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I haven't really noted anyone seriously calling for Rossi to be "punished" per se. But folks are censuring Rossi

for because he's the rider considered to be the top in the business - and under the circumstances - should know

better than to make such



A- a high-risk pass -

B- on a bike with a notoriously unstable front end -

C- in only his 2nd race on the bike -

D- in the rain -

E- only a few laps into the race when the tires were not up to temperature -

F- knowing full well that he was not going to be able to compete for the top spot -



G- especially because he's so hindered by his wonk shoulder
<




If it were only a question of one or two "poor risk" factors the move might be merely questionable

- but with all those elements strung together - any clear-eyed person has to conclude that Rossi's move

wasn't daring or ballsy - it was narcissistically thoughtless and irresponsible.



Let's not forget the only time Rossi ever rode the bike in the rain was in morning warmup. He's never rode in the wet and never rode with rain tires on.

He essentially was riding a bike he had virtually no experience on. Stoner knew this and when he stated the Ambition over talent comment I suspect this was part of what he was inferring to.
 
One thing people do NOT understand, these rider hold racing points in much higher regard than their own safety (much LESS the safety of others, and even less, the safety of those they view as RIVALS). It’s not enough to expect that the possibility of crashing is enough of a deterrent. They will take that risk. But when you start docking of points, for these mean, that really hurts.



Jum, you are right in saying they regard championship points over anything else. As there has been no real enforcement of the rules lately with regard to riding standards, I agree that they probably can't impose any sanctions against Rossi. As you say, maybe it is time to sit them all down & draw a line in the sand.



I still beleive suspended race bans are an excellent deterent. In Rossi's case it wouldn't have impacted on his championship asperations by removing any championship points, but if he repeated them same mistake again, he risks losing the chance at 75 points. You pretty much get one free punch, within reason, but the second will come with consequences. If a suspended ban is put on a rider, it may encourage their employer or sponsors having a quite word as it will impact them quite badly to, whereas a ride through has no real impact on anyone but the rider. Do you think Ducati would be applauding Vale at the end of the race if he had a suspended ban on him when he had this latest racing incident which would have resulted in him missing races.
 
Let's not forget the only time Rossi ever rode the bike in the rain was in morning warmup. He's never rode in the wet and never rode with rain tires on.

He essentially was riding a bike he had virtually no experience on. Stoner knew this and when he stated the Ambition over talent comment I suspect this was part of what he was inferring to.



I haven't read (or recall) anybody saying Rossi meant to take out Stoner. Have you? However, I do believe Rossi tried to buzz him. Its simple intimidation, and its worked for Rossi in the past. I know you don't believe Rossi using this tactic Talps, but its my opinion that he uses this from several tactics to beat his rivals.



Rossi should NOT be signed out, but rather ANYBODY should be signed out if race direction wasn't so weak in maintaining a certain level of racecraft among its professional competitors. I've seen other riders penalized for less stuff, ie John Hopkins. You guys keep telling us just how extremely talented he is, surely that talent and experience is aware that a move like that dive bomb would end in a crash. I won't take credit, but JohnnyK was telling me that Rossi should have exercised more caution considering that he had zero tests and practice sessions under wet conditions on the Ducati (except for a small warm up).



Rossi isn't the only one employing dive bomb moves putting other riders in the predicament that they must move out of the way. Rossi fans and media alike celebrated what amounted to be an out of control dive bomb at Laguna 08. People still today celebrate it as a supreme calculated racecraft maneuver. Do you? But it was NOT. Everybody knows these guys make mistakes, in fact Talps; the crash this weekend was a mistake (the only thing here left to debate is if that mistake was caused from overly aggressive riding or a good faith mistake). But my opnion is, it wasn't an ordinary mistake. It happened while trying to make an overly aggressive pass. It’s this type of maneuvers that is NOT racecraft. Spies, only his second year in the series, has been putting on a clinic on proper race craft passing.



