Ducati in 2009

Have been following this forum for a long time, and I know this is an old subject, but there has never been a reasonable answer. Why is Stoner so much faster than Marco on the Duc.
Marco has not looked like getting anywhere near the front all year. It has been a .... year from start to end. He has not improved, and if anything has got worse. He's even worse in the wet. I don't believe he is trying too hard, because otherwise he would be falling - and he's not.
With one exception, the Alice bikes have been in the bottom 5 - 6 most of the year. If we can believe the spin, they are now basically factory spec bikes.
If it was not for Stoner the mighty Ducati would be looking about as good as Kawasaki. At least Loris was close to the front while he was on the Duc.
From history, we know Marco can ride, and the Alice guys are both good riders. The Ducati obviously has the speed to win races. Why are these guys doing so badly, and what does the future hold for Nicky.
Has Marco just given up.

On the flipside, are the Ducatis really not that good, or it is just that Stoner is bloody fast, and the only one with the balls to push the thing to the edge.
Maybe Marco is massivly overated after everyone suggested he would smash Stoner in 2008.
Maybe the Ducatis are very good but only Stoner is nuts enought to ride them on the limit. What would Rossi, Dovi or Pedro do on a Ducati ???
All of the other rteams, the riders are at similar levels. Even Lucky George is close to the pace of Rossi. The gap at Ducati is crazy.
What will Nicky do on the 2009 Ducati.

What does 2009 hold.
This is the make or break year for Nicky. He could be WC, he could be useless like Marco. I think the Ducati will be bloody fast in 2009, and Nicky will be a good measure of how fast Stoner really is.
What happens if Nicky goes to where Marco is now, and Mika does no better.
What if Marco is faster on the Kwaka than he has been on the Duc.
Will anyone beat Rossi ???

It's the same question we ask everytime there is a big form gap between team mates. How good was the 04 Yamaha? Was it actually brilliant but very particular to Rossi, was the results gap a function of prefferential treatment in the team (development and updates) or was it just the rider making a less impressive bike look better. Same can be asked of the 800cc Hondas and Dani/Nicky. I think there are probably elements of all of these factors.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Oct 22 2008, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What does 2009 hold.
This is the make or break year for Nicky. He ould be WC, he could be useless like Marco. I think the Ducati will be bloody fast in 2009, and Nicky will be a good measure of how fast Stoner really is.
What happens if Nicky goes to where Marco is now, and Mika does no better.
What if Marco is faster on the Kwaka than he has been on the Duc.
Will anyone beat Rossi ???



I think it is more a matter of style. Nicki is a dirt tracker and Casey does have those 40+ Australian dirt track titles as well as the 70+ state titles. They may not be motogp or world class titles but they both have that similar background.

I think that will be the telling factor. Not neat and linear like Marco, ragged and ugly. From where I was perched at Phillip Island the two “ugliest” riders were Casey and Nicki.

As for Nicki being the benchmark for how good Casey is Nicki has already come out and stated he has no illusion as to winning races like Casey on the Ducati (see this month’s Australian Motor Cycle News interview with Nicki). He does expect however to be up there and near enough the top to take the odd win and a few podiums. I say .... it Nicki, just take a few more wins, the ones that Dani may have taken...

The litmus test however for Casey was Marco. On this forum when everybody was still adhering to the remote control bike theory quite a few intelligent and generally thoughtful members picked Marco as the runaway world champ in motogp for 2008. What a difference a year can make...

8 riders have thrown a leg over that thing and only 1 has made it look better than a green beast (Loris did okay and “Contract time” did get a couple of podiums) or a Suzuki.

Here’s praying it’s two riders that can ride it.

I hope there are more than three riders next year that can handle it.Canepa should do reasonably well,Gibernau too as they have tried it and get the trust from the Ducati people to ride it.Hayden and Kallio is of course more uncertain.I think they will do ok though as devcelopement seems to make the bike more like the others(They take away the extreme caracteristics)The CF frame could make it more agile as has been said here.The power delivery gets smoother as with every other bike when the peak power is thought to be sufficient for the moment and so on.

