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I got banned!!
Geez mate, I am seriously thinking same club here
I wasn't banned but was made to feel very unwelcome so left it and went to run trackdays, motards (my first real love on two weheels) then to cars
Gaz
One thing is clear here, that allegiances are more heavily influencing comment than I've ever seen before, thus like-minds are agreeing and vehemently opposing the other side. And Vice-Versa-I would imagine if roles were reversed that the defense of Stoner would be much the same as how VR is being defended-probably worse. Therefore the hypothesis doesn't serve any real end, other than to continue to solidify the argument against and for.
No doubt it would be called a racing incident and that Casey had to take chances 'Win it or Bin it' I believe the phrase has been coined many times by Stoner fans.....as for how Rossi fans would have reacted to a role reversal, well...I would imagine it would have been pretty similar to Stoner Fans at present-probably worse. Kropo is having to delete posts from his site such is the outrage, so saying IMO a role-reversal would bring about any worse comments against the offender (they couldn't be!)is a bit rich, there would probably be just more of them due to fan numbers in majority on one side.
And calls for penalties on riders for taking out others in racing incidents is utterly ridiculous, and anyone who would like to see this should stick to supporting the time-trial format.
The fact of the matter is here in this thread anyway, is whether the marshals are to be slapped or not. No doubt it will bring about some sort of regulation or procedure.
No doubt it would be called a racing incident and that Casey had to take chances 'Win it or Bin it' I believe the phrase has been coined many times by Stoner fans.....as for how Rossi fans would have reacted to a role reversal, well...I would imagine it would have been pretty similar to Stoner Fans at present-probably worse. Kropo is having to delete posts from his site such is the outrage, so saying IMO a role-reversal would bring about any worse comments against the offender (they couldn't be!)is a bit rich, there would probably be just more of them due to fan numbers in majority on one side.
And calls for penalties on riders for taking out others in racing incidents is utterly ridiculous, and anyone who would like to see this should stick to supporting the time-trial format.
The fact of the matter is here in this thread anyway, is whether the marshals are to be slapped or not. No doubt it will bring about some sort of regulation or procedure.
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All the various differences aside... the one that stand out most glaringly is that Stoner never employed the win it or bin it
gambit with a result of knocking down another racer against whom he was incapable of competing against. In fact
Stoner is not known for knocking down or otherwise needlessly endangering other riders.
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im not sticking up for either one of them, its just too subjective if you arent there, but from the video, it looks like they marshalls were on rossi for 13 seconds, and on stoner for 20 seconds. maybe they ended up backing off from him because they thought the bike was farked, and they werent aware that it may have got going again? just putting it out there
Firstly, I don't think Rossi should receive any loss of points or suspension because of this. As Stoner said "it was a racing incident".
But, I would like to see some form of punishment. The Qatar divebomb at turn 1 & Jerez crash are showing a level of desparation & lack of concern to other riders which should be concerning to race officials. One can be overlooked but 2 in 2 races is getting a bit much. Some series have a clause in the rules for "causing an avoidable accident" & the consequences of this accident determine the punishment. This was an avoidable accident. As this aggressive riding is Rossi's modus operandi (especially the last 12 months) I would like to see a suspended 3 race ban hanging over his head for the next 10 races for example. Rossi has had his warnings now & unless there are consequences to his actions, he will continue to ride without fear of punishment. A suspended 3 race ban will put the emphasis on him to show more care when racing. If he stuffs up taking another rider out again, he won't be able to blame anyone but himself as he was well aware of the consequences of his actions.
He has 2 strikes now - 3 strikes & your out. Bye bye.
But, I would like to see some form of punishment. The Qatar divebomb at turn 1 & Jerez crash are showing a level of desparation & lack of concern to other riders which should be concerning to race officials. One can be overlooked but 2 in 2 races is getting a bit much. Some series have a clause in the rules for "causing an avoidable accident" & the consequences of this accident determine the punishment. This was an avoidable accident. As this aggressive riding is Rossi's modus operandi (especially the last 12 months) I would like to see a suspended 3 race ban hanging over his head for the next 10 races for example. Rossi has had his warnings now & unless there are consequences to his actions, he will continue to ride without fear of punishment. A suspended 3 race ban will put the emphasis on him to show more care when racing. If he stuffs up taking another rider out again, he won't be able to blame anyone but himself as he was well aware of the consequences of his actions.
He has 2 strikes now - 3 strikes & your out. Bye bye.
true, but this is more down to luck and circumstance, especially with some of his bins last year and in 06. Indy and Malaysia last season in particular, mugello in 06.
To memory, Rossi has only taken out a rider twice due to a mistake and fault of his own. Considering the amount of races he's competed in and how many of those he has been at the
sharp end racing for the lead, his record is extrodinary.