Certain riders have a reputation for aggressive riding. Simonchelli, DeAngelis, Rossi, You may add names because we all know who they are), etc. It’s not simply a blind hate for Rossi. It’s a simple undeniable observation that these men employ a tactic that other riders chose not to use. Would you say fore example that Edwards, Nicky, Dovi ride aggressively? No right? They don’t have that reputation. I BLAME RACE DIRECTION first and foremost! They have almost never applied any sanctions to curb such poor racing etiquette and racecraft. I know you may laugh at this because you are such a staunch Rossi fan. Like J4rno, who seems so normal; yet is so out of touch with reality when it comes to Ducati's all out blitz to provide solutions in development, or as he says, all routine nothing exceptional is happening. You are similar, you seem rather smart in some posts, but in others are so far on the extreme of reality that I must conclude you are crazy.



Ok. Let me say this again, I first and foremost blame race direction for their weak, if any, enforcement of professional race etiquette (you may laugh, that is until something like Elias taking out Rossi happens again, then you will be asking for his head on a platter). These aggressive riders do it with impunity because race direct never steps in. And may I add, I disagree with my friend Steeeeeeve in his assessment that crashing is the best deterrent to curb aggressive and reckless racing. NO sir, because these men are not like us, self-preservation takes a back seat. These men are like sharks, pit bulls, and racing is their blood.



Rossi's attempt to make an aggressive pass was reckless. It’s this type of reckless moves that should be addressed. Sadly, as in life, we are bickering about the schoolyard drama that ensued or splitting hairs about the marshals, while ignoring the actual root cause of this entire episode. We've been lucky so far; none of these recent aggressive moves have got people hurt, but its short sighted, because that is a result of dumb luck.
 

I agree with all of this.



I would just like to see some acknowledgement from rossi fans that even just in the last 2 races he is guilty of several things for which they censure stoner, when stoner has put no other rider at risk for several years. Part of rossi's vaunted racecraft is a willingness , like the equally supremely talented ayrton senna, to take things further than others. If part of your tactical advantage is a willingness to crash into another rider, it is an unfair advantage, and the rider on rider skirmishes that we all enjoy so much require an element of trust from both riders, which both stoner and lorenzo no longer have in rossi, not unjustifiably imo.
 
People mention trust, am wondering how many like racing near simoncelli, am sure Dovi wasnt happy about been used as an extra brake in qutar!



Personally Id hate to see hard moves frowned upon the whole moto 2 series seems to be based on it.



Also its gonna be difficult to determine the difference between a simple racing incident and something thats dangerous, just ending with riders on the floor isnt a suitable criteria, we sometimes see some excellent saves or riders just beenmforced off line, these moves could be deemed more dangerous than some one unfortunalty coming off around other riders, I think its a tough call from race directions point of view and probably one of the reasons no matter what the series or who is involved sanctions are few and far between.



I seem to remember Lorenzo copping a ban in 05 I bellieve when he hit pedders but only lorenzo fell at sachsenring?
 
I agree with all of this.



I would just like to see some acknowledgement from rossi fans that even just in the last 2 races he is guilty of several things for which they censure stoner, when stoner has put no other rider at risk for several years. Part of rossi's vaunted racecraft is a willingness , like the equally supremely talented ayrton senna, to take things further than others. If part of your tactical advantage is a willingness to crash into another rider, it is an unfair advantage, and the rider on rider skirmishes that we all enjoy so much require an element of trust from both riders, which both stoner and lorenzo no longer have in rossi, not unjustifiably imo.

You know I've heard it said several times around racing circles,"the secret to winning is finding the unfair advantage". I'm not trying to pick on you or insult you but do you comprehend what you wrote about Ayrton and Rossi, connect the dots-both of them are loved, why do you think that is. The answer is in your post. While I think Casey is the most talented man on two wheels, he just doesn't interest me besides his speed, he doesn't have anything to offer me besides his times during quali. I want to see a rider who says .... you I want it more and I'm going to take it. All of these guys fall and .... happens it's racing! People don't want just speed, they want passion with it. Now there is a fine line there and victory should belong to the man who is willing to ride that line the longest. I like Rossi and yes he ...... up but like I said it happens, it's racing. When a guy is constantly kicking your ..., crying won't help, you have to fight back, look at Lorenzo.
 