On the other hand it has been said many times that the Duc. needs careful set up and it's maybe harder to find a good one than other bikes but it works really well if you get it right.
The other riders are not known for being good at finding good set up exept for Capirossi.I bet Capirossi would do quite well on the 2009 with improved stearing and powerdelivery.If that is the case.
Melandri is a whole different matter.
Every one involved with insight was stunned over his complete faliure and common sense sais that no one who really tries is that slow.

I doubt Stoner would do so well on a Yamaha, the Ducati is as perfect for Stoner as hes ever gonna find.. hes not a stylish or smooth rider and riding on the edge probably gives him a little more indication on when hes pushing too hard and gonna crash.

Although he still crashes under pressure

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anders GUZZI @ Oct 22 2008, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The CF frame could make it more agile as has been said here.
I think the characteristic flexing associated with his will really suit Nicky's style.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Oct 22 2008, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the characteristic flexing associated with his will really suit Nicky's style.
I hope he doesn't find it too strange anyway.And that he gels with the crew.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Oct 22 2008, 07:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the characteristic flexing associated with his will really suit Nicky's style.
Carbon fibre is structurally far more rigid than steel.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Oct 22 2008, 07:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think the characteristic flexing associated with his will really suit Nicky's style.
Carbon fibre is structurally far more rigid than steel.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lckwik350 @ Oct 22 2008, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Carbon fibre is structurally far more rigid than steel.
Correct, but it terms of chassis design it characteristically allows greater flex - this was the very hallmark/raison d'etre of that Cagiva that Mamola rode in the late 80's I think it was.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Oct 22 2008, 02:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think it is more a matter of style. Nicki is a dirt tracker and Casey does have those 40+ Australian dirt track titles as well as the 70+ state titles. They may not be motogp or world class titles but they both have that similar background.

I think that will be the telling factor. Not neat and linear like Marco, ragged and ugly. From where I was perched at Phillip Island the two “ugliest” riders were Casey and Nicki.

As for Nicki being the benchmark for how good Casey is Nicki has already come out and stated he has no illusion as to winning races like Casey on the Ducati (see this month’s Australian Motor Cycle News interview with Nicki). He does expect however to be up there and near enough the top to take the odd win and a few podiums. I say .... it Nicki, just take a few more wins, the ones that Dani may have taken...

The litmus test however for Casey was Marco. On this forum when everybody was still adhering to the remote control bike theory quite a few intelligent and generally thoughtful members picked Marco as the runaway world champ in motogp for 2008. What a difference a year can make...

8 riders have thrown a leg over that thing and only 1 has made it look better than a green beast (Loris did okay and “Contract time” did get a couple of podiums) or a Suzuki.

Here’s praying it’s two riders that can ride it.

I grew up in the 60's & 70's when the AMA grand national title consisted of road racing, 1/2 mile dirt track (ovals), TT's (kidney shaped dirt track), short track (small ovals, paved or dirt), 1 mile oval dirt tracks (Nick has never won a mile , btw). A clay mile with its 5 abreast 120 mph corner entry speeds is more exciting & difficult as most road races. It was this multi-venue process that produced American greats - Cal Rayborn, Ken Roberts Sr. Spencer, Lawson, Rainey, Mamola, all had exposure to this type of riding (KR, Sr. on the infamous Indy mile on the TZ700 dirt tracker). I don't know about Aussi style dirt track, but I think the U.S. should go back to the multi-venue platform for the grand national series (there can still be RR & dirt track specialists), but the grand national should return to creating the kind racers we created 20 years ago (imho)!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Oct 22 2008, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Correct, but it terms of chassis design it characteristically allows greater flex - this was the very hallmark/raison d'etre of that Cagiva that Mamola rode in the late 80's I think it was.
I think the whole idea with CF frame on the duc. is to make it lighter up by the stearing head,above and in front of the engine to make stearing lighter,and making the bike more agile.It has always been harder to stear and flick side to side than others.According to Capirossi that was his biggest issue with it.Fixing the flexing characteristics probarbly is in the idea too.