by the ontrack maneuvers, and both of them knew that slagging Valentino on the air was a precarious strategy. Marshals shouldn't be bump starting people and the Honda can't be easily bump started anyway. The marshals should not be under investigation.



The FIM's fascination with the personal biases and the actions of individual marshals at Jerez indicates one of two things (or perhaps both). 1) The MSMA basically lead the FIM around on a leash. The 800lb gorilla called HRC has demanded (ranting and raving) that the marshals be subjected to the most intense scrutiny. The FIM follow orders to keep the peace within the GPC. 2) The FIM understand that they do not enforce professional conduct, and they are quite happy to create a distraction by shining the spotlight of scrutiny on the marshals.



Rossi tried to make a pass from 5-10m behind in the wet. He missed the apex, lost the front, and took out a championship contender during the early stages of the race when there was very little reward. Why are we talking about the marshals? I'm not keen to place any blame on Stoner after what happened to him, but his comments about the marshals (echoed by Suppo) have been the perfect distraction for Valentino Rossi, Ducati, and all of the people within the GPC who are invested Rossi's his success. Casey's whining, though perfectly understandable, may have created the distraction that got Rossi off the hook.
Click to expand...



+1



I have a feeling the boppers are about to go postal again.
 
Jumkie said:
Buddy Woody, u said Stoner should hav cleared the way, then ur posts got longer and longer trying to defend a position that is indefensible.
Click to expand...



Jums, my position is that Rossi shouldn't have attempted the pass, once he did, being in the middle of a race, stoner didn't make enough room like he would have if it happened on the road. It was a racing incident as enough caution from the passer and the passee was not shown to avoid the crash. Whether or not a crash occurs, the onus sits with both riders. The one who causes it and the one who doesn't anticipate it. In the driving tests here in Oz, car and bike, you lose points for not assuming someone someone will take you out and not riding or driving that way. This is regardless of whether not you are in the wrong.

You don't take the sAme caution on a track and therefore racing incidents happen. Ultimately the passer is in the wrong though.

Ultimately the pass was too ambitious which is the actual cause of the crash. A rider is not expected to unreasonably make room for another.
 
Jumkie said:
We've said this a number of times now. That's the one thing I wish Stoner wouldn't have aired out. But it goes without saying, whatever Stoner says, its wrong! In this case, it really has distracted from what is the root cause of the event. I can't say it enough, race direction are weak, and this will continue. This event has done nothing but reassure anybody wanting to employ dive bomb racing tactics, that its still allowable and encouraged.



I've also said, until riders decide to race Rossi like Rossi, this will never change. How much are you willing to bet me that if we see Rossi punted a few times that the rules and enforcement of professional race craft will be an issue and investigations launched?
Click to expand...



That sounds easy enough, one has to wonder why it's not happened yet, (assuming Rossi's conduct on track is as outrageous as you say, volunteers should not be in short demand). Maybe it's not so easy after all, to race Rossi like Rossi?
biggrin.gif




Agree about Stoner -- instead of stressing Rossi's blunder, he brought attention on another topic that turns out to be irrelevant. Funny thing is that Lorenzo did the same! Now isn't that strange...
huh.gif
 
SuperShinya56 said:
Stoner saw Rossi overcooking it diving inside.... now if he knew tha,t he could of braked hard and counter move by cutting into the inside line, but Stoner instead decided to take the outside which could mean he wasn't willing to easily give up his position as he claimed in interviews where he said he was saving his tires and wasn't worry about getting passed at that point in the race.
Click to expand...





SS, congrats on teh reasonable post mate (or matette, whatever is the correct
<
).



Yes CS could have hit the brake harder, chosen a tighter turn in angle with greater leane to do the 'over and under', but we say teh results of to much brake and to much lean from Rossi so I suspect that CS' move was to take the safer line and follow Rossi. If you look at the video closely he does not try to go around the outside of Rossi but is on a line commenurate with the late entry cause by creation of room and is actually trying to 'fall in behind' Rossi to follow.



FWIW - I do think Stoner was playing smart, very smart at the time and it simply blew up in his face through no fault of his own.









Gaz
 
michaelm said:
I was aware of this when I posted and totally understand it, and aware that it is also a matter of point of view, but wasn't a senna fan partly for this reason.



What I don't think is reasonable is for people to criticise the competitors for getting annoyed
<
.
Click to expand...

I agree and when I said crying won't help I wasn't refering to Stoner as a whiner or anything like that, just an anology. I could have also said not doing anything but fighting back won't help. I respect that we all have different view points and have our own interpretation of what aggressive riding is.
 
michaelm said:
I didn't read this part of your post in my previous reply and do take exception to it. Making an error and taking a competitor out in no way constitutes kicking their ... and nor does responding to being taken out as stoner did on this occasion constitute crying about it. He was making a fair fist of replying to rossi and his critics this year before some ..... took him out in this race. When he has kcked rossi's ... in the past rather than this being acknowledged he was vilified for it.
Click to expand...
I'm talking about their history and not just this incident, he's complained about him before and I'm sure he will continue to get passed aggressively whenever Rossi has the chance and this is what I'm talking about. Complaining won't help and it will probably only encourage your antagonizer. All I'm saying is STFU and race because if you complain to much people will stop listening to you when it matters most, like now when you have a serious beef and loss of points. I like both of them and neither is my favorite but I'd much rather watch a race with Rossi in it than Stoner.
 

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