These calls for Rossi to be singled out and punished are nothing but bias slander. For any of the umteenth riders that crashed out on the weekend could have been responsible for taking out someone else or inavertently causing loss of place etc.
Singling out Rossi for punishment is the same as saying he meant to take Stoner out, and if you believe this....well......
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im not sticking up for either one of them, its just too subjective if you arent there, but from the video, it looks like they marshalls were on rossi for 13 seconds, and on stoner for 20 seconds. maybe they ended up backing off from him because they thought the bike was farked, and they werent aware that it may have got going again? just putting it out there
I was also thinking along these lines, they probably just thought the bike was finished, and lesson learned to all honda riders. .... it keep the engine running if bump starting is that hard. I just hope Casey can catch back up.
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I bet Honda are trying to fix this right now.
Anyway, the engine rule has reared it ugly head, sux riders have to think about engine life in addition to the racing. Stupid.
Good grief you people do analize stuff
, I peesonally just saw a racing incident no matter which way round, an unfortunate accident that to me at least spoilt the race.
As for who was involved if it had been 2 other riders am pretty sure this thread wouldnt exist.
As for the marshalling that was pretty appauling all race!
As for who was involved if it had been 2 other riders am pretty sure this thread wouldnt exist.
As for the marshalling that was pretty appauling all race!
As someone else has pointed out, stoner has not even come close to causing a crash with another rider in the last 4 years, and it could be argued is the most scrupulous rider in the field in terms of not causing problems for other riders other than by beating them. His previous last crash involving other riders was in his rookie year in 2006, involved him overcooking it and following riders crashing into him, arguably philosophically different than deliberately deciding to attempt an over-ambitious overtaking manoeuvre, not that this is any consolation to the other riders involved in the crash obviously.
The marshall thing is a furphy,other than somebody actually posting at the time of the incident that just as many marshalls helped stoner as helped rossi, demonstrating the mind -set of some rossi fans. I personally think marshalls should not be able to help riders re-start at all, and this was the rule in most motor sport in my youth; I am not sure I would advocate this at the moment given the size of the field, and if only for that reason dorna won't do it either.
You have also conveniently ignored, applying your usual method of selective argument, that kropotkin had to delete posts from both camps.
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I think your suggestion of a suspended 3 race ban is an excellent and proportional response. After all the goal is not to just punish Rossi but to make the rules apply to him and to make him understand that he has a duty of care to his fellow competitors.
In isolation this incident is definitely a racing incident. But this incident can not be viewed in isolation, it must be viewed in the context of the intention that has been demonstrated repeatedly. To me the intention is that a pass will be made with out thought or care for the effect the pass may have on the competitor.
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I haven't read (or recall) anybody saying Rossi meant to take out Stoner. Have you? However, I do believe Rossi tried to buzz him. Its simple intimidation, and its worked for Rossi in the past. I know you don't believe Rossi using this tactic Talps, but its my opinion that he uses this from several tactics to beat his rivals.
Rossi should NOT be signed out, but rather ANYBODY should be signed out if race direction wasn't so weak in maintaining a certain level of racecraft among its professional competitors. I've seen other riders penalized for less stuff, ie John Hopkins. You guys keep telling us just how extremely talented he is, surely that talent and experience is aware that a move like that dive bomb would end in a crash. I won't take credit, but JohnnyK was telling me that Rossi should have exercised more caution considering that he had zero tests and practice sessions under wet conditions on the Ducati (except for a small warm up).
Rossi isn't the only one employing dive bomb moves putting other riders in the predicament that they must move out of the way. Rossi fans and media alike celebrated what amounted to be an out of control dive bomb at Laguna 08. People still today celebrate it as a supreme calculated racecraft maneuver. Do you? But it was NOT. Everybody knows these guys make mistakes, in fact Talps; the crash this weekend was a mistake (the only thing here left to debate is if that mistake was caused from overly aggressive riding or a good faith mistake). But my opnion is, it wasn't an ordinary mistake. It happened while trying to make an overly aggressive pass. It’s this type of maneuvers that is NOT racecraft. Spies, only his second year in the series, has been putting on a clinic on proper race craft passing.
Certain riders have a reputation for aggressive riding. Simonchelli, DeAngelis, Rossi, You may add names because we all know who they are), etc. It’s not simply a blind hate for Rossi. It’s a simple undeniable observation that these men employ a tactic that other riders chose not to use. Would you say fore example that Edwards, Nicky, Dovi ride aggressively? No right? They don’t have that reputation. I BLAME RACE DIRECTION first and foremost! They have almost never applied any sanctions to curb such poor racing etiquette and racecraft. I know you may laugh at this because you are such a staunch Rossi fan. Like J4rno, who seems so normal; yet is so out of touch with reality when it comes to Ducati's all out blitz to provide solutions in development, or as he says, all routine nothing exceptional is happening. You are similar, you seem rather smart in some posts, but in others are so far on the extreme of reality that I must conclude you are crazy.