You know I've heard it said several times around racing circles,"the secret to winning is finding the unfair advantage". I'm not trying to pick on you or insult you but do you comprehend what you wrote about Ayrton and Rossi, connect the dots-both of them are loved, why do you think that is. The answer is in your post. While I think Casey is the most talented man on two wheels, he just doesn't interest me besides his speed, he doesn't have anything to offer me besides his times during quali. I want to see a rider who says .... you I want it more and I'm going to take it. All of these guys fall and .... happens it's racing! People don't want just speed, they want passion with it. Now there is a fine line there and victory should belong to the man who is willing to ride that line the longest. I like Rossi and yes he ...... up but like I said it happens, it's racing. When a guy is constantly kicking your ..., crying won't help, you have to fight back, look at Lorenzo.

I was aware of this when I posted and totally understand it, and aware that it is also a matter of point of view, but wasn't a senna fan partly for this reason.



What I don't think is reasonable is for people to criticise the competitors for getting annoyed
<
.
 
You know I've heard it said several times around racing circles,"the secret to winning is finding the unfair advantage". I'm not trying to pick on you or insult you but do you comprehend what you wrote about Ayrton and Rossi, connect the dots-both of them are loved, why do you think that is. The answer is in your post. While I think Casey is the most talented man on two wheels, he just doesn't interest me besides his speed, he doesn't have anything to offer me besides his times during quali. I want to see a rider who says .... you I want it more and I'm going to take it. All of these guys fall and .... happens it's racing! People don't want just speed, they want passion with it. Now there is a fine line there and victory should belong to the man who is willing to ride that line the longest. I like Rossi and yes he ...... up but like I said it happens, it's racing. When a guy is constantly kicking your ..., crying won't help, you have to fight back, look at Lorenzo.



Interesting post IMO.



On one hand you say that you want passion to be displayed by riders, yet you then offer a criticism of those that show passion.













Gaz
 
This is absolute rubbish. On both occasions, Rossi did not break any rule/regulation or whatever. If riders are no longer allowed to ride aggressively and instead have to ride round with cotton wool between them and the next person, the sport will not be worth watching. Just about all accidents are avoidable - BUT THEY STILL HAPPEN. It is racing. These guys are paid to push bikes to the limit and occasionally they go beyond. There was barely any difference between Rossi's pass and Simonchelli's pass on Stoner - both had Stoner running wide, taking an outside line. One stuck, one didn't. Stoner didn't have to keep as close as he did if he thought that Rossi was at risk of falling/out of control. It was a racing incident. Move on, next issue.



Come on .. get real. So just because someones making a move, Stoner's supposed to ease off the throttle and let em through?

What a load of bollocks. May as well draw the race result out of a hat.
 
I posted this in another forum and thought I would post it here to increase post count (and well it is kinda relevant to this thread as well)



Marshalls, love them or hate them will do the best they can within a given circumstance but it is clear in the original videos (since pulled by DORNA) that most marshalls ran direct to Rossi (one exception). It is not true to say that he was trapped at that point as he had been freed by Stoner lifting teh Honda which released the pressure on Rossi's leg, so yes both riders were free.



However, Rossi was nearer the marshalls and as such became their focal point either deliberately given whom he was (ie. many of these marshalls will be telling the story for years to come) or accidently by being closer. Once Rossi was underway on teh original videos all marshalls start to return to point leaving Stoner alone, one quickly realising and returning to Stoner who frantically gestures with his left arm. Others respond and they attempt to push the Honda, albeit for a short period of time on the track, with a sole marshall going above and beyond and to this marshall I am sure Stoner holds no issues (as it appears to be the same that went straight to him)



For me, the marshalls likely did not deliberately play favourites but got a little caught up in the moment.



