developing a bike

bigbang said:

What exactly is developing a bike from a rider's point of view? In my opinion a rider has to:



1) find the best setup for a bike and give feedback to the engineers (and i think there isn't a "best" setup in an absolute sense, each rider has it's own preferences)

2) evaluate new parts



Now how does that work? I imagine a rider simply reports what behavior of a bike is ok and what does not work for him. (For example front feeling, traction, direction changing, stability under braking, wheel spin and stuff like that). When something can't be solved just by changing the setup then usually a team brings something new and then the rider tries the bike and just says ok that problem got solved (or at least it got better) or nope it's still the same. Is my view too simplistic? Is there anything else a rider can do?



I think all top riders, Stoner, Rossi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa.... are very good at developing a bike and I can't understand why some fans seems to think otherwise.

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I imagine they all are. I think fans lose perspective sometimes and forget these are the top riders in the world. And when comparing one rider to another, minor, and I'm talking very minor differences in skill get amplified way out of proportion.



eg:



Rider 1)is awesome at random skill



Rider 2) is slightly less awesome at same skill.



Conclusion: Rider 2) is a scrub.

Oh, why not take this off on a tangent.



What is developing a bike?



Why is it the rider's responsibility?



What meaningful input can a rider provide that cannot be reflected or captured by the telemetry?



Why do we, the fan place so much emphasis on a 'rider' developing a bike?



My take.



No rider is there to 'develop' a bike for anyone other than them selves to go supremely fast on and then by develop IMO a riders input stops at set-up. Yes a rider may ask for a (example here) chassis that does not flex to the level shown by the telemetry, or forks of a thicker diameter or what not, but it is not their job to develop them, the days of John Britten are over.



No rider would be happy being asked to 'develop' a bike that would allow someone they see as a competitor to receive benefit from that first riders hard work and skills, just as no business likes a competitor receiving benefit from that business's hard work. Why do we expect riders to provide a benefit to their competitor?



Now, hypocritically here but I do think there are some riders who will try to improve the lot of their competitors in terms of equipment as this is their primary function within a team and sadly these so called test mules are generally not seen as valid threats to the main rider/s (no offence intended) and so their hard work will not be of benefit to them.



For me, no rider develops a bike but they work as part of a team to find areas of improvement taht need further development













Gaz

bigbang said:

What exactly is developing a bike from a rider's point of view? In my opinion a rider has to:



1) find the best setup for a bike and give feedback to the engineers (and i think there isn't a "best" setup in an absolute sense, each rider has it's own preferences)

2) evaluate new parts



Now how does that work? I imagine a rider simply reports what behavior of a bike is ok and what does not work for him. (For example front feeling, traction, direction changing, stability under braking, wheel spin and stuff like that). When something can't be solved just by changing the setup then usually a team brings something new and then the rider tries the bike and just says ok that problem got solved (or at least it got better) or nope it's still the same. Is my view too simplistic? Is there anything else a rider can do?



I think all top riders, Stoner, Rossi, Lorenzo, Pedrosa.... are very good at developing a bike and I can't understand why some fans seems to think otherwise.

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A rider must also recognise when an improvement is made to the machine in one area it can often be to the detriment of another and summise if the overall package has been improved or not.



It seems to me that the only people making a big deal out of this bike development superiority are the hardcore Rossi zealots as usual......it could be argued that this is now the only area in which he has superiority of the other aliens and the yellow flock cling to this notion with utter desperation....I prefer to think that he, in combination with JB, are possibly still the best development TEAM in the paddock but this is just pure speculation on my part.



Stoner is faster and a more adaptable pilot. Jlo is at least as fast and is now as consistent and Pedro on his day is equally as fast if not faster.

Mr Squiggle said:

A rider must also recognise when an improvement is made to the machine in one area it can often be to the detriment of another and summise if the overall package has been improved or not.



It seems to me that the only people making a big deal out of this bike development superiority are the hardcore Rossi zealots as usual......it could be argued that this is now the only area in which he has superiority of the other aliens and the yellow flock cling to this notion with utter desperation....I prefer to think that he, in combination with JB, are possibly still the best development TEAM in the paddock but this is just pure speculation on my part.



Stoner is faster and a more adaptable pilot. Jlo is at least as fast and is now as consistent and Pedro on his day is equally as fast if not faster.

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I think (think being the operative word) that Rossi is able to convey what is going on with the bike very well to his team. A team that has been together for quite some time, and so, speak his "language". They in turn can put that info to good use straight away. I dont think he is any better than anyone else at setting up, he and his team just understand each other really well.

digger said:

I think (think being the operative word) that Rossi is able to convey what is going on with the bike very well to his team. A team that has been together for quite some time, and so, speak his "language". They in turn can put that info to good use straight away. I dont think he is any better than anyone else at setting up, he and his team just understand each other really well.