Ok. Let me say this again, I first and foremost blame race direction for their weak, if any, enforcement of professional race etiquette (you may laugh, that is until something like Elias taking out Rossi happens again, then you will be asking for his head on a platter). These aggressive riders do it with impunity because race direct never steps in. And may I add, I disagree with my friend Steeeeeeve in his assessment that crashing is the best deterrent to curb aggressive and reckless racing. NO sir, because these men are not like us, self-preservation takes a back seat. These men are like sharks, pit bulls, and racing is their blood.
Rossi's attempt to make an aggressive pass was reckless. It’s this type of reckless moves that should be addressed. Sadly, as in life, we are bickering about the schoolyard drama that ensued or splitting hairs about the marshals, while ignoring the actual root cause of this entire episode. We've been lucky so far; none of these recent aggressive moves have got people hurt, but its short sighted, because that is a result of dumb luck.
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This is absolute rubbish. On both occasions, Rossi did not break any rule/regulation or whatever. If riders are no longer allowed to ride aggressively and instead have to ride round with cotton wool between them and the next person, the sport will not be worth watching. Just about all accidents are avoidable - BUT THEY STILL HAPPEN. It is racing. These guys are paid to push bikes to the limit and occasionally they go beyond. There was barely any difference between Rossi's pass and Simonchelli's pass on Stoner - both had Stoner running wide, taking an outside line. One stuck, one didn't. Stoner didn't have to keep as close as he did if he thought that Rossi was at risk of falling/out of control. It was a racing incident. Move on, next issue.
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I respectfully disagree with your first point. It would be unfair to Rossi to now begin enforcing what race direction has failed to enforce for years. It’s to late now. But starting at Estoril, if Dorna had any integrity and race direction wasn't so scare to enforce racing professionalism, then they should have a sitdown with all the riders and say, from now on, if you make an overly aggressive move, we will not tolerate it. You will be black-flagged. If the problem persists, then you will serve a one-race suspension, and so forth. They should institute a mechanism for review (not just some dude in the booth saying, well, that didn't end in a crash, so its ok).
Rossi, and anybody else, going into Jerez figured it was racing under status quo/no-holds bar rules (and he would be correct in that assessment). But if you think Dorna will begin to sanction and enforce professional racecraft, please don't hold your breath. The only thing they care about is the show. Do you remember a few years back when the FIM prez (I think it was) came out and warned riders should act professional, bla bla bla. He was NOT talking about unsafe aggressive riding, but rather the shouting match that ensued (one in 250s and the other was between Hayden and DeAngelis, who had torpedoed him and Edwards). They saw the shouting match (and 250s head but) as ugly for the spectators. But didn't give one flying .... about the attempted murder using a GP machine at the hands of DeAngelis.
One thing people do NOT understand, these rider hold racing points in much higher regard than their own safety (much LESS the safety of others, and even less, the safety of those they view as RIVALS). It’s not enough to expect that the possibility of crashing is enough of a deterrent. They will take that risk. But when you start docking of points, for these mean, that really hurts.
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Woody my friend, there is actually a rule against reckless riding. The problem is, its a judgement call. So if somebody was to deem it overly agressive, then it would infact be breaking of a rule. Anway, there is a distinction between aggressive riding and reckless riding. Based on your logic, you condone all of it.
Please, no offense, but your second point, frankly is absurd. So Stoner shouldn't have been so close? Uhm, Rossi came from behind, and in a mili-second found himself in the predicament of hoping the crash he was in wouldn't result in injury. Tell me Woody, at what point should have Stoner stayed away, when Rossi's was behind him? When Rossi was half a bike length next to him, or the next hundredth of a second when the bikes were sliding out of control?
This is exactly what has encouraged Rossi to ride so aggressively against his rivals with impunity. He too is hoping his rivals will just clear out of his way.
I'm not saying they can't ride agressively, .... they're all aggressive as soon as the lights go out. What Rossi done was overly aggressive. As Jum stated, a part of this move was to buzz Stoner & intimidate him. Do you think he would have pulled this move on Hayden, for example? I don't think he would have.
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I haven't really noted anyone seriously calling for Rossi to be "punished" per se. But folks are censuring Rossi
for because he's the rider considered to be the top in the business - and under the circumstances - should know
better than to make such
A- a high-risk pass -
B- on a bike with a notoriously unstable front end -
C- in only his 2nd race on the bike -
D- in the rain -
E- only a few laps into the race when the tires were not up to temperature -
F- knowing full well that he was not going to be able to compete for the top spot -
G- especially because he's so hindered by his wonk shoulder
If it were only a question of one or two "poor risk" factors the move might be merely questionable
- but with all those elements strung together - any clear-eyed person has to conclude that Rossi's move
wasn't daring or ballsy - it was narcissistically thoughtless and irresponsible.