Now to the point I feel is being overlooked and that is within the Marshall discussion component.



As a marshall (and I like many have done many meetings) the crucial component of your safety is not necessarily your positioning on track (or off) but the yellow flags waving prior to your point and the incident. This flag is waved to alert riders to an incident within the upcoming sector/s and teh rider is to slow down and be alert as the flag does not describe the type of incident or it's severity.



In short, when a yellow flag incident occurs for each rider who passes through that sector under a yellow flag, their lap time should (in theory given teh Clerk of Course briefing) be affected by being slower. I wonder how many of the GP riders times were slower at this incident or in fact at any incident throughout this and other situations.



For me, the riders do play a part in marshall safety as theoretically they should slow down under yellow flag, yet most if not all do not and as such I would suggest that this is also an area that can be addressed by DORNA and the racing officialdom











Gaz
 
[Start Bopping
<
]

Stoner said he was not pushing and taking it easy

Rossi said he wasn't planning to pass Casey at the corner and braked deep (compared to Casey ?)



Does this mean, Stoner took it too easy to let Rossi pass, which confused Rossi and he had to dive inside or else they would have crashed like Marques & Cluzel in Moto2?







[End Bopping]



Running away and Hiding in a corner
<
 
[Start Bopping
<
]

Stoner said he was not pushing and taking it easy

Rossi said he wasn't planning to pass Casey at the corner and braked deep (compared to Casey ?)



Does this mean, Stoner took it too easy to let Rossi pass, which confused Rossi and he had to dive inside or else they would have crashed like Marques & Cluzel in Moto2?







[End Bopping]



Running away and Hiding in a corner
<



Ooohhh, I get it now. Stoner sucked Rossi in and therefore it was Stoners fault Rossi crashed.
 
Come on .. get real. So just because someones making a move, Stoner's supposed to ease off the throttle and let em through?

What a load of bollocks. May as well draw the race result out of a hat.



Think again. Not saying that at all. How many times does it happen that bikes go into a corner 3 abreast and somthing happens to an inside bike and the outside bike(s) get taken with it. In that case, you don't expect anyone to give ground, it's put down as a racing incident which had unfortunate results. This is the same with Stoner, he was the outside bike going through a corner in the wet. It's a higher risk place to be (regardless of how he ended up there). There are two ways to avoid the ensuing accident, firstly, the pass is never made in the first place. But it was so secondly, if the outside rider has an inkling of doubt about it, get themselves out of harms way. A racer isn't going to do this as it means losing ground in a race - which then leads to racing incidents being worse than they could have been. My view is that Stoner didn't do anything wrong, he did what any racer would do which was hold his line and make room. When Rossi went down, Stoner was then in the wrong place because of those two earlier decisions - one where Rossi decided to pass and the second where Stoner positioned himself through the corner.



I'm not shifting blame onto Stoner. Rossi tried the pass, failed and took him out. It's normal racing for someone to attempt a pass, aggressive or not, it is normal racing for the other rider not to concede to the pass unnecessarily, out of those two circumstances comes a lack of caution that might otherwise be shown in comparison to, for example, what you would see on a normal road. A racing incident results. On the road, both riders most probably would have been more cautious both in the selection of the time to pass and in the choices made once the other rider realised someone was passing. This is the point of my post. It was a racing incident.
 
Think again. Not saying that at all. How many times does it happen that bikes go into a corner 3 abreast and somthing happens to an inside bike and the outside bike(s) get taken with it. In that case, you don't expect anyone to give ground, it's put down as a racing incident which had unfortunate results. This is the same with Stoner, he was the outside bike going through a corner in the wet. It's a higher risk place to be (regardless of how he ended up there). There are two ways to avoid the ensuing accident, firstly, the pass is never made in the first place. But it was so secondly, if the outside rider has an inkling of doubt about it, get themselves out of harms way. A racer isn't going to do this as it means losing ground in a race - which then leads to racing incidents being worse than they could have been. My view is that Stoner didn't do anything wrong, he did what any racer would do which was hold his line and make room. When Rossi went down, Stoner was then in the wrong place because of those two earlier decisions - one where Rossi decided to pass and the second where Stoner positioned himself through the corner.