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Then why does he not have a win on it yet

bluegreen said:

Rider 1)is awesome at random skill



Rider 2) is slightly less awesome at same skill.



Conclusion: Rider 2) is a scrub.

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Motorcycle racing forum debate encapsulated in three sentences.

Mr Squiggle said:

A rider must also recognise when an improvement is made to the machine in one area it can often be to the detriment of another and summise if the overall package has been improved or not.



It seems to me that the only people making a big deal out of this bike development superiority are the hardcore Rossi zealots as usual......it could be argued that this is now the only area in which he has superiority of the other aliens and the yellow flock cling to this notion with utter desperation....I prefer to think that he, in combination with JB, are possibly still the best development TEAM in the paddock but this is just pure speculation on my part.



Stoner is faster and a more adaptable pilot. Jlo is at least as fast and is now as consistent and Pedro on his day is equally as fast if not faster.

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Hmmm... you might have something there.

Keshav said:

Hmmm... you might have something there.

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Again its just pure speculation

BarryMachine said:

Then why does he not have a win on it yet

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I never said anything about him sending the setup in the direction of a race winning machine. I merely said that the team and him understand each other well and seem to be able to give Rossi what he wants in the way of setup. Maybe he is too old now and just cant keep up with the younger guys, somewhat like if you tried to ride against me...... hahaha jk barry

digger said:

I never said anything about him sending the setup in the direction of a race winning machine. I merely said that the team and him understand each other well and seem to be able to give Rossi what he wants in the way of setup. Maybe he is too old now and just cant keep up with the younger guys, somewhat like if you tried to ride against me...... hahaha jk barry

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dont listen to barry he wont see reason unless you mention stoner.... the recomendations rossi and jb have given to ducati cant just be done in a week or two you will prob see the bits to fix some flaws mid season.



anyway gathering from what furuwassa says, rossi is a master at bike development and spotting problems, he says rossi is not just a racer but like an engineer to... anyway im sure if you hunt around you will find the interview.



most of the top riders have good development skills otherwise they wouldnt be at the pointy end.

The only other rider on the grid that I know of who has a reputation of being able to develope is Colin Edwards with the RC51.

hawkdriver said:

The only other rider on the grid that I know of who has a reputation of being able to develope is Colin Edwards with the RC51.

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yes that true, he is also the one who develops on the electronics side of things with yamaha, they havent just kept him for the fun of it

Mr Squiggle said:

A rider must also recognise when an improvement is made to the machine in one area it can often be to the detriment of another and summise if the overall package has been improved or not.



It seems to me that the only people making a big deal out of this bike development superiority are the hardcore Rossi zealots as usual......it could be argued that this is now the only area in which he has superiority of the other aliens and the yellow flock cling to this notion with utter desperation....I prefer to think that he, in combination with JB, are possibly still the best development TEAM in the paddock but this is just pure speculation on my part.



Stoner is faster and a more adaptable pilot. Jlo is at least as fast and is now as consistent and Pedro on his day is equally as fast if not faster.

Click to expand...

In this month's Australian Motor Cycle News JB is interviewed and stated that Stoner was a double edged sword for Ducati, he states (inter alia) that Stoner will ride a far more dangerous bike than Valentino, and that in riding around the problems (and JB uses the term supreme talent) he didn't facilitate the development of the bike as a more rounded GP machine that other riders could use.



He stated that Valentino spends all the time thinking about riding the bike and not about his race strategy, as riding the machine is a drain on concentration, you cannot just relax and think about the race, it is all about just riding the bloody thing.



When Casey began to fail on the machine Ducati turned and blamed Casey which was according to Burgess a mistake, as when the only rider who could ride around the bikes problems could no longer do it they were left with very little to work with.



That said a crew chief like JB is far more inclined to listen to their rider and would probably have never let the Stoner Ducati issue get as far as it did.



Developing a bike is something that Rossi can do (and Stoner is yet to master) as the Rossi JB team developed such a rounded bike that Rossi's team mate was able to upstage him on for last years world championship.



Developing a bike is just having clear communication between a factory, team and rider.

Andy Roo said:

In this month's Australian Motor Cycle News JB is interviewed and stated that Stoner was a double edged sword for Ducati, he states (inter alia) that Stoner will ride a far more dangerous bike than Valentino, and that in riding around the problems (and JB uses the term supreme talent) he didn't facilitate the development of the bike as a more rounded GP machine that other riders could use.