I'm not shifting blame onto Stoner. Rossi tried the pass, failed and took him out. It's normal racing for someone to attempt a pass, aggressive or not, it is normal racing for the other rider not to concede to the pass unnecessarily, out of those two circumstances comes a lack of caution that might otherwise be shown in comparison to, for example, what you would see on a normal road. A racing incident results. On the road, both riders most probably would have been more cautious both in the selection of the time to pass and in the choices made once the other rider realised someone was passing. This is the point of my post. It was a racing incident.





But Woody, is this not what Stoner did buy giving more room to allow a safe pass?



Aside from Stoner stopping dead in his tracks and waiting with the blinker going to turn right, what more could he have done?



Stoner was as committed to the corner as he wanted to be in that situation and for him to suddenly change his line or trajectory would have increased his risk. The situation (some may say fact) is that the onus being on the overtaking rider it is their responsibility to minimise risk and in this case Stoner created a bigger margin than would normally have been available, then .... happened.









Gaz
 
Ok, I'll say this on the subject: Clearly the marshals favored Rossi. Of this I have no doubt. HOWEVER, I don't think it’s their job/duty to help riders restart their bikes. Their first and ONLY concern is safety. In fact, I'm not even gonna say they are there to help the rider remount their bikes. They are NOT there to endanger their own lives. BTW, I'm not sure people are aware, but they are for the most part volunteers, no professional enthusiast willing to help. They should do NOTHING to endanger themselves. When they go out, it’s first to help the riders get out of harms way. Let me say this again, getting the riders back on the track is of ZERO priority, concern, or even their goal.



If they were required to help the riders get back on the track, it would create a situation for an inequitable response, as they guys are fans and volunteers. What has happened is we have (including riders) began to incorrectly think these guys are there to support riders in the racing endeavor, but that is INCORRECT! They are there to support the safety of downed riders and help (without endangering themselves) to maintain a safe track environment, PERIOD.



So regarding this investigation, no marshal should be sanctioned. If anything, they should first be thanked for volunteering, and reminded their duty does NOT include helping riders get back into the race. It’s a live track and anything can happen. So they are asked to act in a high dangerous environment and make split second decisions, the guiding principal should be safety, their first and then the riders. It’s a tough call, because the marshals are also selfless sometimes and the riders selfish. For the most part, self-preservation is not the goal of the riders, they would gladly compromise life and limp for the glory they so much seek. This is why we see riders soldier on with injuries hoping some quack doctor will put enough duct tape on their injury to get them back out in competition. It’s the same at the moment they go down. They are 99% of the time in an impact zone, the most dangerous parts of the track when they go down. And what is their first concern? Answer: To get back into the race. This is the mind of a racer. That is to be contrasted with the goal and supported provided by the marshals; as their concern is to get the rider to safety, a rider who is most of the time, out of his mind still focused on the race.



I kinda have started to feel sorry for the marshals in this case. Yeah, their desire to help Rossi as fans kicked in, almost comical, as one of them seemed to be patting Rossi at-a-boys while Rossi seemed annoyed and pushing him away (see the vid again from Rossi’s bike camera). Its almost as if the marshals forgot where they were and thought they were in the paddock fighting with other rabid Rossi fans to get a glimpse. But regardless of the favoritism shown, they are not to be blamed unless they did something to endanger the riders, which they did NOT.



I’m fine with Stoner being angry, because of the favoritism shown to Rossi, once the marshals crossed outside the line of what is their job, they should have applied their support equitably (which was already incorrect, and I will say, this is a very difficult debate position to defend because you are asking them to apply equally something that is already incorrect). I submit that the correct thing to have done was help them both up and check to see if they needed assistance to get out of the impact zone. If at that time Rossi and Stoner decided they would persist to stay in an impact zone while trying to get back on the track, the marshals should have LEFT them both to their own self-interests. If the riders so chose to endanger themselves by sitting their trackside trying to get back into the race, this is of ZERO concern to the marshals.



I just wanted to say Amen to this.
 
I thought it was Rossi that created gravity...but then we used to think that the universe revolved around our flat little planet too!

No seriously. Think about it. Don't just think that the theory was proposed by a Rossi fan (not a Stoner hater
<
). I think one issue I find with this forum is people are too preoccupied with who said something rather than, whether that particular point deserves merit or not (Your response to my theory is exactly stereotypical of what I mention).



Let's not get emotional. Think of all the possibilities. It can be true (most probable) that Rossi made a bone headed decision to pass. But, the theory I proposed is also not impossible. Even in the second case, I think still it was Rossi's mistake to not expect Stoner easing up as he should have noticed it following him for half a lap.



If you see anything wrong in what I proposed, let's argue objectively. It is a plea
 
No seriously. Think about it. Don't just think that the theory was proposed by a Rossi fan (not a Stoner hater
<
). I think one issue I find with this forum is people are too preoccupied with who said something against whether that particular point deserves merit or not (Your response to my theory is exactly stereotypical of what I mention).



Let's not get emotional. Think of all the possibilities. It can be true (most probable) that Rossi made a bone headed decision to pass. But, the theory I proposed is also not impossible. Even in the second case, I think still it was Rossi's mistake to not expect Stoner easing up as he should have noticed it following him for half a lap.



If you see anything wrong in what I proposed, let's argue objectively. It is a plea

The bottom line whatever his motive is that he couldn't have given rossi more room except by actually leaving the track as gaz implies.
 
But Woody, is this not what Stoner did buy giving more room to allow a safe pass?



Aside from Stoner stopping dead in his tracks and waiting with the blinker going to turn right, what more could he have done?



Stoner was as committed to the corner as he wanted to be in that situation and for him to suddenly change his line or trajectory would have increased his risk. The situation (some may say fact) is that the onus being on the overtaking rider it is their responsibility to minimise risk and in this case Stoner created a bigger margin than would normally have been available, then .... happened.





Gaz



Yes Stoner did do that, but he was also quoted as saying that he should have given more. It's racing, everything happens at high speed, a rider slowing suddenly could get hit from behind, there are a large number of variables which come into it on a race track. On the road, you would take more caution, on a track, add in the competitive nature of riders such that the most cautious option cannot be taken or isn't taken. This is how racing incidents are born. In most occasions, they wouldn't happen on the road in the same way, all the added variables on the track means that it sometimes ends up going wrong.



The last part of your sentence is absolutely correct - .... did happen, it could also have happened if Stoner had made room more aggressively, it's the nature of a racing incident.



To your point on where the onus lies - the overtaking rider does have an onus to do so without causing another rider to crash/get injured. They are also paid to perform/win races and ride aggressively if that is what is required. Rossi had no intention of falling over on that corner, it may have been an aggressive move or overly optimistic move but I don't have a problem with it as he was giving his best effort at that point in time. He fell and suddlenly his ambition is far greater than his talent, his shoulder is hanging out of its socket and we have another chapter in the Rossi/Stoner saga.



They don't like each other, their fans don't seem to like each other (at least on forums anyway) and that rivalry will keep on going making incidents, that would generally be brushed over if other riders, into big things. We've got one side calling for race suspensions, the other calling for fines for track invasions.



Look at how De Puniet's effort at Qatar was barely reported on compared to the showdown between the diva and the sook. (I figure I was fair here as I used a derogatory comment about both).

Why isn't De Puniet being crucified for injuring his teammate and wrecking his race? De Puniet has a reputation for being a nutter on a bike.
 

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