He stated that Valentino spends all the time thinking about riding the bike and not about his race strategy, as riding the machine is a drain on concentration, you cannot just relax and think about the race, it is all about just riding the bloody thing.



When Casey began to fail on the machine Ducati turned and blamed Casey which was according to Burgess a mistake, as when the only rider who could ride around the bikes problems could no longer do it they were left with very little to work with.



That said a crew chief like JB is far more inclined to listen to their rider and would probably have never let the Stoner Ducati issue get as far as it did.



Developing a bike is something that Rossi can do (and Stoner is yet to master) as the Rossi JB team developed such a rounded bike that Rossi's team mate was able to upstage him on for last years world championship.



Developing a bike is just having clear communication between a factory, team and rider.

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Thanks for that Andy...I am not living in Oz at the moment so I dont have access to AMCN which is always a good read.



The crux of this article suggests Stoners "supreme talent" made them lazy which seems to reinforce what I was and others have been saying/thinking. If Ducati were ignoring the issues with the bike then how in the hell could the lack of development be blamed on him.



Rossi/JB do have a proven track record in this department....of that there is no doubt. Stoner now has an opportunity to prove he can develop a motorcycle just as well. Unfortunately the zealots will then of course point to his team mates as those responsible if this scenario does eventuate and the bike continues to improve.



The bopper "book of excuses" will again be consulted to explain his results.

Mr Squiggle said:

Thanks for that Andy...I am not living in Oz at the moment so I dont have access to AMCN which is always a good read.



The crux of this article suggests Stoners "supreme talent" made them lazy which seems to reinforce what I was and others have been saying/thinking. If Ducati were ignoring the issues with the bike then how in the hell could the lack of development be blamed on him.



Rossi/JB do have a proven track record in this department....of that there is no doubt. Stoner now has an opportunity to prove he can develop a motorcycle just as well. Unfortunately the zealots will then of course point to his team mates as those responsible if this scenario does eventuate and the bike continues to improve.



The bopper "book of excuses" will again be consulted to explain his results.

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Wrong book Mr S, thats the "Encyclopedia Stoner Bullshitarrarlis". It is a complete listing of Stoners whinging, from A-Z. That pic is only A-K.



Hehehe, just poking .... mate

digger said:

Wrong book Mr S, thats the "Encyclopedia Stoner Bullshitarrarlis". It is a complete listing of Stoners whinging, from A-Z. That pic is only A-K.



Hehehe, just poking .... mate

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Hehe me too

SO what some of you are saying is that we should really look at how the other Ducati riders are going ....... to assess how good Rossi is at development ?



This really is a fairytale subject ........ especially since most of the arguments are based on how it is assumed Rossi will get the bike going ....... some time in the future

Andy Roo said:

In this month's Australian Motor Cycle News JB is interviewed and stated that Stoner was a double edged sword for Ducati, he states (inter alia) that Stoner will ride a far more dangerous bike than Valentino, and that in riding around the problems (and JB uses the term supreme talent) he didn't facilitate the development of the bike as a more rounded GP machine that other riders could use.



He stated that Valentino spends all the time thinking about riding the bike and not about his race strategy, as riding the machine is a drain on concentration, you cannot just relax and think about the race, it is all about just riding the bloody thing.



When Casey began to fail on the machine Ducati turned and blamed Casey which was according to Burgess a mistake, as when the only rider who could ride around the bikes problems could no longer do it they were left with very little to work with.



That said a crew chief like JB is far more inclined to listen to their rider and would probably have never let the Stoner Ducati issue get as far as it did.



Developing a bike is something that Rossi can do (and Stoner is yet to master) as the Rossi JB team developed such a rounded bike that Rossi's team mate was able to upstage him on for last years world championship.



Developing a bike is just having clear communication between a factory, team and rider.

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Wow I said the same exact thing and was branded a hater, hahahahaha where are you Kesh.

BarryMachine said:

SO what some of you are saying is that we should really look at how the other Ducati riders are going ....... to assess how good Rossi is at development ?

This really is a fairytale subject ........ especially since most of the arguments are based on how it is assumed Rossi will get the bike going ....... some time in the future

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Ultimately this is true, if Rossi is good at developing the bike it will improve for all the riders on it.



Mind you the role that Jeremy Burgess plays in this will be huge, he has been the crew chief to the stars for a lot of years, Valentino gets a lot of Kudos for bike development but JB is the other half to it, and I would argue any rider would go well to have Burgess in their corner.